genuine question about barefoot/absess situation...

Ellemoo

Ellemoo

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Hi, posted yesterday about my girl who is on box rest with possible laminitus or absess. Ive not had any first hand experience of either so just wanted to ask a couple of questions please :)

If there is an absess, how long will it be until i see signs of it? (she has been pooulticed as of 5pm yesterday)

Is it just a coincidence that she has had her front shoes off for a week and a half, and this has happened? Did having shoes on 'mask' a problem that was brewing and now shes barefoot it has come to a head?

Also, vet recommended i feed her a handful of 'happy hoof' to give her danilon and acp- as this is the 'best' feed for her if she does have laminitus aparantly- is this right?

Any thoughts on the above questions? As i said ive not had any problems like this before so i feel a bit lost tbh :(

Thanks in advance :)
 
I'd get the farrier out to see if he/she can find the abscess and make an escape for the pus. Happy hoof is actually not the best as higher in starch than the manufacturers would have us all believe. An unmolassed chaff is better as a base to feed danilon in.
 
As far as possible laminits goes the best thing is to keep them on a deep supportive bed and feed low sugar/starch feeds such as 12hr soaked hay.

I'm not keen on Happy Hoof for laminitics and prefer to use fast fibre, whcih is easier to mix supplements in anyway. :)

If the attack is only mild I keep a check on digital pulses and once the pony is sound off painkillers with no raised pulses for about three days I usually allow them out on no grazing. Your vet will advise on this though.

Abscesses can grrumble on for weeks or blow in a day or two, but poulticing and /or tubbing should help it to blow.

The shoes could have been masking a problem, or it might have happened anyway. The grass has been pretty erratic with growth spurts and our odd weather this year, I think there are probably a few more laminitis/abscess cases because of it! I hope she's soon sound and happy.:)
 
Hi,
Shoes may have been masking a problem, but it is more likely due to the length of time in between that she had thin soles and has got some bruising or a wound in het foot which has led to an abcess.

What has ur farrier said about feet and how to improve them?

It can take 24hrs - a week for an abcess to burst or b reabsorbed. They r very frustrating!

Happy hoof should b ok, but if it is lami, I would b giving her a couple of high fibre feeds a day as this will help balance the ph on her gut (imaging how ur tummy would feel if u didn't eat much all day), and will manage her lami better. I'd go for hi fi lite (or the molasses free one), with sum vits and mins or a lo cal balancer,, and sum quickbeat (u can feed loads of this). Mayb sum magnesium too. U r looking for feeds with under 10% starch in and as little sugar as poss. And soaked hay. My vets have openly said to me they don't know anything about commercial food. Lucky for me I know an equine nutritionist and have studied it as part of my degree and other training!

It is likely if just one foot is sore to b an abcess and if both feet r sore to b lami, but could b either.

I would recomend sum boots and pads if it turns out to b lami as this will make her more comfortable, u may need to cut a semi circle shape out the front of the pad if lami is bad to ease the pressure on the pedal bone.

Best of luck. X
 
Thank you, ive not heard of fast fibre- will see if i can get my hands on that today!

She is on a thick bed of shavings right up to the door, treating her as if she ha laminitus as a precaution. Vet is coming back out on Tuesday to re assess the situation. She was reactive to the hoof testers on both front feet but there was an area to the side between her frog and the hoof wall on one foot that seemed more tender than the rest which was what made the vet think it was possibly an absess?

How much fast fibre can she have? The vet said to give her the tiniest handful of happy hoof twice daily just to give her the meds in but obv i think pony would be happier if she could have a slightly larger amount as she is acting like her throats been cut! :o
She is having 12 hour soaked hay aswell :)
 
Ellemoo said:
If there is an absess, how long will it be until i see signs of it? (she has been pooulticed as of 5pm yesterday)
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Depends on where it is and why it is. Abscesses are often more an inconvenience and a fright than anything else. Abscesses in conjunction with laminitis are an added complication and added pain to an already painful situation.

I imagine the abscess is sub solar - as in on the sole. Just keep the horse poulticed and protected and wait.

Ellemoo said:
Is it just a coincidence that she has had her front shoes off for a week and a half, and this has happened? Did having shoes on 'mask' a problem that was brewing and now shes barefoot it has come to a head?
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Chicken and egg. She may have had problems brewing and the shoes were stopping her from feeling it. She may have kicked this all off as a result of suddenly bearing weight on thin, unhealthy soles. I usually recommend people use boots/pads immediately post removing shoes if the soles are that thin, or keep the shoes on for another cycle and make other changes to let the soles thicken more. No matter now. What's happened has happened.

Ellemoo said:
Also, vet recommended i feed her a handful of 'happy hoof' to give her danilon and acp- as this is the 'best' feed for her if she does have laminitus aparantly- is this right?
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I'm not a fan of HH - the Laminitis logo is bought and paid for. If that's what you have and if that's what it takes to get the bute into her then fine. But it will not help the situation - even if it does no harm. You want feeds that help the situation and help to thicken the soles up.

Non molassed, pref non alfalfa feeds - Fast Fibre/unmolassed beet/unmolassed hay chaff/straw chaff are helpful.
The feeds you are using are purely to use as a base for medication at this point.
Are you soaking her hay?

Ellemoo said:
Any thoughts on the above questions? As i said ive not had any problems like this before so i feel a bit lost tbh :(

Thanks in advance :)
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Keep her hooves protected by the poultices at present, with plenty of padding under the sole.

If the vet has recommended box rest - then honour that. But when the vet is happy - movement on a soft surface within her comfort level is very helpful to get the blood moving.

If you are intending to keep the shoes off for a while - then you need to invest in some boots and pads until she has grown enough sole to protect her coffin bones. If her soles are flat with no concavity at all - her coffin bones are too low within the hoof capsule (don't panic - it's common) and she needs time and an appropriate diet to remedy that (she will do so in her own time with your help).

I can't impart how important diet is. It is essential to help her lay down the correct tissue.
Horses don't get heart disease, they get hoof disease. You need to get the sugar and starch to less than 10% and get the correct balance of minerals on board.

Without the appropriate diet, a laminitic will not improve post going from acute into chronic.

Second to diet is trimming - she needs to have her toes short to relieve break over and she needs to have sole and frog tissue left well alone. Obviously the trimming needs to be careful and sympathetic to help her move forwards.
 
Oberon- thank you!
She is being fed hay that is soaked for 12 hours minimum :)
I was hoping to keep her barefoot all the time since having her fronts off, so i definately want to find a decent diet for her to support the health of her feet! (if yourself or anyone could help with that id appreciate it! :o) How do i know if she has thin soles?? Vet and local tack shop have both said 'definately happy hoof- its approved by the laminitus trust etc blah blah... so i dont know what would be a good diet for her for the long run, not just to use or her meds to be fed in.
I must confess that im not an expert when it comes to feet, and i only really know as much as my farrier has told me in the past about her feet ie- they are very strong and healthy (or not as the case seems right now) Until she came in lame yesterday she had seemed comfy without shoes, walking confidently down the lumpy concrete track etc.

Sorry if im asking numpty questions, im just tryin to do the best for my girl and id rather be seen to look stupid asking these things than not ask!! :o
 
Everyone starts somewhere - you are starting with a baptism of fire
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I've sent you a pm.

If she can tolerate it - take some pics of her hooves (side view from the ground and sole view) and we can take a look. It's not the same as seeing in 3D, but it might yield some info.

If she's had shoes on - then her soles will be thin. How thin is the question. If you can flex her sole with your thumb - then she is very thin and you need to try and persuade the vet not to use hoof testers! It's like using a mallet to crack an egg :)
 
Oberon said:
Everyone starts somewhere - you are starting with a baptism of fire
lol.gif
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I've sent you a pm.

If she can tolerate it - take some pics of her hooves (side view from the ground and sole view) and we can take a look. It's not the same as seeing in 3D, but it might yield some info.

If she's had shoes on - then her soles will be thin. How thin is the question. If you can flex her sole with your thumb - then she is very thin and you need to try and persuade the vet not to use hoof testers! It's like using a mallet to crack an egg :)
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This sort of thing makes me so paranoid about letting anyone do anything to her feet! :( I will take some pictures later on and post them here (should be about 730pm when i get home)
I will have a gentle try and see if her sole feels thin, although it does always look like the farrier has to use a fair bit of elbow grease to scrape them and the same for the vet yesterday when she had a little 'dig' around :(
 
Ellemoo said:
Thank you, ive not heard of fast fibre- will see if i can get my hands on that today!

She is on a thick bed of shavings right up to the door, treating her as if she ha laminitus as a precaution. Vet is coming back out on Tuesday to re assess the situation. She was reactive to the hoof testers on both front feet but there was an area to the side between her frog and the hoof wall on one foot that seemed more tender than the rest which was what made the vet think it was possibly an absess?

How much fast fibre can she have? The vet said to give her the tiniest handful of happy hoof twice daily just to give her the meds in but obv i think pony would be happier if she could have a slightly larger amount as she is acting like her throats been cut! :o
She is having 12 hour soaked hay aswell :)
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The Fast Fibre is used as a hay substitute for older horses, it is hi in fibre and in minerals, don't worry about giving too much, you can ring the Allen and Page helpline for advice on Monday.
Start off with one level pet scoop [dry] per feed, [it takes 2 mins to soak] and give two feeds per day [looks quite a lot when soaked]
You can poultice with animalinex and vetwrap to hasten any abscess.
Keep on a reasonable amount of soaked hay, lots of mini feeds, do not starve.
 
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Get your farrier out, he'll be able to find an abcess and dig it to relieve the pressure. He should also be able to tell you if it's laminitis. Farriers are the Gods of feet, I'd never be able to get an abcess to burst by poulticing alone.
 
Miss L Toe said:
Keep on a reasonable amount of soaked hay, lots of mini feeds, do not starve.
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Agree, at least 2 feeds and pref 3-4 (but we all have to be practical!),
High fibre low sugar, low starch.

Hi Fi Lite (or molasses free version), quick beat/speedie beat/equibeat (all v. low sugar content and high fibre), can feed LOADS of this as its measured in dry weight and expands by 3x i think! so looks rediculaous amount and would b if was a hard feed with cereal in, but its not so its fine!

Balancer or vits and minerals such as Equivit. mayb mag ox too as helps settle tummy and reduces inflamation.

These are good starting points, Oberon has posted on several other threads and talks sense (seems v knowledgeabel in this area), Im guessing from my own training that they too have some training/background in this area - bare foot and nutrition.

on a side note - My vets have fully admitted they know very litle about comercial feeds and their contents these days as there are so many avalable, (they advised me to feed barley to my underweight lami horse - one of worst things i could do!), they aslo said they do not do any foot/hoof disections as part of thier training so I prob know more than them in this area, usually they would refer to farrier, but they were happy for me to 'poke around the hoof' myseld with a hoof knife!:eek: I didnt do this i just poulticed!
 
Waltzing Matilda said:
These are good starting points, Oberon has posted on several other threads and talks sense (seems v knowledgeabel in this area), Im guessing from my own training that they too have some training/background in this area - bare foot and nutrition.

on a side note - My vets have fully admitted they know very litle about comercial feeds and their contents these days as there are so many avalable, (they advised me to feed barley to my underweight lami horse - one of worst things i could do!), they aslo said they do not do any foot/hoof disections as part of thier training so I prob know more than them in this area, usually they would refer to farrier, but they were happy for me to 'poke around the hoof' myseld with a hoof knife!:eek: I didnt do this i just poulticed!
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No disrespect to the vet that said to feed happy hoof (im hardly one to make comments when i didnt know what would be best myself!) But i just thought id ask on here before buying that incase there was a better option.
Ive had some very useful/helpful advice from Oberon and everyone else that has posted replies aswell, so thank you to you all! :)

Good god, im not sure if id want to go poking around Monroes foot with a knife myself!! :eek:
 
I have a lamanitic 19 year old that has suffered with repeat abcess problems for the last 10 years, I have discovered that the best thing to feed her has been Dodson and Horrell Safe and Sound that I am able to put any meds in. She also has soaked hay when she has to be kept in. You haven't said what may have caused the problem, is she prone to laminitus or is this just a one off? My horse can occasionally go a little lame and the abcess literaly bursts through within an hour or two then sometimes she is lame for days and I will poltice with no effect for up to a week before it bursts so really no hard and fast rule on that one. The tenderness in the feet could be caused by either problem. My mare has laminitus under stress this can be caused from any change in her routine even when there are new horses put in the fields next to hers she is so sensitive about everything.
 
Ellemoo said:
Good god, im not sure if id want to go poking around Monroes foot with a knife myself!! :eek:
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I think they just aid this as theyknow me well (and we had just consulted on a couple of lami cases they wanted some feed back on) and they knew I had approprite training and use a hoof knife as part of trimming, and I had done disections on feet so I know thier anatomy.
However because I know this info, I would not go poking around with a hoof knife!:mad:

Abcess burst a day or two later - no pus, horse just went sound and a few weeks later when I trimmed her found the blow hole in her hoof wall in the heel! :)
 
For the benefit of Oberon- Here are pictures of the offending foot (hopefully ive done it right! :o)
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Pony was in a fairly bad mood and i was holding foot and taking picture so hopefully its good enough to get the jist of what your looking for? All three pics are of the same foot, and there was no sign of any absess bursting that i could see/smell :o
 
Frog looks good and healthy (this is half the battle so good start)

However am disappointed that farrier hasn't trimmed bars or taken heel back, unless he has stated a specific reason for this?

In comparison to heels he has gone.quite short on the toe do the foot does not appear to b balanced.

Also.the hair line on.the second pick should be even but its a bit wobely, which would indicate foot not balanced.

However can only.go on what cam c on.pics so if feedback inaccurate my appologies. X
 
Waltzing Matilda said:
Frog looks good and healthy (this is half the battle so good start)

However am disappointed that farrier hasn't trimmed bars or taken heel back, unless he has stated a specific reason for this?

In comparison to heels he has gone.quite short on the toe do the foot does not appear to b balanced.

Also.the hair line on.the second pick should be even but its a bit wobely, which would indicate foot not balanced.

However can only.go on what cam c on.pics so if feedback inaccurate my appologies. X
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OK you will need to dumb these assesments down for me- i know nothing about feet and i must admit i fall into the category of assuming my farrier knows what hes doing and is doing it correctly :(
With regard to the 'wobbly' hair in the second picture, i had just taken the poultice off so the bandage had given her hair the equivalent of 'bed hair' in humans haha :p
 
My mare came in with suspected laminitis with an abscess (as well) about 2 weeks ago...took about a week and a half of tubbing and poulticing the foot and smothering in honey twice a day to soften the hoof enough for my vet to draw the pus out. I literally fed Cass a handful of healthy hoof (equivalent to happy hoof i think) to get her danilon in and she is very prone to laminitis so I'm sure that would be fine. She's trickle fed soaked hay through out the day with 2 small hole haynets inside of eachother and this seems to work well for her. She's had laminitis 4 times previously so have to be very careful.

Cass was very reactive to the hoof testers...after a few days she had little to no pulse and wasn't as reactive to the hoof testers but still was very very sore on the front left where her abscess was brewing!

The area where the nasty pus etc was hiding had what looked like a bruise on it before it was softened enough for the vet to get in. He said now it is gone it should heal fairly quickly (box rest for the next 10 days and go from there). My vet also recommended turnout once well on the way to recovery in a small pen with a soft surface but not lucky enough to have one at our yard - I guess good for circulation. Unfortunately with an abscess it is often a waiting game and some will be drawn out quickly, others may take weeks and weeks.

Good luck with your girl :) I didn't really know much about this either before it happened to me!
 
My impressions (which mean almost nothing);

Wall - good quality. I can see a touch of mechanical flaring to the lower half of the wall. Common in shod hooves and not terrible.

Toe - a touch long, but that is fine for having shoes off recently. Farrier has put a decent roll on the toe to ease break over.

Heels - look too high and pushed up at the coronet. Perhaps thinking about sneaking under. Easily fixed with time and a spell without shoes.

Quarters - look a bit stressed. Easily fixed with time.

Frog - looks healthy but a bit too 'clean'. Was it pared last trim? It and the digital cushions look a bit weak. Needs to do some work when comfy to strengthen them up.

Bars and heels - look bigger than you would expect. But the bigger bars and heels are protecting that weak frog and digital cushions for now. To cut them down at this stage would make the horse tender at the back of the hoof and make her walk on her toes to avoid discomfort....therefore putting more strain on the laminae.

White line - thicker than a credit card....so too thick. But I would defy anyone to find a horse in the UK at this time of year with a 'textbook' white line :p

Sole - SPLAT. Looks flat and I can almost see a bulge around the toe? Difficult to see in 2D. But if that is right - the bulge is the coffin bone dragging along the floor :p It should be up higher in the hoof capsule. The flat sole is a dietary signal. Need to make sure the farrier doesn't pare it - but it looks like your farrier has left it alone. Clever man!

The sole, toe area looks worn, like she is walking toe first rather than heel first. This would be consistent with the weak caudal area and should remedy with time.

What is that black spot near your thumb joint?

I am useless at seeing bruising - so I can't tell you if there is any or not and there is no way for me to tell you if the sole is thin from a picture.

But actually, all in all not a bad foot to start with and it looks like your farrier is providing a nice, conservative trim.
 
It's a bit hard to explain.with out drawing on pics, so.ill give it a go, but please excusee if I ramble or dampen things down too much, no insult intended.

Ideally the hoof wall.at the toe should only just b at the sane level as the sole.

At the heel the hoof wall should only b longer/deeper than the frog by approx the thicknes of a credit card. When they r trimmed lower (does depend on how healthy frog is, but urs looks good from pic), the point of heel will also move backwards, closer to frog, where it should b.

With regard to hair line it may b just pultice, but as heels r a bit high I would think it prob to do with this. It should be even. But if u look at first and second pick, there are angles on hair line.

Toe is a bit short for my likeing, but it may have been short wen.shod and not grown.enough yet.

The bars r the horny bits that run level.with the frog. These r slightly overlaid, which can cause pressure in the foot. But I wouldn't worry about this too much, its easy to fix.
 
Please don't worry, they r all really easy to fix, and farrier may b doing it gradually if only recently taken shoes off, but he should really have explained this to u imo.
 
Just read Oberons post.
From.outside toe looks long, but from sole side it looks short.
This is prob because bones have stoped down in hoof capsule as structures r weak

It will take time and balaned trimming to fix this.

It is not a 'bad trim' per say, but could b better.

I would like to c the heels a bit lower, and Mayb use pads to inhand walk if a bit sore, so gets blood flowing and starts healthing and stimulated growth. But wait until abcess/lami sorted. X
 
I reckon the toe is short on the solar view because she is landing toe first and it's excess wear.

The hoof won't look textbook at first, so neither will the trim.

You could trim a textbook hoof onto her straight away - but I doubt she'd thank us for it :p

She needs more time, dietary input and gentle stimulation.
 
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Please don't worry, they r all really easy to fix, and farrier may b doing it gradually if only recently taken shoes off, but he should really have explained this to u imo.
 
Oberon said:
My impressions (which mean almost nothing);

Wall - good quality. I can see a touch of mechanical flaring to the lower half of the wall. Common in shod hooves and not terrible.

Toe - a touch long, but that is fine for having shoes off recently. Farrier has put a decent roll on the toe to ease break over.

Heels - look too high and pushed up at the coronet. Perhaps thinking about sneaking under. Easily fixed with time and a spell without shoes.

Quarters - look a bit stressed. Easily fixed with time.

Frog - looks healthy but a bit too 'clean'. Was it pared last trim? It and the digital cushions look a bit weak. Needs to do some work when comfy to strengthen them up.

Bars and heels - look bigger than you would expect. But the bigger bars and heels are protecting that weak frog and digital cushions for now. To cut them down at this stage would make the horse tender at the back of the hoof and make her walk on her toes to avoid discomfort....therefore putting more strain on the laminae.

White line - thicker than a credit card....so too thick. But I would defy anyone to find a horse in the UK at this time of year with a 'textbook' white line :p

Sole - SPLAT. Looks flat and I can almost see a bulge around the toe? Difficult to see in 2D. But if that is right - the bulge is the coffin bone dragging along the floor :p It should be up higher in the hoof capsule. The flat sole is a dietary signal. Need to make sure the farrier doesn't pare it - but it looks like your farrier has left it alone. Clever man!

The sole, toe area looks worn, like she is walking toe first rather than heel first. This would be consistent with the weak caudal area and should remedy with time.

What is that black spot near your thumb joint?

I am useless at seeing bruising - so I can't tell you if there is any or not and there is no way for me to tell you if the sole is thin from a picture.

But actually, all in all not a bad foot to start with and it looks like your farrier is providing a nice, conservative trim.
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Well this has given me a serious case of the worries! :p The black spot near my thumb is one of the areas that the vet scraped at with her knife while looking for an absess, as is the pale-ish patch between the frog and the outer edge of the hoof on half of her foot which is at the bottom of the picture if that makes sense?
 
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