Irishcobs
Well-Known Member
Its called Neue Schule Jumper waterford gag. But came up when I search waterford pelhams on ebay.
Gag or weird pelham?
- Thread starter Irishcobs
- Start date
Its called Neue Schule Jumper waterford gag. But came up when I search waterford pelhams on ebay.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
Surely it cannot be a gag, it has no movement through the sides
It would have a very limited poll action...
Irishcobs
Well-Known Member
Thats what I thought. Every gag I know the mouthpiece is loose so it moves up and down. Well I suppose you can get cheltenhams that are fixed but, this looks like a mutated pelham.
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
See I cant see how pehams with jointed mouthpieces work, aurely they would overwrite the curb effect- and create a nutcracker action?
Irishcobs
Well-Known Member
Never thought of it before but yes you must be right. God they must be horrible for the horse.
Though the waterford is like a liquid straight bar, they don't nutcraker or bend like a jointed, but thats not what you mean is it?
Though the waterford is like a liquid straight bar, they don't nutcraker or bend like a jointed, but thats not what you mean is it?
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
No I was meaning those single joints, waterford has plenty more move in it- I just get so confused with them, I was looking at Eric's the other day and its soo odd, how the hell can it work?
Salcey
Well-Known Member
Tha action on this is meant to be a cross between a gag and the elevator giving a slight lifting effect at the front.
Irishcobs
Well-Known Member
They can't surely. Thinking about it (and playing with a snaffle) the snaffle rein would cause nutcrackering. The curb rein would twist the bit causing nutcrackering, severe pressure on the tongue by the joint and some poll pressure. Can't be nice for the horse.
Salcey
Well-Known Member
Thankfully never tried it , it would be interesting to talk to Heather about it.
Thinking more about it, I think the key is in the lozenge in the middle - I will try and refresh my memory, its not one we stock as norm so would have to look it up
Thinking more about it, I think the key is in the lozenge in the middle - I will try and refresh my memory, its not one we stock as norm so would have to look it up
tanflislibs
Well-Known Member
for a neue schule it looks pretty severe, arnt neue bits ment for young horses or horses that are in training. you would have thought it would drive them crazy having a new thing in their mouth, escecially if it was all lumpy and twisted like that!
xXxNothings better than a big sloberly horse kiss to ruin your show jacket!!xXx
xXxNothings better than a big sloberly horse kiss to ruin your show jacket!!xXx
KatB
Well-Known Member
Neue schule are just a different manufacterer of bits, they do different types. A waterford, as shown above, is not actually that severe. The bit shown works with a small amout of lifting action, and stops the horse taking hold. LEss poll pressure than a similar type with loose rings.
tanflislibs
Well-Known Member
so a dutch gag on the last hole matched with a waterford middle would defeat the object of poll pressure. a girl at my yard had a waterford and then found she had a problem steering so she added a gag. her real problem was that she didnt uses her legs and just hauled her horse around by the mouth.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Not at all, a dutch gag will have poll pressure because it is loose ringed. The bit pic above is fixed, so will have less "downwards" action that creates the poll pressure.
Unfortunately very common re the girl at your yard!
Unfortunately very common re the girl at your yard!
JessPickle
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Not at all, a dutch gag will have poll pressure because it is loose ringed. The bit pic above is fixed, so will have less "downwards" action that creates the poll pressure.
Unfortunately very common re the girl at your yard!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a waterford dutch gag, but I only use it hacking, mainly because when pickle decides he fancies a gallop in a normal loose ring waterford I dont have a chance!!!!! while in the waterford dutch gag he is holdable YAY
Not at all, a dutch gag will have poll pressure because it is loose ringed. The bit pic above is fixed, so will have less "downwards" action that creates the poll pressure.
Unfortunately very common re the girl at your yard!
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a waterford dutch gag, but I only use it hacking, mainly because when pickle decides he fancies a gallop in a normal loose ring waterford I dont have a chance!!!!! while in the waterford dutch gag he is holdable YAY
Weezy
Well-Known Member
If you rode with a rein on the bottom of that bit it would DEFFO create poll pressure, there is absolutely NO question about that! Fixed sides with a shank will always create poll pressure - I rather like the look of that actually!
Patches
Well-Known Member
Looks a little bit like the wonder bits I've seen.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
It isn't a gag although I can see how you might argue it would work like one without a curb chain/backstrap.
The effect on the poll is large because the mouthpiece rings and cheekpiece rings are well separated.
The effect on the poll is large because the mouthpiece rings and cheekpiece rings are well separated.
Sal_E
Well-Known Member
It's basically a version of the continental snaffle/dutch gag/bubble bit.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
it's a gag in the same sense as the the dutch gag, which have totally different actions to "real" gags like the cheltenham gag.
Personally I dislike waterford mouth pieces but I have seen these snaffle versions on whizzy xc ponies and they seem to work very nicely.
I personally think these non gag , gag's are milder than the real thing. (waits to be shot
)
Personally I dislike waterford mouth pieces but I have seen these snaffle versions on whizzy xc ponies and they seem to work very nicely.
I personally think these non gag , gag's are milder than the real thing. (waits to be shot
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Quote: it's a gag
Why? I don't understand - what do you think a bit neds to have or do to be a gag and why is this bit is a gag?
Quote: It's basically a version of the continental snaffle/dutch gag/bubble bit.
How different does something have to be before it's no longer a version of something else? This bit is closer to a pelham than a continental snaffle isn't it?
Why? I don't understand - what do you think a bit neds to have or do to be a gag and why is this bit is a gag?
Quote: It's basically a version of the continental snaffle/dutch gag/bubble bit.
How different does something have to be before it's no longer a version of something else? This bit is closer to a pelham than a continental snaffle isn't it?
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Quote: Not at all, a dutch gag will have poll pressure because it is loose ringed. The bit pic above is fixed, so will have less "downwards" action that creates the poll pressure.
Incorrect. the loose rings aren't the reason for poll pressure, poll pressure comes from having the cheek pieces and the reins attaching above and below the mouthpiece (respectively) on a shank, ie a 'first order' or 'type one' lever.
Incorrect. the loose rings aren't the reason for poll pressure, poll pressure comes from having the cheek pieces and the reins attaching above and below the mouthpiece (respectively) on a shank, ie a 'first order' or 'type one' lever.
puddicat
Well-Known Member
Quote: See I cant see how pehams with jointed mouthpieces work, aurely they would overwrite the curb effect- and create a nutcracker action?
the snaffle rein would give the nutcraker action the curb rein would predominantly have a curb action. If it was used with roundings then god only knows what the total effect would be.
the snaffle rein would give the nutcraker action the curb rein would predominantly have a curb action. If it was used with roundings then god only knows what the total effect would be.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Oh not disputing the poll action on there, its just with a loose ring, there will be more poll action than lifting action than seen on the pictured bit, as the fixed cheeks with create a lever and have more action on the mouth that a dutch gag which slides on the mouthpiece and puts more poll action to moutyh pressure ratio!? Maybe completely on the wrong track, but just what ive gathered from playing with the different actions!!
RobinHood
Well-Known Member
Referring to the above replies about jointed pelhams, I have always been told that a jointed pelham is midler than one with a straight mouthpiece because the curb chain doesn't have as much of an effect. Maybe someone who has ridden the same horse in both types can enlighten us?