'Gas' as an anaesthetic for dogs?

What would you like to know?
Gaseous anaesthesia is routinely used in veterinary practices. Such as isoflurane, sevoflurane, nitrous oxide etc
 
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Not exactly sure what you mean by that one! Anaesthesia these days in veterinary practices is quite safe. Having been involved with daily anaesthetics for 4 years now I haven't seen an animal react badly to gaseous anaesthesia, but anaesthesia is always a risk. Depending on what sort of reaction you mean....could the reaction be due to an injectable medication? (pain relief, antibiotics), or the animal have an underlying condition?

ETA just seen twiggy2 post, agree that biology doesn't always follow the rules.
 
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This is years ago now but we had a dog wake from anaesthesia when due to be castrated (the sound of a hoover made him get up, having been completely "under" before, which the vet had previously only seen once in a pig up until then) and it had to be done later as they were reluctant to crank it up.
 
Gas anaesthetics are the most commonly used and modern anaesthetics in dogs.there are several different types isoflurane sevo,halothane and nitrous oxide(some are used in combos). They are also rarely given as the only agent for an anaesthetic.most dogs going under anaesthetic will get a premedication that will mildly sedate them, be induced via iv induction agents-alfaxalone/propofol to induce brief loss of conciousness and allow an et tube to be passed before being maintained under anaesthetic using one of the gases. This multimodel anaesthetic usually means less anaesthetic gas is required and that recoveries are smoother. It is possible to gas an animal down eg an elderly very very sick animal who could not tolerate a premedication etc but this is very uncommom.

While animals (just like people) can occaionally have bad reactions and react abnormally it is rare.they can occasionally wake up quickly and violently from an anaesthetic in recovery ie after the gas has being dropped to below therapeutic levels but again it is unusual and in many cases a violent/paniced reation can be a fear reaction to waking up in a strange place as much as the drugs themselves. Some dogs will take several minutes to wake up others will be responsive almost instantly once the gas is turned off...it depends on how quickly they metabolise the anaesthetic drugs.using a multimodel aproach is designed to decrease the chances of these sudden reactions happening. thankfully most canine anaesthetic recoverys are much more pleasent then horses!and having used both I've found the the recoveries from gas anaesthetics are much smoother then from the older injectable anaesthetic styles.

Occasionally you will meet a dog who reacts abnormally to an anaesthetic(ie will need an unusually small or large volume to keep them unconcious and unresponsive and they keep the anaesthetist(usually a vet nurse) on their toes!)but I have yet to meet one who is able resist to the effects of the drugs and feel pain(we monitor hr and rr during ops so would be able to see a reaction if it was occuring),but again like people im sure they do exist.
 
Thanks for that Aru, it was most informative and helpful. The dog concerned is a young but adult lurcher. He has an ear infection which the vet initially gave me a bottle of drops which are anti fungal (Canaural), but in looking in the other ear she found some deep set (corn) seeds, of some sort she thought. We took him back yesterday to see how the treatment for the infected ear was and though he no longer carries his ear drooped, there is still considerable inflammation. It was decided that the best thing was to anaesthetise him and have a proper inspection. I asked if they had injectable drugs which greyhounds can cope with. They hadn't so it was decided that gas would be the simplest answer and I was assured that he would recover without the often lengthy and stressful reaction which can be common with such dogs. I pointed out that the dog had the kindest disposition and that I didn't want a fear of vets installed and neither did I want a fight. So far so good.

I asked if I could attend to deal with the dog should there be a need. I was told that I couldn't unless I was a qualified veterinary nurse, which obviously I'm not. I pointed out that there was no more risk to me than a nurse, but to no avail. I also pointed out that I'm known to the practice and that I attend a great many GA applications for horses and cattle with a large animal practice who they know, and that I'd always before been welcome to attend. Grudgingly, I accepted the decision and leaving my OH in the waiting room, I went outside and rolled a fag and smoked it which would have taken 5 or 6 minutes. I returned to bedlam with the dog screaming in a way that I never want to hear again. My OH said that it had been going on for some time. I asked the receptionist what on earth was going on and was told that the dog had had a reaction to the drug and was now coming round. The deafening row continued as was his audible and physical struggling as it sounded as if they were struggling to contain him. I told the girl that what ever was happening was to stop immediately and that if she didn't put a stop to it, I would. Out came the senior vet and she said the same thing in that the dog was having a 'difficult' recovery, but would I like to come through. I went in and he stopped immediately, though that may well have been coincidental.

I then asked the vet who'd attended to the dog how the op had gone and was told that they hadn't managed to do anything as they couldn't control the dog. There's no clip mark on his leg from any I/V jab, so presumably they decided to dispense with an initial sedative. I'll admit that I'm making assumptions in that. To suggest that the dog was 'coming round' seems odd, when they hadn't even looked in his ears, so it would be highly unlikely that he'd been sedated.

I'll also admit that it was hearing the dog in such a distressed and clearly panicking state and that the one person there who could have simply calmed him wasn't permitted to attend, which angered me. I did wonder if it may have been an idea to point out that when a dog screams continually, that as much as anything, it's the sound of its own voice which upsets it further, and the simple act of holding the mouth closed, gently, often has a remarkable and calming influence, but then wondered what was the point.

What now? There will not be a repeat performance, that's for certain. I know of a vet who's 20 miles away, a man who I've shot with and who's a passable dog trainer! Tomorrow I think that a change of vet is on the cards.

I apologise for taking so long to reply to your thoughtful post, but the morning started with a protracted and difficult lambing, stables, dogs and then a funeral this afternoon, with the DG having her monthly infusion at the N&N at 11:00, and it's been a bit of a day!

Perhaps tomorrow I won't be quite so peed off! :)

Alec.
 
How awful. I admit my lurcher is never having another anaesthetic, she had one a few years ago to have teeth out and was really ill and depressed for nearly 6 months afterwards, in spite of it being the expensive 'best for dogs with no body fat' option. She could do with a dental now but it is not happening, at 15+ she can have smelly breath!
They are vocal though, and certainly if I try to hold mine still she will scream incessantly. I wonder if they couldn't even clip him as by holding him still he panicked and fought? Were you billed for anaesthesia?
 
I suggest that having a panicking owner on site didn't help matters nor one who wanted to dictate anaesthetic protocol - although any vet worth their salt should be able to make their own plan. But if you have a concern you should ask for a written account of the procedure that took place and what the problem was .
 
SusieT said:
I suggest that having a panicking owner on site didn't help matters nor one who wanted to dictate anaesthetic protocol - although any vet worth their salt should be able to make their own plan. But if you have a concern you should ask for a written account of the procedure that took place and what the problem was .
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I dont know Alec but I would be very surprised if he was a panicky owner.

last year both my Dobes under went a trial that Langford was offering free to help with heart research, it did require sedation and when I went to pick them up they hadnt done Darcy because she wouldnt allow them to clip her stomach. I offered to clip her myself and bring her in another day if they wanted and they said yes that was fine and I could stay with her. They didnt sedate her because she lay on the table on my command and she was very calm, if they had tried to force her down she would have fought them, they said I had a very calming influence on her as it was vital for all her heart readings.

Im not sure if the above is normal practice but as my vets they are fully aware I dont panic but I would be alarmed if one of my dogs had acted the same as Alecs and would be very concerned if they wouldnt let me try to calm her/him as it would be in the dogs bests interests.
 
So sorry to hear of this experience - for the OP, but especially the dog. Have had something similar myself recently - not nice. I hope that tomorrow is a better day for you both and that you find a solution to the dog's problem.
 
I would suspect he has had a reaction to whatever drugs he recieved or to the injection being giving itself. possibly the premedication given the timeframe?

We do see a handful of dogs who will howl the house down over a sc injection and greyhound/lurcher types are overrepresented ...to the point I do warn owners to expect a dramatic reaction when giving vaccines etc to these dogs..... but a protracted reaction(more than a couple of minutes) is very unusual.

Has he ever had a stranger give him an injection before? Just wondering as sometimes its the action of a stranger jabbing them sets of the inital reaction then they they work themselves up into a tizzy as they are being confined in a strange place,(most are immediately returned to kennel post injection to calm down and let the sedatives in the premed do their work).flinging themselves around attempting to scratch at the injection sight while in a metal cage sounds terrible as well though!

Injectible induction agents would have been given iv..so a clip or injection site would be visable..and most dogs knocked out within a couple if seconds so before they get a chance to react which is why I would suspect the premed in this case.

Id go back and ask exactly what he got as understandably this is not something you want to have repeated.poor pup!

Im not surprised they didnt hold his mouth shut though. In a strange dog having a reaction that is a significant bite risk in a vet practice. owners doing this would be tend to be tolerated much better then the strangers who have just caused them pain( injected them)and I wouldnt blame any dog for being snappy in that incidence...and would have harsh words with any of our nurses who tried it on a panicing animal... Reassurance and gentle restraint if already being held is fine..touching of the flank fine and upper head carefully..questionable but a judgement call depending on the dog...touching near the muzzle a strangers dog whos just been given drugs known to remove bite inhibition(anaesthetics and sedations can do this)...bad judgement call.

We also cannot have owners in the treatment area when the anaesthetic gas is being used.
Our health and safety statement says the only people allowed to work with the anaesthetics must be qualified to do so..meaning having an owner there while invalidates our insurance...which is crappy esp in cases where euthanasia is being preformed on critically ill animals/small critters...but sadly the rules in play in a small animal vet hospital these days.

Plus bites to owners that happen on a vets premise are often considering the vets fault.(for not being the professional and controlling the situation) so its getting to the stage we cannot even allow owners to hold their own dogs if they are questionable Liability culture gone mad really.
In america no one gets to hold their own dogs in consults anymore because of that ruling being made in a few liability cases. nurses restain all dogs in the consult in the large small animal vet consult...its madness thats its gotton to that point.

Seriously though alex,I would find out what hes recieved and find out exactly what happened...At the end of the day this is not a reaction the vets would have wanted to happen either!esp given you were an already concerned about the experience owner who was still on site...and go from there.

It may be quite easy to manage in future once the exact experience is known.ie full on drug reaction or a complete overeaction to being injected!.
a chemical reaction is actually much easier to deal with then a hates the needle reaction in some ways...we just change the drugs used.
We have a few dogs who get premeds done while the owner is still present (needs to be organised in advance as our ops are in the midday and has to have a good reason to be happening..generally aggression) but it means the owner can help temper the reaction and help reassure when the dog while is has its over reaction to the indignity of having being injected by a horrible stranger before being led into the treatment area half asleep and easier to handle once the premed kicks in.

Unfortunately theres a dramatic culture shift between large animal and small animal medicine when it comes to allowing owner involvement and its very rare that owners get to enter behind the scenes in a small animal setting so If you can find a vet who allows this appreciate them, they are one of the few left holding out against this laibility risk culture!

I hope your pup is still in good form isnt to traumatised by it all! Not an ideal situation when you were already worried for him.
 
Again Aru, thank you for going to the trouble which you have. I'm genuinely grateful.

I've made an appointment with the vet who I mentioned earlier, I almost shrank from asking if I could be present, and his response was that he would 'always' offer the opportunity to attend to those owners who would like to be present, and made the point that with sensible owners who weren't given to 'panic', they could all so often be a calming influence on a dog which may otherwise be difficult.

The appointment is next Monday at 09:20, and should there be anything worthwhile to report, I'll return here! I'm grateful to those who felt able to offer constructive support.

Alec.
 
Very well. He stood quietly whilst the vet peered down in to his ears, both sides, he said that the inflammation had all but cleared up on the one side and that there was nothing in the other ear that he could see. The dog has never really cared too much for having his ears pulled about but there was no resistance at all, and I can only assume that was because he had his owner with him and holding him still. He isn't a difficult dog, on the contrary, but I fail to understand why there needs to be a fight made of a procedure which in reality should be fairly straightforward. By the end of the examination on Monday he was starting to pant a bit and the vet said "Best take him home now, he's starting to stress a bit" which was a welcome observation!

Regarding the first visit; I still haven't quite got my head around the fact that the dog was in such a state and apparently whilst the anaesthetic was being administered. He obviously wasn't 'under' or he'd have been comatosed, so what exactly went so wrong, I haven't a clue. Anaesthesia is a complex subject and one which as a layman, obviously I don't understand. I am though aware that just as with humans, the reactions can vary and sight-hounds may well generally be those which would be more likely to have extremes of response. Should the dog ever need an anaesthetic again, I'm highly tempted to suggest that it's administered by I/V injection, and we'll cope with the recovery time though in reality I'll go with what the attending vet thinks is the best route, at the time. Perhaps previously it was simply a reaction to the gas, perhaps the gas maintenance level wasn't correct and following the first 'blast' he started to come round. What ever happened, they weren't able to carry out the procedure, that's for sure.

I do understand that in a busy vet's surgery there simply isn't time to faff about with patients, many animals loathe the vet anyway, and so approaching any dog which is unknown and with the intention of doing anything invasive already has the poor old vet on the back foot!

I'm grateful to you Aru for your interest and your timely advice. 'All's well that ends well' is where we are at the moment!

Alec.
 
Glad you spent time with a vet you and your dog are happy with Alec, at work gas is very rarely used to 'knock an animal out' because of the fact many are likely to panic they are alomost always knocked out with IV drugs as it is quicker and less stressful than trying to force and animal to inhale gas-obviously with some animals (birds and reptiles) there are so many variables that gas is by far tha safest option but generally they can be put into a box that the gas is piped into so no oe has to restrain them resulting it no panicking.
It is unusual that dogs are better with the owers present though as most owners don't know how to safely restrain a dog and it puts staff at massive risk. I like you usually hold my own and that is at the insisitance of the nurses as my dogs have all apart from one been better with me present, my dogs do spend the vast majority of their day with me and I don't think that is true for many dogs these days.
As I said before though no medicine is an exact science but it is very important to have confidence in the people you entrust your animals care to.
 
Hi Alec..you should come to Italy...my vet,a skin specialist has on two occasions allowed my into the operating room to stay at my dogs side when it has had a cyst removed ..great people.
I found the following link interesting..look at the sight hound section..

http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/Breed-Specific-Anesthesia.pdf
And everything you could wish to know re sight hounds and anaesthesia
http://www.windhonden.nl/anest.htm

http://greyhoundsaspets.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ANAESTHESIA-IN-THE-GREYHOUND.pdf
 
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