Futurity musings

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zoon

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I have just read something interesting - Future Illusion is the only stallion to have achieved 1st premium gradings for all of his foals entered into the futurity to date.

Now I am in no way questioning quality of stallion, but am certainly pondering if this is due to being sponsored by Intelligent worming who also sponsor the Futurity

Any thoughts?
 
Intelligent worming came into sponsoring the futurity only last year i believe and following that started sponsoring him as he was one of the leading sires. He on the other hand has had probably about 4 crops now presented to the futurity.
 
Fair enough.

I had a similar conversation with some friends a while ago, but wondering whether larger studs had a greater proportion of higher premiums than say the hobby breeder or single owner - you can hardly give the foals from the big studs low gradings as the studs may not return the next year meaning BEF lose at LOT of money
 
Well I wouldn't call FI stud a BIG stud as they only have a few mares. What they did was invest time and money on their mares for a few years to prove him as he was a young sire and so used him on their own mares (as well as outsiders). I actually think this is quite applaudable as so many say that if the proof is in the pudding then the stallion owners should be wiling to use them on their own mares. The owner has been a big futurity supporter since its start and so has presented FI himself as a foal, his foals and other stock she has bred.

I think by and large there are actually relatively few big studs that present their foals to the futurity as they are busy competing/covering, etc and it has majorly been the smaller breeders that presented to it - at least until the past couple years when the likes of Preci Spark, etc started presenting foals.
 
zoon said:
I have just read something interesting - Future Illusion is the only stallion to have achieved 1st premium gradings for all of his foals entered into the futurity to date.

Now I am in no way questioning quality of stallion, but am certainly pondering if this is due to being sponsored by Intelligent worming who also sponsor the Futurity

Any thoughts?
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mmm are they then extremely particular about the mares that he is put to? (i.e outside mares as they can control the entry of foals from their own mares to the futurity.) And if so is it him or the high standard of mare being used that is actually responsible for this result??!! Not saying it's a bad thing after all this is what we want.... to breed high class/standard horses.
 
Molly01 said:
I don't think all his foals have been awarded a 1st premium.
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correct just checked in 2010 one scored 7.82 and in 2008, 2 of his offspring scored 2nd's in the SJ section (though these 2 did scrape a 1st premium in another section). and he also had one score 7.96 (2nd premium) in 2011.
 
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Molly01 said:
I don't think all his foals have been awarded a 1st premium.
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Hi Molly - you're right. Until this year he'd sired 100% 1st premium or higher Event foals from all his previous 4 crops. This year (his 5th crop) he had one single event foal who scored 7.96 so just missed out on a 1st premium.

So as far as event foals go - everything that's been presented has scored 1st premium or above with the exception of 1 foal this year.
 
JuliaFSH said:
Hi Molly - you're right. Until this year he'd sired 100% 1st premium or higher Event foals from all his previous 4 crops. This year (his 5th crop) he had one single event foal who scored 7.96 so just missed out on a 1st premium.

So as far as event foals go - everything that's been presented has scored 1st premium or above with the exception of 1 foal this year.
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in 2010 Xaraymax Regal Illusion, a yearling scored 7.82 in the event section, and in 2011 he had the foal To Love & Honour score 7.96 also in the event section, sorry to be pedantic! Still good results as both higher 2nd's!
 
Sorry but I don't get this post - the title is Futurity musings and yet instead it seems to from the outset to be an attempt to denigrate a successful young stallion whose progeny results in futurity and show ring speak for themselves. If this is genuinely a futurity post then maybe the futurity can be discussed in general and not just focus on the one stallion?
 
eventrider23 said:
Sorry but I don't get this post - the title is Futurity musings and yet instead it seems to from the outset to be an attempt to denigrate a successful young stallion whose progeny results in futurity and show ring speak for themselves. If this is genuinely a futurity post then maybe the futurity can be discussed in general and not just focus on the one stallion?
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I'm sure the OP isn't trying to denigrate Future Illusion - as you say his results speak for themselves so it would be pretty tough to do so.
 
Nor do i, and i certainly wasn't, I was just highlighting that not all his progeny had achieved quite the success stated in the OP's post, but as his owner has correctly pointed out unfortunately yearlings quite often don't get the scores that foals and 2 year olds achieve, and it is a shame about the 2011 foal score being so close to a 1st premium!

I think his pretty consistent scores speak for themselves, whether that be a good breeding programme or an outstanding stallion improving/stamping his stock well. Surely it is to be commended.

I think the OP was questioning the independence of the futurity results with regard to 'big' studs?
 
I certainly wasn't trying to question FI at all - it was merely reading about his success and that of his offspring that got me thinking whether or not futurity results were entirely accurate, for want of a better word, not spurred on by FI but from the thoughts about sponsorship. I no wanted this post to centre around FI. Not thinking about any particular stallion or progeny of a particular stallion, nor any particular stud.

What I was trying to say in my OP, but not entirely sure how to, as am "musing" as I said, was that it must be difficult for the futurity to grade horses accurately when so much is to do with who you are or who you know in the horse world.

I'm not saying I think results are fixed in any way, but that it may possibly have an effect? however small. I have had this conversation before with some friends and just feel it is in no ones interest to grade entrants from large studs who provide many entrants with a low premium. Not that small time entrants will automatically receive low premiums, infact these may be graded more fairly. But possibly the results from the big time entrants are skewed? Or results from those horses who's sponsors are involved could possibly be skewed? As it would not be in their interests to lose funding/entry fees by grading the horses low and losing future entries

No I know approximately zero about breeding/stallions/studs etc and have been to 1 futurity event this year so am in no way experienced, but reading intelligent wormings newsletter today about the results just stirred this thought???

(and apologise for my inaccuracy - IW state he has had 100% 1st premiums from all his event foal entrants)
 
zoon said:
What I was trying to say in my OP, but not entirely sure how to, as am "musing" as I said, was that it must be difficult for the futurity to grade horses accurately when so much is to do with who you are or who you know in the horse world.
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In the case of the Futurity, the commercial team and the grading panels are completely separate sets of people. There is no cross over. The individuals on the panel are in the main very well respected for their knowledge and professionalism. The would soon lose credibility among their fellow evaluators if they were seen to be favouring certain stud/individuals/bloodlines. The horse world loves a conspiracy theory... but I think in this case whilst someone will always try to imply bias somewhere in the results, I'm sure that in the main the results are pretty fair.

zoon said:
I'm not saying I think results are fixed in any way, but that it may possibly have an effect? however small. I have had this conversation before with some friends and just feel it is in no ones interest to grade entrants from large studs who provide many entrants with a low premium. Not that small time entrants will automatically receive low premiums, infact these may be graded more fairly. But possibly the results from the big time entrants are skewed? Or results from those horses who's sponsors are involved could possibly be skewed? As it would not be in their interests to lose funding/entry fees by grading the horses low and losing future entries
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Please tell us where this feeling has originated from - what data are you using to draw these views? Our stud is aiming to breed top class event horses. We've spent a lot of time seeking out and buying top class mares. I wouldn't keep a mare that didn't produce the goods (and neither would an other 'professional' stud), so perhaps your view might be because some studs are starting with a better mare base than some more 'small time' breeders? I don't fully agree though, as there are some breeders out there that just have 1 or 2 outstanding mares and year after year get top, top scores for them - and rightly so. Also as I said in another of my replies - the Futurity is in the main over subscribed at all it's venues. Losing even big studs would go unnoticed - the Futurity evaluates c.1000 horses across the series, and has wait lists to get in. Losing even 20 horses from a stud (and I dont think even the biggest studs enter that many) would make no impact on them. There's no reason for the Futurity to need to 'look after' any studs - they can't influence the success or otherwise of the Futurity, it's just too big now.

zoon said:
No I know approximately zero about breeding/stallions/studs etc and have been to 1 futurity event this year so am in no way experienced, but reading intelligent wormings newsletter today about the results just stirred this thought???
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All I can suggest is that you look at the data. As I said previously our stud had it's best results BEFORE IW got involved and also the commercial and evaluation teams have no influence on each other. Also - some larger studs might breed 20 foals but only present their best 4 or 5 so are automatically self selecting the very best and will automatically therefore appear to be more successful.
* I would like to point out that for the first 3 crops we bred by FI we took EVERY foal and didn't self select as we wanted to have the whole spectrum of his foals evaluated * For the last 2 yrs due to time constraints resulting from the growth of the stud we've taken much fewer horses.

zoon said:
(and apologise for my inaccuracy - IW state he has had 100% 1st premiums from all his event foal entrants)
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No problem... We are very particular about ensuring only 100% correct information is put into any published materials about Future Sport Horses, so at the time IW published this, it would have been completely correct.
 
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It is clear and right that the Futurity plays a major part in our breeding programme in this country. It is wonderful that the accreditation of First Premium horses and foals is making it easier for prospective buyers to be certain that they are not going to travel half the country to see a very disappointing and over optimistically described animal.
The Futurity also provides a good platform for all stallion owners to bring their own youngstock or that of their clients to be evaluated and bring accreditation to those stallions. I think this is a valuable process for British Breeding, especially the component scores in the stallion rankings. This gathering of data is what will bring us up to the level of our european competition.
Of course, a big stud will only present their better horses as they will know better then to present horses of lesser quality. That is not an issue as that is exactly the same "distortion" if you wish, as applies to the selection of breeding stallions anywhere else based on the appearances in shows, gradings, auctions and competition of their best offspring. There will be some progeny that are not of this standard but the point is rather, "how good are the best?"
We should be celebrating the dramatic rise in the quality of breeding across the board in the UK. We just keep getting better and the most important thing is the quality at the widest point not just the one or two outstanding horses at the top. Keep it up guys and don't let those that focus on the inevitable cross currents, bring down a truly exceptional programme.
My German judge friends think we evaluators are crazy to allow ourselves to be exposed, harangued and pilloried the way that we are as a result of the openness of our opinions and scores but I believe that without exception, we are all passionate about British Breeding and British Breeders.
 
I'm what folks might call a 'hobby breeder'. My fourth foal is due next spring.

I missed the Futurities with my first filly as I couldn't get an entry for her foal year & 2yo year and she had a virus so didn't go as a yearling.
My colt went through the Futurity last year and came out with a High First Premium and but for an eventer entry being switched would have been reserve high score for dressage. He certainly had a higher score than several entries from well-known studs
Sadly lost this years filly a month before the Futurity - gutted as she was outstanding - even better than the colt. I am sure she would have been evaluated in just the same impartial way.

Will be taking the new baby next year (all being well!) for the event section and the colt will be going back as a 2yo this time. He missed this year due to nail in his foot (had the summer from hell, my vets are going to have a nice holiday!) but is now back to normal.
 
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