Gag bits../double reins..?

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Faberstall

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My horse is very strong. I ride him in a Dutch gag in the ring below the snaffle. He is still strong when trotting and cantering, he is fine walking and once he settles trotting he is okay - it's just at the start. (This is out hacking btw)
Anyway, I'm struggling to stop him evading the bit when cantering and initially trotting. (Putting head in air, turning sideways and opening mouth.)
Do you think that double reins would help? More brakes for cantering but can't be more gentle when walking etc. I just feel like I'm always having to be quite firm at the moment.
Or can you suggest a better bit? (Snaffles have been tried yet no good, so please don't suggest that I am an abuser - some horses don't respond to 'lighter' bits if they were not broken in them, got horse aged 9 and breaking history is unknown)
Teeth, back etc all up to date and fine.
TIA
 
A gag is technically designed to raise the head up, which he is doing. It is perfectly possible to recondition a horse back into a simpler bit, but it takes time and patience by going back to basics and walking in places you normally do fun stuff, introduce trot but coming back to walk the moment he gets wound up, and when calm and collected, introduce canter. You might also want to think how you react when he does what he does - I would put money on you bracing against him, which will only serve to reinforce his behaviour of evading.
 
i used to ride my mare in a dutch gag with 2 reins as she would get very jiggy and upset if i only used the bottom rein. i mainly used the snaffle rein and had the other rein on the lowest small ring and kept it loose. i only used the bottom rein in emergencies like galloping towards the road etc....so most of the time she was in the snaffle only, this worked well for me....
 
Do you have an instructor? There are a range of possibilities for what is happening and the right advice for one scenario is absolutely the wrong advice for another!

You can use a gag with double reins - in fact that is what they are designed for. The rein on the snaffle ring really is nothing more than a snaffle - so you horse is used to a "lighter" bit. But any bit is harsh in the wrong hands and a "harsh" bit can be gentle used correctly with light hands. It might be that the gag action isn't the best option for you because the action is to raise the head. But it might be absolutely the right bit yet your cheek pieces have stretched a bit so it isn't sitting quite right. You can use a curb strap - although it isn't my favorite solution to this problem some horses do go well in it. You could use a grakle noseband. Or a martingale. It could be that you horse needs its teeth checked. Or that there is some element of back pain; cold backed horses do this sometimes. Or that she has a bit of stiffness somewhere and just needs to warm up a bit in hand first.

Quite a lot of possibilities and I'm sure I've only scratched the surface. A good instructor should be able to help.
 
Only true gags i.e. Cheltenham raise the head, not a Dutch and ditto using the latter with a curb strap to stop over rotation.
OP how is his general schooling or is this in a school too?
 
He is green for his age (when I bought him) and we have to hire a school which we can hack to. His general manners and canter are gradually improving whilst hacking, except I just feel that I'm having to be firm more often than I want and was thinking that double reins - I could use snaffle when he is going nicely and settled but if I need extra, I could use the curb rein (on bottom ring)
What do you think?
 
I am currently using martingale,
warming up in hand sounds like a good idea!
Curb strap isn't my most preferable solution either, was thinking that double reins would overall, allow me to be softer as contact wouldn't be as constant?
Thanks!
 
This reminds me of my ex-SJer that I had, fabulous thing but so so strong! I found it hard and decided to go to a pelham with two reins as I felt awfully cruel to go with a gag... I found the pelham gentle enough when I didn't need it and subtle enough to say what I wanted to say without any painful jabs and jerks. You must use with proper curb straps and two reins and ensure its not a jointed as that makes no sense, it weakens the aids into nothing so you are still having to reel in to much rein. It should be enough just to clench your fist, never to pull back. I see so much misuse of this bit, but acutally it's gentle and effective.

I echo others about reschooling - I eventually did xc (barefoot) in a single jointed snaffle through dressage.... however, this wasn't before unravelling a knot of saddle issues, feet issues and diet issues. Do delve deeper... the solution might be far simpler than bitting :)
 
The curb strap is actually how it is designed to be used, and makes it kinder as it stops excessive poll pressure. It makes a big difference when doing exciting things with my welshie boy. He schools in a snaffle though and I do think from what you have said that schooling/generating better balance does sound like it would be a big help, so you have an instructor working with you?
If you are interested in possibly working him in hand too (no need for an arena) might I suggest you have a gander at http://straightnesstraining.com/
you don't have to sign up to any of the courses as there is plenty of info available, and you can go watch some of the clinics for a small fee usually (but really educational) - there is an 'event's page on on fb. Essentially it breaks down classical in hand work into a set of building blocks for those of us that know little about it, and is very much about getting them to work softly and attentively as much as anything which makes me think it wouldn't be a bad thing for your chap.
 
I ride my ex polo pony in a Cheltenham gag with two reins, in my opinion it's the best way as I can ride using essentially a snaffle type contact most of the time and only engage the gag when we are doing stuff where she gets a bit over excited. I see people with one twin on the bottom ring of cheltenhams and it's just too much to have that all the time.
 
ester said:
Only true gags i.e. Cheltenham raise the head, not a Dutch and ditto using the latter with a curb strap to stop over rotation.
OP how is his general schooling or is this in a school too?
Click to expand...

A Dutch does raise the head - It is a leverage bit lifting the mouthpiece up when the rein is used. Which is why the Dutch and a running are such an awful combination, the bit lifts and the martingale pulls it down

As soon as you add a curb strap you Increase the poll pressure
 
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It is pulled up if used without a curb but still works differently to a Cheltenham and many find that it has a head down effect because of the poll pressure whereas a Cheltenham is definitely a head up bit. I just didn't want the two getting confused. I don't think you are totally understanding the effect of a curb strap just from its physics.

OP if you'd like to learn this is a great link for all bits.

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#pessoa
 
A bit with a curb chain/strap lowers the head as the curb chain/strap holds the bit down in the mouth snug against the horses lower jaw - the effect is to increase the poll pressure causing the head to come down.

The Dutch - the mouthpiece rises in the mouth making it uncomfortable for the horse unless it raises its head to reduce the pressure.

The Cheltenham raises the head by the action of the mouthpiece - which is the easiest part of the bit to move - working in a more severe way than the Dutch gag.
 
you need to remember the rotation of the bit ring with a Dutch though, unlike that of a normal curb. Adding a strap stops that rotating to its full extent and the top bit rings being pushed far forwards and the rest of the bit ending up horizontal. There are plenty of more traditional people who say it was intended to be used with a back strap and who would only use it as such.
 
Thank you for all the suggestions (and lessons!)
I think I will have a talk with someone at my yard, who is very experienced.
I'll have to hire the school out a bit more (as long as it stays light long enough!!)
Might have a play around with curb strap and double reins to see if any improvement.
 
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