Gastric Ulcers Now Gone but horse still won't trot - anyone?

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vanrim

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I have 2 horses who were diagnosed with grade iv pyloric ulcers. They were treated and last week were both re scoped clear. Hurrah I thought I can ride them finally. Anyway I gave them a week and tried to lunge one and loose school the other. The gelding will trot with his ears flat back and he looks incredibly uncomfortable - he also still kicks out when you try to pick his back feet up or run your hand along his flank at the stifle end. I had to give him Sedalin just so the farrier could finish shoeing him at it was getting dangerous. The mare rears and comes at you like she would rather kill you than trot. I had these symptoms before the treatment and getting rid of the ulcers hasn't changed anything. Please no posts on ulcer treatments and behavioural issues - I have done this to death - I am only interested in finding out if anyone else has had problems, had ulcers successfully treated but original problem remained. Oh and any light at the end of the tunnel would be appreciated as it is very black in here right now.
 
Yeah, me, same. Mine goes in cycles...atm he's very reluctant to trot, then he will gradually pick up over a few weeks & just at the point where I'm starting to think it might be worth booking a lesson, he'll come out slow again. I take him in the school every day for a timed 10 mins. He is happy enough walking, then I verbally ask him to trot & see how we go. Sometimes he will nearly make a transition and then decide not to, sometimes he'll do a few strides, sometimes he wants to trot. When we're cycling upwards, I increase his work by 5 mins a week, i.e. up to 15 mins a day then the following week up to 20 mins a day. Gradually increasing the amount of trot & canter. Start jumping, etc. Then one day he'll just come out slower than the day before, & we'll be back to 10 mins in walk.

I am saving up for the insurance excess so I can get KS xrays done. There is a strong link between KS & ulcers.

I would say that mine is ulcer free as the biting, kicking, anxiety, miserable expression etc has stopped. He just won't go though!

T x
 
Sadly no light at end of tunnel here but I have been in the same boat. Successfully treated ulcers but my horse still showed some of her original signs, especially on the ground such as being incredibly sensitive in the girth/belly area. Luckily she has generally been much happier to work, but still has her moments. It makes me wonder if there is something else going on along the digestive tract. Some of the signs I think could have ended up a habit, but others wouldn't make sense as a habit. I feel your pain as it is very frustrating!! I hope you do seem some light soon. It's not nice having unhappy horses is it :(
 
Hiya

Did you taper off the gastrogard slowly (like down to 1/4 syringe for a goid while?). Just a thought that you say you gave them a week before working. Is it possible that they werent weaned off slowly enough? I know some horses whereby a week off treatment was long enough for the ulcers to re-appear?
 
Hind gut?

When mine was being treated for gastric ulcers he became more and more backward and grumpy. A lameness work up didn’t show much and vets couldn't pin point. Conversation with a different vet led to looking at the hind gut, which ended up being the issue. I have heard anecdotally that gastroguard can increase hind gut issues.
 
Yes alsxx I am thinking hind gut too and although the Equisure hasn't worked I believe my horses are too affected for a supplement to make any difference. I am currently trying to get them booked into Leahurst for an ultrasound of the colon and biopsy if necessary. I believe they may need steroid treatment to get them right. I have another thread going on irritable bowel syndrome and someone on there had a horse very like mine.

alsxx said:
Hind gut?

When mine was being treated for gastric ulcers he became more and more backward and grumpy. A lameness work up didn’t show much and vets couldn't pin point. Conversation with a different vet led to looking at the hind gut, which ended up being the issue. I have heard anecdotally that gastroguard can increase hind gut issues.
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My horse was scoped in early December and found to have ulcers. I can't remember the types but they were Grade II & III. The signs she showed were being girthy, snappy with rugs being done up and would turn into a raging bull after cantering on exercise if ridden before breakfast.

She had one month's Gastrogard (full dose) then tapered down to 1/4 tube a day for a further 3 months. Scoped end Dec and clear.

Her symptoms are still the same re: rugs. She is currently on the sick list so hasn't been ridden since mid Dec. However the EP came out to see her and said she thinks very strongly that the horse has hind gut issues which are actually causing the symptoms. I think the hind gut issues are more common than people think and we just assume its the ulcers causing the symptoms.
 
Two horses developing kissing spines at the same time would be extremely unlikely or unlucky! Did you do a succeed test to see if you got a positive Albumin result which would point at hind gut issues? Do they trot when turned out in the field? Did muscle enzymes test normal in blood tests? Just some suggestions.
 
How about trying mycasorb from progressive earth? My mare is transformed since a 90 day course of succeed and mycasorb as I'm convinced that the clover in her field causes her problems!
 
Yes they haven't got kissing spines. My vet won't do the succeed test as they don't think it is reliable enough. The blood tests all came back normal.

Silverfire said:
Two horses developing kissing spines at the same time would be extremely unlikely or unlucky! Did you do a succeed test to see if you got a positive Albumin result which would point at hind gut issues? Do they trot when turned out in the field? Did muscle enzymes test normal in blood tests? Just some suggestions.
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Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy. It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based. they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg. Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread! Just a thought. I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once. If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!
 
Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him.
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.
 
Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him.
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.
 
I have got them both booked in with a chiropractor in a couple of weeks.

charlie76 said:
Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him.
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.
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The allergy aspect is interesting.


old hand said:
Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy. It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based. they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg. Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread! Just a thought. I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once. If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!
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Thanks for the post old hand. All this information is mind boggling but worth considering. My horses are now out 24/7 and only eating alfalfa chaff and hay. I am even changing my hay supply to see if that makes a difference. The chaff they are on is different to the one I was feeding previously.


old hand said:
Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy. It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based. they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg. Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread! Just a thought. I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once. If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!
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vanrim said:
Ali27 - did you use original Suceed or the improved formula one only available through a vet?
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I got my succeed through the vet. It cost me around £88 per month. Luckily my insurance covered it for 90 days. I am prepared to fund it myself next year if it means a happier horse :-) I also feed 10ml of hemp oil am and pm and half a scoop of happy tummy in each feed. She also gets half scoop of happy tummy before she is ridden.
 
I am very interested in this thread as I have a beautiful Irish sport horse that I imported direct as a 4 year old last October but she has refused to trot since her arrival - I have never come across this before and have tried all sorts of remedies! She had a lump on her neck (where a neck strap would sit) and I thought this was the problem - had it scanned and it was just a soft tissue injury that vet said should cause no issues. Had back x-rayed = all clear. Have had Physio/chiro/equine massage with nothing found but minor bits and pieces that shouldn't really be causing anything significant. I did give her 10 days of gastrogaurd that i had left over from another horse but I didn't really think that was the problem so I wasn't really bothered that it wasn't a full course of treatment. Now I'm not so sure! My horse is also ridiculously itchy - I clipped her and treated her for live just in case, wormed her with ivermectin, bathed her with Malaseb and have taken her off all hard feed to no avail. She has me stumped!! She isn't insured as she has had this issue since she stepped off the lorry so I couldn't insure her as a healthy horse.. Help!
 
You won't know unless you get her scoped unfortunately. My horses were like this before they were diagnosed with ulcers but they have been treated successfully and are now clear but they are no better. They are going back for an ultrasound of the hind gut and a biopsy.


Lulup said:
I am very interested in this thread as I have a beautiful Irish sport horse that I imported direct as a 4 year old last October but she has refused to trot since her arrival - I have never come across this before and have tried all sorts of remedies! She had a lump on her neck (where a neck strap would sit) and I thought this was the problem - had it scanned and it was just a soft tissue injury that vet said should cause no issues. Had back x-rayed = all clear. Have had Physio/chiro/equine massage with nothing found but minor bits and pieces that shouldn't really be causing anything significant. I did give her 10 days of gastrogaurd that i had left over from another horse but I didn't really think that was the problem so I wasn't really bothered that it wasn't a full course of treatment. Now I'm not so sure! My horse is also ridiculously itchy - I clipped her and treated her for live just in case, wormed her with ivermectin, bathed her with Malaseb and have taken her off all hard feed to no avail. She has me stumped!! She isn't insured as she has had this issue since she stepped off the lorry so I couldn't insure her as a healthy horse.. Help!
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Lulup said:
Was it a sudden thing that they wouldn't trot or a gradual onset?
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The mare started napping one day out of the blue when asked to go into trot in the manage. This carried on every day for 6 months but I could always get her going. After 6 months it got worse and also I started to realise there must be something wrong. By the time the vet came out she would not trot ridden t all and if you try and get her to trot just loose in the manage she will rear and come at you but she will not trot for all the tea in China. The gelding was always impossible to get right canter but as he is only 3 I put it down to that. He was always sensitive and you could only brush him with a very soft brush or he would bite. I just put this down to quirkiness. Then in the space of a fortnight he started being reluctant to trot to refused to budge off the spot with a rider on. This happened at the same time the mare became unrideable and I finally realised there was clearly something wrong with them both and had been for the last 18 months.
 
How unlucky are you having 2 horses with ulcers, I do feel for you.
Are you sure that it's still the ulcers troubling your horse? My WB was diagnosed with ulcers following extreme aggressive behaviour and we treated those actually realising that the ulcers were symptomatic of more serious issues. Did you get to the bottom of why your horse had ulcers? You say the behaviour became worse and worse, could there be another underlying problem with say the back or something not that obvious? My WB was xrayed for KS at the same visit he was scoped for ulcers as I believe they are a common pain symptom. Could you maybe try thermal imaging to detect a hotspot? I used a holistic vet in the end who finds the root cause of any problem.
Also as you probably know pyloric ulcers are reknowned for being hard to treat. My horse had 1 in the pyloric region and he was treated with sucralfate as well as GG.
After treatment with GG my holistic vet advised me to follow a 6 week herbal regime to restore hind gut health that is destroyed by the undigested food passing through the gut (the action of GG shutting down the acid pumps to a large degree). If you search for green clay and chlorella you will find my previous posts regarding this. This helped my horse following treatment.
I am more than happy for you to pm me if I can be of any help.
 
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