Futurity and stallion testing?

[boxffrogs]

In the last few weeks, I have seen either live, or by video or have heard about stallions, stallion parades and stallion gradings, all of which have had poor, very poor and down right shocking stallions and results.

1 - Belton - I saw the video and IMO more than half of those stallions were horrible and should never have been graded (although two of them weren't, but are still stallions).
2 - Several stallions that I have been and seen recently should have been cut as yearlings.
3 - rumours about one stallion at The AES grading that stopped several times, showed a very good rein back (unasked for) and failed to complete the course after the fourth fence. Apparently it is now graded at the age of ten, only jumps foxhunter courses (at 10????), but was ridden by a well known jockey....................

So to my point: why isn't the Futurity used as the de facto way of testing two and three year old stallions? Surely this would be the most fair and objective method of testing, as well as being a far more efficient way?

 

[eventrider23]

Actually you have a point Boxoffrogs - I have thought this myself that the futurity results could well be taken into account for gradings....the stallion Zubin R for example was one who was Champion SJer at the BEF Futurity in 2007 - with a 10 for conformation....and he failed his SHBGB grading on conformation...very controversial at the time...he then has since gone on to be 1st stage approved with the KWPN and qualified I think fo rthe Bundeschampionat last year.....

 

[koeffee]

you have a very good point, but i feel aes stallion grading is not what you know but who you know, send your horse to the right person and you can bet your life savings on it passing

 

[Diggory]

[ QUOTE ]
the stallion Zubin R for example was one who was Champion SJer at the BEF Futurity in 2007 - with a 10 for conformation....and he failed his SHBGB grading on conformation...very controversial at the time...he then has since gone on to be 1st stage approved with the KWPN and qualified I think fo rthe Bundeschampionat last year.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, his scores were 9.5 for type, 9.5 for conformation, 9.75 for correctness of gaits and the perfect 10 was for his athleticism over a fence. His vet mark was 8.75. This gave him an average score of 9.5.

 

[nomis]

It seems the connections of Zubin R were also a little "peeved" at their results:

Newspaper Article

Article 2

Previous discussions on HHO:
Zubin R

 

[sarahhelen1977]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a very good point, but i feel aes stallion grading is not what you know but who you know, send your horse to the right person and you can bet your life savings on it passing

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be the case in some situations, but I am not a 'name', I produced and presented my stallion myself and he was licensed - sometimes they grade because they are good stallions!!

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]

So to my point: why isn't the Futurity used as the de facto way of testing two and three year old stallions? Surely this would be the most fair and objective method of testing, as well as being a far more efficient way?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only de facto test of a stallion is the success- or not- of his offspring in the discipline for which they were bred; or possibly in a discipline for which they were not bred.

The Futurity, therefore, is a tool; an enourmously useful tool and a showcase for good production, but I don't believe it can be more than this; the judges may be experienced but they cannot see into the future.

The youth of the horses brought forward also poses problems for slow maturers or "ugly" foals who develop unevenly, where the breeder is in the best position to predict whether the animal will grow into a worthwhile adult, but the Futurity judges could hardly be expected to give it a positive score.

No, the Futurity is a good thing but it would lessen its usefulness it to try to make it do something it is not designed for.

 

[Thefuture]

Fully agree - futurity is for young potential sports horses/ponies and those invovled in the judging/assessments may or may not have the right knowledge to approve colts as stallion potential. Two totally different issues.

 

[no_no_nanette]

I completely agree, alleycat .... I guess that the problem appears to be from the various posts about this a lack of trust in the various stallion grading bodies, and a suspicion that decisions are influenced not by objective judgements about the worth of the animal as a breeding stallion but by who you know, or the good old back-scratching syndrome. I think it would be interesting to hear different opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of the current system, and what should change. Do we need an entirely new sports horse body that would be genuinely objective and rigorous about its stallion gradings, would use external judges who had no axe to grind/direct personal interest as a breeder themselves - and should these be based upon 30 and 70 day tests? How should offspring success come into it? Or is it a question of the current organisations - SHBGB and the AES -cleaning up their act? What would give their judgements more credibility?

 

[eventrider23]

I do think though that there should eb some comparison in the 3 yr old section with regards to the fact that the gradings should correlate in some way if for example a 3 yr old colt was presented at the futurity and then a few months later at a grading....the confo and vet marks should at least be similar (not the same fair enough as being done on different day, different people, etc) however the case of Zubin R is a very true one in that in the case of the futurity he scored highly but then failed in some of teh same scoring sections at the grading...fair enough the graders said that the futurity does not judge potential as a stallion...only as aocmpetition horse...however, surely conformation is conformation and thus this should be no different if a stallion or a gelding???

 

[LynneB]

I think one of the problems of having the futurity judge a 3 year old as a stallion prospect is that some go through enormous maturity changes after that and become much better looking all round.

Wasn't Belton only 2 weeks ago? Bit harsh to expect the owners to have rushed out and gelded those who did not grade already....I also would not describe anyone else's horse as "horrible" no matter what anyone else's view is, or whether he is a stallion prospect or not, it is still rather offensive.

There is certainly room for improvement all round though

 

[eventrider23]

Breeze_Mum - Belton was only a stallion parade - not a grading - I know (I think) which stallion BoF if speaking of and I have to agree they should not be stallions....both are old enough (think one is a 9 yr old) and neither is graded or proven itself in any way as a stallion. Both are nice horses and honest, etc with a novice owner, but in no way good enough to be stallions.

 

[boxffrogs]

Some interesting responses.

Perhaps I could ask the question in a slightly different way;

Should the Futurity (and it would perhaps require a name change) become, by expansion, the statutory method of approval/grading/licensing in this country?

A three year old colt going to a futurity is surely being assessed on it's type, confo etc. If everything is good on that front, and it jumps beautifully and moves very well (regardless of it's intended sport), it's not the wildest leap of faith to believe that the judges (OK, perhaps a bit more bulked up in the first few years by foreign judges, no offense intended) could make a sane decision about that colt's suitablility as a breeding stallion.

This would provide a sound (although not without argument and strops at times) centralised, standardised and credible method of stallion testing. I have to admit that I would personally prefer one central stud book system like they have in the German regions, Holland and France. Certainly the odd badn' will get through these controls, but nothing like the number I've seen so far this season in this country.

Regarding Belton, from what I saw on the video, only two of the eleven should be approved/graded etc. and they both stood out head, shoulders and belly button above the others, wow factor notwithstanding.

The AES grading turned into a debacle with the "three gears in reverse" stallion ridden by the well known rider. Who, after all, wants to use a ten year old stallion that never graded in it's country of origin, and is only jumping 1.20m classes? It certainly wouldn't get approved abroad, so why here?......................Does anyone know if the horse actually completed the course???

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly the odd badn' will get through these controls, but nothing like the number I've seen so far this season in this country.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would have to disagree; a grading IMO should not be a policing system for weeding out "bad'ns" but a tool for breeders to help them assess the strengths and weaknesses of breeding stock. Unfortunately grading isn't the whole picture; would that it were that easy! A workmanlike, plain horse might well be a good performer, in competition and /or at stud whereas the horse, on the face of it "head, shoulders and belly button above the others, wow factor notwithstanding" may be a poor stock producer or unable to stay sound in competition. We just don't know, and gradings won't tell us.

I really think most breeders apply some judgement when it comes to choosing sires; they don't really need to be protected against the sort of "bad'ns" you mention; far more dangerous is the apparently high class animal which presents as attractive and sound but which has hidden weaknesses.

I think our need, here, is really for NED, up, functioning, complete and maybe extended, so that the hidden qualities, good and bad, of stallions as performers and stock producers become evident.

 

[boxffrogs]

Well, when your system (what ever it is) beats (with medals in championships) the German, French, Dutch and even the Belgians, I'll use it. But your system looks a bit "faith based" and relies on a highly educated market..........................................................................................................................................

Nature is a process of selection, sporthorses should be dealt with in the same way, purely by selection. If they don't make it at the right time? Tough. Pandering to an underclass isn't very pro Darwin, especially when "hope" and "I'm sure he'll grow into something good" are methods of filtering.

I do agree with you about the need to find out what is good and bad and what stock stallions produce. It's why I have always used foreign stallions, because the information available is generally based on fact rather than ill formed opinion or who shouts the loudest.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Nature is a process of selection, sporthorses should be dealt with in the same way, purely by selection. [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The process by which Nature selects is by fitness for purpose.

If your purpose is to pass gradings or to look good at stallion parades, then clearly these animals are fit.

If it is to produce stock which do the same, then until those stock are doing it, it's only an indication of fitness.

If your purpose is to win in competition or, even further down the line (although this, I would suggest, is the be all and end all of why we need to keep stallions at all) to produce stock which will themselves compete- it is again, just an indication.

As to [ QUOTE ]
If they don't make it at the right time? Tough.


[/ QUOTE ]suggests someone who does not realise that you cannot dictate brilliance and demand that it is accompanied by precocity.

If you bred a colt that looked like a worldbeater but was immature and gangly, you would geld it rather than give it another year? Really? Why?

 

[shirleyno2]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, when your system (what ever it is) beats (with medals in championships) the German, French, Dutch and even the Belgians, I'll use it. But your system looks a bit "faith based" and relies on a highly educated market..........................................................................................................................................

Nature is a process of selection, sporthorses should be dealt with in the same way, purely by selection. If they don't make it at the right time? Tough. Pandering to an underclass isn't very pro Darwin, especially when "hope" and "I'm sure he'll grow into something good" are methods of filtering.

I do agree with you about the need to find out what is good and bad and what stock stallions produce. It's why I have always used foreign stallions, because the information available is generally based on fact rather than ill formed opinion or who shouts the loudest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find that statiscally the named countries above, all breed a lot more horses than the UK.
From your grammar I'm presuming you are a "foreigner", so I don't expect you to understand the British breeding ethics.
Re the "Tough" comment - ridiculous, all horses are different Individuals, with different bloodlines maturing at different ages.
It also obviously takes many years for an island the size of the UK to have a stallion with enough progeny to judge him.
It has nothing to do with who shouts loudest!!!!! It's who produces the goods, ie winnings.

 

[stolensilver]

Zubin R isn't the first time SHB(GB) have failed a Futurity winner is it? They did the same to Furst Opera, yet he scored 10/10 for type in his Futurity assessment.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/08/002.shtml

Another stallion they initially failed was Chilli Morning (allegedly on front leg conformation) despite him being a proven and very successful eventer. Shortly after the grading that he failed he was passed, not sure what path was used to achieve that. Perhaps his competition results?

It is concerning that there is such a gulf between the opinions of two sets of official assessors of young horses. I suppose SHB(GB) could claim they are assessing for stallion potential rather than sportshorse potential but, in truth, how can anyone possibly know which young colt will make a good stallion if he has a good temperament, good athleticism and appears to be built for the job?

 

[Maesfen]

TBF, until comparatively recently, a stallion with a competition record, unless it was from the racecourse, was virtually unknown but it did not stop the former HIS, now SHBGB stallions from having a pretty good reputation for providing the goods in various disciplines to the highest level from eventing, show jumping, dressage and racing, some very good quality show horses let alone sensible all round pleasure horses for amateur riders. By highest levels I'm meaning Grand National winners, Olympic Gold Medallists, World Champions, European Champions and the like so not so run of the mill but all sired by HIS Premium stallions.
The stallions chosen were usually ex or untried racehorses and they went through a stringent assessment at a well attended two day show in Newmarket. There was and still is, fierce competition between stallion owners to find the next winner of the King George V Champion Challenge Cup.
.All in all, the stallions graded made jolly good sport horse producers to suit the majority of our riders, be they professional or not, so their graders must have been getting something right, surely? It would be a great shame to turn your back on them entirely for the sake of fashionable horses that don't always suit a lot of people, I feel.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
It is concerning that there is such a gulf between the opinions of two sets of official assessors of young horses. I suppose SHB(GB) could claim they are assessing for stallion potential rather than sportshorse potential but, in truth, how can anyone possibly know which young colt will make a good stallion if he has a good temperament, good athleticism and appears to be built for the job?

[/ QUOTE ]

As both a stallion grader and an evaluator I have to say that the main differnce between the two procedures are that:

(i) in the Futurity the key factor for stallion quality 'masculinity' is not assessed so this can affect the type mark
(ii) there are no vet scores in stallion gradings in the country as the 5-stage vetting for hereditary disease is all that is required, whereas the vet score in the Futurity is for both on-the-day and long-term soundness which is a far more complex and subtle assessment than just conformation and show-ring attractiveness
(iii) Sadly I think that the evaluators in the Futurity -- becuase of their wealth of experience across the breeds and disciplines -- are far more likely to be aware of the different rates of maturity in the different bloodlines / breeds than are some of the grading judges used in this country. Becuase they are always looking at the horse not the handler, they are also able to identify animals that have considerable potential but have not been produced to 'stallion grading' fitness becuase their owners do not have the time / expertise / inclination to do this, so 'faceyness' is certainly not a problem in Futurity assessments.

Even so, when assessing a stallion's potential -- in addition but NEVER separately from -- his future as a sports horse / pony I am always led by Dr Haring's guideline statement to all studbooks that 'A stallion must be a riding horse PLUS'. The plus is absolute correctness and athlecticism plus natural presence. In a good stallion this will shine through even if he is not 'cranked up a gear' for grading or a parade as it is something so inherent in him that it will be obvious even when you see him as a lean (hopefully ) unfurnished yearling colt playing the in the field with his friends (I also believe that if you can't spot this consistently in the rough then you should not be grading stallions). It is a world away from what his producer makes of him as a correctly presented young colt for grading and if he doesn't have that deep-rooted WOW factor in that situation (something that shines through however flat or tired or immature he is) then I am afraid he does not have stallion quality for me.

Interestingly there was one entire colt (note that I do not desribe him as a stallion ) that was presented to the Futurity and did pretty well but which I did not realise was not a gelding until I saw him a few months later at a stallion grading (ie his natural masculinity was pretty much totally non-existent but he was still a very good riding horse without the PLUS ) and he didn't grade even though he had quite good conformation marks with the studbook concerned. When people asked me later why this was I said that he was not (and never could be) a stallion for me for just that reason but that was not relevant to his Futurity assessment and his potential as a competition horse was not affected.

The Zubin R fiasco was something completely different though and -- with Lupicor's owner considering him one of the best Lupicor sons around and his own consistent success in young horse classes in Germany - is a complete mystery to many top European sj breeders who are completely perplexed at what some British studbooks appear to want.

OTOH, following in the steps of Dimaggio a few years ago, Boston (Bob of course ) is doing very well at stud in Germany so perhaps that says something about the different selection methods of the UK studbooks concerned. It is certainly helping the international reputation of the WBSUK anyway.

One final point: foreign studbooks reject a huge number of potntial colts when they are rising 3 years old and it is not maturity that is the deciding factor here, it is always the riding horse PLUS quality or lack of it that counts. The judges know how mature/ immature a colt of specific bloodlines should be at that age and they also know what to count and discount to make that assessment. Perhaps that is the real lesson we need to learn from the most successful studbooks abroad, after all it is a system has been producing medal winning horses -- and even schoolmasters and good amateur riding horses for all levels of riders -- for them for years so it cannot be too incorrect a basis for assessing a stallion's potential.

 

[boxffrogs]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bred a colt that looked like a worldbeater but was immature and gangly

[/ QUOTE ] ?????????? what horse in this world is gangly and immature and looks like a world beater at the same time?

[ QUOTE ]
If it is to produce stock which do the same, then until those stock are doing it, it's only an indication of fitness.

[/ QUOTE ] The European studbooks base their decisions on this, and they beat us hands down every time.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, the stallions graded made jolly good sport horse producers to suit the majority of our riders

[/ QUOTE ] That won how many medals outside of eventing?

The "horses are individuals" comment is the same as "all children are equal" and rewarding a child for coming last. In Europe they don't do this, and they win (or at least their horses do) all the medals.

Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
?????????? what horse in this world is gangly and immature and looks like a world beater at the same time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the worldbeaters at some time in their lives, I think. Most young horses, in fact. Often its the scopy ones who look worst at two and three, and IMO it takes a real judge to see past this and visualise the adult to be.

[ QUOTE ]
The European studbooks base their decisions on this, and they beat us hands down every time.


[/ QUOTE ]

That they continue to assess horses and demote or upgrade some suggests that they, too, recognize that it is only an indication. Again, you choose to disregard the inequality of numbers / opportunities; size for size, I'm not at all sure they DO "beat us every time"...

[ QUOTE ]
The "horses are individuals" comment is the same as "all children are equal" and rewarding a child for coming last. In Europe they don't do this, and they win (or at least their horses do) all the medals.


[/ QUOTE ]

Er- no. Its just the opposite. "All horses are equal" would equate to "all children are equal". In fact all horses- and all children- ARE individuals; if horses were NOT individuals, grading or selection at all would be meaningless; there would be nothing to select from....

The other implication in this is a certain brutality of training, whether of children or of horses- a sense of "win at top level or you're useless"; blatantly untrue and deeply unpleasant.

As for the "jolly good sports horse producers"- is this the old HIS stallions? I believe in their day, their offspring won medals across all disciplines, as has already been noted. Even boxffrogs allows that they produced eventers; surely boxffrogs, of all people, isn't saying that an eventing sire is somehow second rate?

[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. At least we can agree on that!

 

[no_no_nanette]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, the stallions graded made jolly good sport horse producers to suit the majority of our riders

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
That won how many medals outside of eventing?

[/ QUOTE ]

boxffrogs, the obsession with medals is deeply unhelpful - as we all know, the top of a pyramid allows space for only a very, very small number of the best - and becoming totally hung up on breeding Olympic horses can distort the type, temperament and quality of horse being bred further down the pyramid. One of the objectives of any system has to be not only to aim to breed the international winners, but also to factor in all the elements that produce an upgrade in the quality at the broad base of the pyramid - the excellent riding horses - as Ciss says in her post. Sometimes we are in danger of losing sight of that if we focus solely on breeding for the top competition market.

[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ciss always does this! (But I'm intrigued to know if this the same poster who was ripping into the NED and BEF a few months ago? The tone and approach seems to have changed significantly!)

Your "it needed it" comment is very dismissive of the other interesting, and well-argued pov's on this thread; I think that alleycat, in particular, has very effectively challenged the case that you have put forward, and helped to raise the debate to a more considered level. There is also a previous thread from sometime back in the past in which Ciss gives a very clear outline of the history of British breeding, why our grading systems differ from those on the continent, and what might/might not work in the UK. Hopefully she'll help us track this down as a valuable contribution to the discussion!

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bred a colt that looked like a worldbeater but was immature and gangly

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
?????????? what horse in this world is gangly and immature and looks like a world beater at the same time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Class will always stand out but it takes a very experienced eye to see it if the animal is in the rough or going through a growing stage. If YOU can't see it, that means one of two things; it either hasn't got it or you're not experienced enough to see it. Take your pick.


[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A leopard never changes his spots but you're trying very hard to get on the right side of someone, I'll give you that and it's fun watching you try.

 

[no_no_nanette]

[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A leopard never changes his spots but you're trying very hard to get on the right side of someone, I'll give you that and it's fun watching you try.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that there must be a number of us who are entertained observers!

Luckily I'm sure that those people who received brickbats in the past will be too canny to accept the change of approach for anything other than it is .....

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou CISS for bringing experience and factual knowledge to the debate, it needed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A leopard never changes his spots but you're trying very hard to get on the right side of someone, I'll give you that and it's fun watching you try.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that there must be a number of us who are entertained observers!

Luckily I'm sure that those people who received brickbats in the past will be too canny to accept the change of approach for anything other than it is .....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm totally confused by this. Whom am I supposed to be trying to get on the right side of and why?

 

[Diggory]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally confused by this. Whom am I supposed to be trying to get on the right side of and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not you that is being talked about, Ciss!

 

[no_no_nanette]

[ QUOTE ]
A leopard never changes his spots but you're trying very hard to get on the right side of someone, I'll give you that and it's fun watching you try.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm totally confused by this. Whom am I supposed to be trying to get on the right side of and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Ciss, not you!

On the contrary, I think it might refer to someone trying to get on YOUR right side ..... And rapid U-turns can be very confusing ....

 

[cruiseline]

I think the confusion has arisen, because of the constant changing of usenames by a certain individual. I remember the thread from last year, and I think U turn is an understatement!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cruiseline]

Infact I have just checked and I still have the PM's regarding that thread about the Futurity and NED.