Genuine fear or just being a brat?

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Tayto

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So, the nicer weather and light nights are here and I have been cracking on with getting my mare back out hacking after not getting much through winter due to lack of light and weather. We had a scare last year and since then she has turned into a nappy hacker which is doing my head in!

When leaving the yard she does the whole fire breathing thing which makes me wonder if it's genuine fear? If I get angry at her and give her a tap with a schooling whip it makes her worse and she starts going backwards or tries to run off. She tenses her body and my leg aids mean nothing and she locks her neck against me and wriggles about.

I have had her out in company (always behind) and with my partner on foot when we do this she is the most chilled out horse out there and nothing phases her. If I ask her to take lead file she goes back to tensing up, being really backwards and not moving forward off my leg.

I have tried the softly softly approach, sitting, asking quietly and have also resorted to pony club kicks and shouting. I have been firm with her but nothing seems to get through to her and I am getting extremely peed off with her!

I school her regularly with an instructor and she is well schooled and I am clear with my aids but I am at the end of my patience nearly!

I know posts like this are so common and I have posted in the past but does anyone have similar experiences and if so how did you overcome it?

I have to hack up and down a very steep hill and I am terrified she takes off with me down the hill one day! She feels like a ticking time bomb under me as and one day if I push her too far she will explode!
 
To me, it sounds like bratty behaviour, especially if she is otherwise well behaved in company, with another horse or in the school.

From my experience a worried horse will usually take comfort in it's rider applying the aids and calmly giving the horse confidence to move forward. I would say she is probably threatening or testing you, particularly as you describe her as a ticking time bomb. It is neither fun nor easy to deal with these situations, because sometimes it really is a challenge to see the difference in nerves and attitude. Check her body language- simple signs like tail swishing (temper), or facial expressions (whites of eyes and creases above eye would signify nerves).

Could your instructor not keep a distance and try to view the behaviour briefly to get a better idea of what is going on and how to tackle it?
 
I dont think its brattish hehaviour, she does sounds wary and scared hacking on her own probably after the incident that has scared you both. You say you are being firm and fair with your aids, but you say youre terrified she'll take off with you down the hill, youre go ing out expecting this behaviour, she feels that wariness in you and will happily respond to what youre sending down the reins, so she may not be getting the confidence from you that she gets with the other horses and riders, and im assusming that when someone is on foot with you, youre more relaxed, so she is as wellI'd keep jacking out in company until you both get your confidence back up
 
She doesn't trust you. You're angry, tapping with your whip, using pony club kicks and shouting.

I had one ride early in my relationship with my mare where she completely shut down on a solo hack and planted. I went back to groundwork and a lot of it. We went for walks, hedge foraging, long lining, playing in the school and lots of grooming. It helped enormously and she hasn't shown fear since. Sure, she'll stop and stare at something scary but a neck scratch and gentle encouragement gets her going again.
 
Tayto said:
When leaving the yard she does the whole fire breathing thing which makes me wonder if it's genuine fear? If I get angry at her and give her a tap with a schooling whip it makes her worse and she starts going backwards or tries to run off. She tenses her body and my leg aids mean nothing and she locks her neck against me and wriggles about.

I have had her out in company (always behind) and with my partner on foot when we do this she is the most chilled out horse out there and nothing phases her. If I ask her to take lead file she goes back to tensing up, being really backwards and not moving forward off my leg.
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For me reading this I think she is fearful and lacking confidence being on her own or without the security of horses to follow or a human on the ground with her.
Do you lead her out? Perhaps start with that and progress to longlinig at home then with someone at her head and then small LL walks with no one at her head. Start small and break things down with lots of praise/rewards when she remains calm. Lots of repetition taking the same route and extending it slowly to new routes. Trying to end/come back before she panics.
Get someone to go with you and ask them first to ride abreast for a few rides then to drop back slightly and briefly, building up to letting her take the lead briefly then build up the time with lots of rewards when she stays calm.

I haven't had this problem so just some ideas which may be useless! lol
 
I don't always pony club kick at her, it's just one of the things I have tried when all else was failing. Normally I would be quiet and talk to her in a soft reassuring voice and she doesn't seem to respond well to a raised angry tone. I have led her out in hand and she was a total dope on a rope! I lunge her and spend loads of time grooming her, finding her itchy bits etc and on the ground we have no issues so I feel like we have a pretty good relationship. Since the incident we have had some great hacks in company but every time I attempt it alone she turns into a different horse :( maybe I just need to give her more time with company... Having company is not always possible though and I am finding that if it's a lovely evening but no one is around I end up schooling rather than having a fight with her. Before the scare we had she hacked out perfectly alone - I had no idea that one incident could cause such lasting damage :( I have actually booked us into a confidence workshop so fingers crossed it will help!
 
What happens if you school her while hacking? If I let mine ogle everything on a hack, he would spook and shy at a leaf blowing in the wind, the grass being a bit longer than last week, anything and everything. So he works properly when he is schooling so I have his concentration. He works in an outline, we leg yield, shoulder in, lots of transitions (within the walk and trot, and between paces too). When he is schooling, he has less time and chance to find things to spook at.

If she is nervous then this might just take her mind off it, and make sure she is concentrating on you.

Also, are you nervous as she will be picking up on that too?
 
Can you go out with a person on foot or another horse.
Get the person to gradually drop back and if she's unsure, don't make a fuss, just put the person back in front. Eventually, she'll take the lead more and build hers (and your) confidence up.

My horse went out with another a few years back and he wouldn't take the lead. We rode 2 abreast and I slowly brought my mare to the rear. When something scared him, I pushed my horse on to take the lead and when he grew confident, I dropped her slowly back again. By the end of the summer, he was out hacking by himself confidently on hacks he'd had to previously be led around.
 
Tayto said:
Since the incident we have had some great hacks in company but every time I attempt it alone she turns into a different horse :( maybe I just need to give her more time with company... Having company is not always possible though and I am finding that if it's a lovely evening but no one is around I end up schooling rather than having a fight with her. Before the scare we had she hacked out perfectly alone - I had no idea that one incident could cause such lasting damage :( I have actually booked us into a confidence workshop so fingers crossed it will help!
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Great idea good luck. I think not exposing her (and you) to more stress (by doing other stuff when there's no one to hack with ) is very sensible. You could go for little walks and perhaps learn how to long line in the school to start with when no fellow hackers available, something different to always schooling.
Ime horses are very sensitive and a big scare will have affected both of you.
 
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Hi - i would say 100% lack of confidence/scared and not bratty at all. I have a very similar mare and her instinct is always to run backwards and reverse, I used not to be able to get off the yard!

Its very easy for people to say she is being naughty, or you need to ride her with more confidence etc, that she doesnt trust you, that you need to be more assertive etc but in all honesty i sometimes think mares who are like this can't be forced into doing anything.

The way I got my mare hacking was to go out with friends but sometimes take the lead on the way home for a bit, and then gradually make that longer. I also went out with someone on foot a couple of times but actually she was still really nappy even if they tried to drag her along! Arguing with her didnt help at all and whip was a no go.

I tried to start EVERY hack and finish EVERY hack the same and find a short loop (20 mins) that i could do this with.

Then one quiet sunday afternoon i bit the bullet, left the yard at a spanking trot (poor legs) and trotted the first half until we were on the 'homeward' loop and then eased to walk - she didnt have a chance to think about anything and i kept chatting to her and singing and generally being as noisy and 'we are FINE!' about it as possible!

Next time, another very quiet moment (in case of problems!) and did the same but slightly less trotting... we have gradually got to an hour hack on our own and yes we still reverse sometimes but i only can now walk off the yard quite happily. We got stuck the other day because there was a terrifying horse with a fly mask looking at us that had never been at that particular gate before AND it was on the way home and we spun and leapt and propped and reversed but we HAD to get past it eventually as it was getting dark :)

Top tips from me - do it at a quiet time so the roads are quiet - its one less thing to worry about if you do get stuck somewhere - i am a new fan of 730pm hacks.

- if you both get to a point where you are in meltdown/anxious/stressy (just horse or you and horse!!) i found letting her graze a bit of cow parsley deflected her attention enough to let our pulse rates drop enough before we tackled whatever the issue was again.

- set yourself small goals - find the shortest route possible to start and always start and end the same

- ditch the whip - just ends up in a row ... instead i use the whip whop action with the reins - this tends to shock her into doing something!

This forum is a really good resource but so often the immediate reaction is either a) they are being naughty or b) they are in pain, get xyz checked etc. I genuinely believe sometimes it is JUST fear/lack of confidence and ok we snort and reverse round the block a fair amount but my mare is testament to the fact that slowly you can progress!

Good luck!
 
9tails said:
She doesn't trust you. You're angry, tapping with your whip, using pony club kicks and shouting.

I had one ride early in my relationship with my mare where she completely shut down on a solo hack and planted. I went back to groundwork and a lot of it. We went for walks, hedge foraging, long lining, playing in the school and lots of grooming. It helped enormously and she hasn't shown fear since. Sure, she'll stop and stare at something scary but a neck scratch and gentle encouragement gets her going again.
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agree
lots of groundwork and trust rebuilding
 
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