Get tough you big softie.... how :S

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Horsekaren

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All of my instructors have now told me to get tough! I know I am soft but how do you over come it.
My horse often has a lack of impulsion, is lazy and quiet nappy when asked to work harder. I use a lot of let and ride with a short crop or a schooling crop which I tickle with.
My boy is really testing me lately, either a complete lazy nappy monster or overly forward and cantering when not asked.
Yesterday he went back to his old trick of trying to run my side into the fence... he hasn't done this for about 6 months, I use my leg and tap but with my whip on the inside it doesn't really help then result to my inside rein to get my leg off the fence.

All my instructors have said I need to be firmer.... im just not sure how... I use a lot of leg, im bruised like a peach for the amount of leg I need to use. I tap with the whip and shout at him. What else can I do???

He ok on the ground, no longer runs off pulls. picks his feet up, stand when asked, backs up. Can be a bit nippy with his girth and dances a little when mounting. Back checked and saddle checked 3 months ago and due to be done again in a few weeks.
 
Your instructors should be telling you what to actually do, there is no point in shouting at someone to be firmer/ get tough etc if they don't follow up with correct instructions on how to do so, your legs should not be bruised from using them imagine what his sides are like, he should not be running you into the fence and if he does using your inside rein is not the way to stop it, you will lose control of the outside shoulder and he will continue to go where he wants.

I would go back to the very start, walk and halt, get him reacting to a soft aid backed up by a correctly timed flick of the schooling whip if he doesn't walk forward when asked, repeat until he is walking actively from a tiny aid, the same with the transition to halt, you should think halt and he should come back from just a suggestion, all the time keeping him straight, not allowing his shoulders to deviate and you learning how to steer, hate that word but it fits here, from your seat and legs rather than the inside rein, only then would you move on to trot doing exactly the same, walk, trot, walk, expecting him to listen to a subtle aid backed up by the schooling whip if required, using plenty of variety in the movements so he is really on the aids.

It takes time, half the battle is being strict with yourself as much as with the horse, it is no good accepting a half hearted response you want to have him working with you and wanting to listen so the "rules" need to be black and white with no grey areas to confuse matters, that said you need to have some fun and so does he so get out hacking, encourage him to go forward, do some polework and jumping to mix things up a bit and always start and finish on a long rein allowing him to stretch, end on a good note even if it means cutting a session a bit short, sometimes 10 mins of good work is more beneficial that an hour of mediocre work where you don't progress in any way. With ours if they have done what is required we may cut it short and go for a hack or pop a few fences to end on something fun.


Just to add I would not use several instructors at this stage, pick one that you feel can help the most and stick with them or look for a new one to start afresh, too many different ideas even if the aim is the same can confuse things.
 
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I remember working on this myself :D... I think what being "tough" is, is actually "meaning what you say" to a horse! Aids have to be clear and consistent. I am told regularly to remember that if I am not clear and specific with my aids, the horse has every right to ignore me :D.

A horse will get nappy and refuse aids if you the rider just willy nilly give a tap here or there without actually being clear what you mean. You've left your riding open to interpretation!

Being firmer actually means being CLEAR with your instructions! E.g. What do you want a horse to do? Go forward? Then ask with your leg, if no response back up with a whip, no response? Back up with a clearer whip and leg message until you get a forward movement and REWARD.

Start with groundwork and ask for back, forward left & right etc and EXPECT a response. If none then ask again until you get one. It's not on for you not to back it up because then you have taught the horse to just ignore you because frankly you have no meaning, you are not clear enough.

It's not about shouting and hitting and being all "tough" - it's about clarity and consistency. Say you mean and mean what you say.
 
What bp has said is right you need to be strict with your aids and ride with the same concept every time, I use a light leg aid and if I don't get a forward response I use a sharp leg and use my stick I don't care if the horse jumps off into a canter the main thing is I got a forward reaction.

I would do lots of halt to walk and walk to trot transitions using a light leg as soon as he ignores you use a sharp leg aid until you get a forward reaction your horse should move off straight away aim for a jump into the trot, but you have to follow this way of riding every time you ride teach him soft leg means forward, don't settle for anything less ever and you will soon have a horse that is off your leg, you won't have to work half as hard then and hopefully no more bruises!
 
Agree with tallyho!

J was lazy and nappy at first (due to being unfit and not schooled regularly in previous home). I found that I had to 'get tough' which basically just meant be firm. I spent lots of time doing transitions with him to get him off my leg and being clear that I expected him to transition straight away, that meant not flapping about until he eventually decided to trot, it meant: ask nicely for a trot, if get no response, ask bigger with the legs, if no response still, he got a sharp tap with the stick.

I think it just means being clear, I've been teaching my OH to ride on J and sometimes he could 'let him get away with things', like J would decide when to trot and OH would say 'but I wasn't going to ask him to trot in a minute away'. Doesn't matter, he slows down when YOU ask not when he wants to. Same with upwards transitions.

Horses get to spend most of their day in the fields with their friends not doing anything so for the half an hour or hour I'm riding he can do as I ask. And praise when he gets it right. I do use my voice when I ride but I don't shout or get frustrated, I use it to aid the transitions.


And as bepositive said, your instructor should be clearer in what they mean when they ask you to do something. There's no point in them asking you to be firmer but not telling you how. I'd ask your instructor to be clearer or even perhaps try a new instructor who might be a bit clearer with you.
 
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Agree with the above. Be clear and consistent with aids. Ask once and expect a reaction, escalate from there if needed but always go back to the lightest aid each time you ask. They soon learn to go from a light aid.

It's important to stop using your aids when the horse has responded - take your leg off and 'cruise' until it's required again. Otherwise they become dead to the aids, and you become sore.
 
I've also done quite a bit of transition work on the lunge with mine. She gets a lot sharper trying to anticipate what I want her to do next and because I use voice commands I've been able to take that into my ridden work.
 
Thanks so much, this is brilliant.
I think you're absolutely right go back to basics. I am not use to using a schooling whip, it only really comes out when he is being stubborn so I am going to go right back to basics to get him understanding what it means.

So squeeze of the leg- if no reaction bigger leg aid--- if no reacting whip
He isn't to bad to get moving but its the forward motion I struggle with, at the moment I squeeze with every few strides to ask for more so I suppose one squeeze, bigger leg aid and then whip to give my legs a break and back off completely when he does this.

My next question would be what id he doesn't listen to my whip, sometimes he will Nap nd start to swing his bum.. what aid would you use for this, a harder tap? :S

Im so desperate to try and get him working nicely forward as that is when it all comes together, he uses his hind quarters and drops his head into my contact. At the moment contact is just impossible whilst he is being so stubborn... but bless him he is probably confused because I'm not clear enough and he is realising that sometimes I don't mean what I say as I am not firm enough so he is clearly taking the mick i.e ramming me into a fence. So if I can get him use to lighter aids me using my outside leg lightly to say away from the fence will be more beneficial than me trying so hard to push him over with my leg that he just ignores it.

I am not going to lie, the correct use of leg aids is a new concept to me (only been doing this for about 8 months) and boooooy is it hard work.....
My theory is some horses need so much more leg, I watch other horses and I see the legs are not required evens a 5th as much as mine. I guess this is something to work towards with lighter aids or are some horses just in need of less leg.

No lie the word leg is used sooo much so I wouldn't have never come to the conclusion to actually stop asking with so much leg until he responds right away.
 
When I was a kid I had an instructor who used to say 'be nice twice' - she meant you ask with your leg twice and if ignored then a sharp smack.

I'm another who has had to learn with current horse to take the leg off immediately she responds. I hadn't realised how much I was nagging her with my leg until I changed instructors.
 
Horsekaren said:
My theory is some horses need so much more leg, I watch other horses and I see the legs are not required evens a 5th as much as mine. I guess this is something to work towards with lighter aids or are some horses just in need of less leg.

No lie the word leg is used sooo much so I wouldn't have never come to the conclusion to actually stop asking with so much leg until he responds right away.
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Hmmmm I guess you're theory could be right in some cases. Some horses are very sensitive so will overreact to the leg so obviously need less to get going. My boy is very laidback so, at first, when I gave him a leg aid he was just not bothered at all.
However, these are both schooling issues and reactive horses can be taught to not overreact and lazy horses can be taught to react quicker.

I've been through it and it's difficult trust me. I got J two years ago and if I wasn't asking him to go with the leg he would crumble into a walk and it's very difficult to fight the urge to kick with every stride (I still get it wrong sometimes). Once he does the correct aid (going into trot) you want leg off, if you keep kicking then he will learn that he only goes when he's being kicked all the time, then if you want another upwards transition you have to kick bigger to tell them you want a different pace and it all just spirals into kicking them constantly.

I think on a previous thread you said you were nervous of hacking him, but I did find this helped J and I. I could take him out for a hack and he was more responsive to my leg anyway, so I could practice keeping my leg off more and only using it when needed. At first he was still a bit lazy, but he would trot on better on a hack so I could keep my leg off much more. This then helped our schooling as he learnt once he's going at a proper pace, i take my leg off and don't bother him.
 
Does this horse get schooled by an experienced rider in addition to yourself?
If not I'd reccomend it.
Firstly I'd want to be sure the horse truly understands leg aids and is at a point where he can confidently be expected to know what you are asking for. Regular schooling by an experienced jockey will help both you and him.

Then where you are at the point where he is sufficiently fit and educated then you have the right to get tough on him when he is taking the piddle. Don't faff around with increasing/multiple leg aids and tickling him with your whip. It will only desensitise the response (as you are finding out!). Horses can feel a fly land on them, so they can damn well feel one light leg aid. You can have this sorted in under a week if you consistently get after him (and blooming mean it), the second he ignores your first aid. It's not pretty initially, but one of those things that with the idle ones you sometimes have to go through to make life better for everyone.
 
You use the term 'tap' to describe your use of the whip.

IMO a rap is not going to be clear enough.

When I ride, I ask quietly with a squeeze. If the response is not there then I give a clear kick. If still no response then I will give one sharp smack with the whip and I will mean it.

I would rather give a meaningful smack once than have to keep kick kick kicking my horse in the ribs.
 
This is one of the areas I am to soft, my tap is more of a gentle flick. So more of a harder smack so he listens right away rather than tickle tickle lol

I hate being on at his ribs, I squeeze and squeeze so I guess im just making him dead to the sides.



Peter7917 said:
You use the term 'tap' to describe your use of the whip.

IMO a rap is not going to be clear enough.

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ihatework said:
Does this horse get schooled by an experienced rider in addition to yourself?
If not I'd reccomend it.
Firstly I'd want to be sure the horse truly understands leg aids and is at a point where he can confidently be expected to know what you are asking for. Regular schooling by an experienced jockey will help both you and him.

Then where you are at the point where he is sufficiently fit and educated then you have the right to get tough on him when he is taking the piddle. Don't faff around with increasing/multiple leg aids and tickling him with your whip. It will only desensitise the response (as you are finding out!). Horses can feel a fly land on them, so they can damn well feel one light leg aid. You can have this sorted in under a week if you consistently get after him (and blooming mean it), the second he ignores your first aid. It's not pretty initially, but one of those things that with the idle ones you sometimes have to go through to make life better for everyone.
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He does get ridden by more experienced people but there isn't to much difference. They also get lured into a nagging leg.

I have found this which I am going to try, I am taking to out for a lesson for the first time on the weekend so im hoping this might be a good opportinty to try this when he is more reliant on me due to being in a new environment.... I hope anyways

If you are pushing just to prevent the horse from grinding to a halt, the horse is not responding correctly to your leg. Use the following exercise to correct his response.
On a loose rein, ask the horse to lengthen his stride. If he goes forward willingly, great. If he gives you a lazy response, you need to clarify your aids.
The next time, nudge him with your heels and tap him lightly on the shoulder with your whip immediately after. You should expect the horse to jump forward from this, so be ready to keep your hands forward and soft, and to stay with him. Let him trot or even canter forward for a few strides without touching his mouth, so he that really gets the point.
Now go back to walk, and try using your leg with the original aid, and see what response you get. If he is unwilling again, repeat the exercise until you get a satisfactory response. Remember that you’re not just using the whip as if it is something you would normally do – this is a correction, so that you can then use a lighter leg aid.
��Top tip��
Once a horse has responded to any aid, stop doing it immediately so that he can realise he has done the right thing. If you keep nudging him with your leg once he is going forward or keep kicking him when he is ignoring you, you underline the disobedience Tina Sederholm’s tips
 
I am upping my hacking to try and mix up his life a bit more :D getting there with it but I find he needs little leg, he responds to a squeeze or even just a cluck. So it is deffo an issue which occurs when he doesn't want to work. I appreciate you saying it is difficult, im so desperate to hit the all coming together point lol I feel I get so close then booom he changes tactics.
Amye said:
Hmmmm I guess you're theory could be right in some cases. Some horses are very sensitive so will overreact to the leg so obviously need less to get going. My boy is very laidback so, at first, when I gave him a leg aid he was just not bothered at all.
However, these are both schooling issues and reactive horses can be taught to not overreact and lazy horses can be taught to react quicker.

I've been through it and it's difficult trust me. I got J two years ago and if I wasn't asking him to go with the leg he would crumble into a walk and it's very difficult to fight the urge to kick with every stride (I still get it wrong sometimes). Once he does the correct aid (going into trot) you want leg off, if you keep kicking then he will learn that he only goes when he's being kicked all the time, then if you want another upwards transition you have to kick bigger to tell them you want a different pace and it all just spirals into kicking them constantly.

I think on a previous thread you said you were nervous of hacking him, but I did find this helped J and I. I could take him out for a hack and he was more responsive to my leg anyway, so I could practice keeping my leg off more and only using it when needed. At first he was still a bit lazy, but he would trot on better on a hack so I could keep my leg off much more. This then helped our schooling as he learnt once he's going at a proper pace, i take my leg off and don't bother him.
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Are your instructors making sure you're not blocking the horse from moving in other ways? i.e. with hands or seat? Have they even talked about the seat? If the rider's legs are asking the horse to go, but there is a stiff, immobile, unbalanced thing in the middle, the horse will feel like he's being asked to do two things at once -- stop and go. A lot of educated horses don't like moving with an unbalanced rider (my schoolmistress mare will not go forward for love nor money until the rider is reasonably balanced and allows forward motion), while uneducated ones will just be confused and concerned.

Sure, some horses will try to 'get out of work' because they can't be bothered and they've learned not working is easier than working. But the vast majority of nappy behaviours the vast majority of the time (in my experience) come from the horse being unable to do as asked or not understanding what he's being asked. That means it's not fit enough, not trained enough, not sound enough, or the aids not clear enough.

As for those lazy horses who have figured out how to take advantage of a rider, they can be brought around with clear, firm, yet sympathetic riding. The other posters in this thread have described how to do that. If a horse is kicked until the rider's legs are bruised, shouted at, pulled around by the inside rein, it's not going to improve his attitude towards work. Instead (to anthropomorphise a bit) he will think, "This sucks as much as I thought it would. I'm gonna try harder to get out of it." With a rider who's clear with their cues, he will think, "Moving forward is hard, but she sits so light and quiet and pats me on the neck. I guess that's easier than the dressage whip to the bum."

If you are coming to this forum for advice, and if everything we have said above is new information, you need better riding instructors.
 
I personally would not hit a horse in the shoulder to improve the forward. You want the horse to move away from the whip, which is why I use a dressage whip behind my leg. If you hit the shoulder, that seems like an aid that would confuse a horse or stop the forward. I dunno.... People do it in hunter/jumper land, so it must work sometimes. I just don't like it.
 
Agree with what others have said, you need to really mean it when you ask. It's especially important not to nag a lazy horse, which is very difficult especially at first! They need to learn that when your leg goes on they have to GO, and then after they learn that they have to learn that they are to maintain the pace you put them in until you ask for something different. First time you ask, put your leg on clearly, if he doesn't respond, boot him, if he still doesn't respond smack him and boot him. It sounds harsh, but I promise he'll learn quickly to respond to the first aid. Don't worry about what pace he goes forward into as long as he goes forward! If you smack him in walk and he starts cantering, reward him! Refinement can come later but he's doing what you asked! If you can keep it consistent he'll learn very quickly and both your lives will be a lot easier. Don't worry if it looks messy to start with, do what you need to do to get the response you want, and worry about making it neater once he is responding quickly. But also as others have said, the best person to help you is a good instructor!
 
If he evades your aids by spinning and napping, you need to be proficient with the rein aids now to stop this. You must have control of the shoulders and if you can't do that you haven't really got his attention or respect. I agree with Caol Ila... the seat is a powerful influence in all this (it's your core). Have you ever had a gander at any of Mary Wanless' books? Reason I recommend her specifically is that she is excellent at giving good visual explanations about riding influence. Sylvia Loch's the classical seat will also help you I feel. You will get there!! :)
 
Horsekaren said:
I appreciate you saying it is difficult, im so desperate to hit the all coming together point lol I feel I get so close then booom he changes tactics.
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There's no quick fixes unfortunately. It's all about being consistent and it can take time.
I've had my boy 2 years and I know I'm not a brilliant rider. I'm not all that experienced with training horses so my progress with J has been slower than perhaps other people. But when I look back at what he was like when I first got him, he is a million times better. He is 2 years older but feels younger. Even when I compare what he was like to last year he's better. It doesn't 'come together' for us all the time, we have fun and he works nicely for me now but I know I still have lots to learn with him and I know I can improve, which will then improve him.

Sometimes you need to look back at the small things that have improved rather than thinking it's not all come together.
 
'
All of this advise I am finding super helpful.
I haven't been told that i'm unbalanced but maybe I am, what would this feel like for me? because I feel quiet secure, apart from canter but im getting there.
As for the seat I have a basic understanding of how to use it to help but most focus is on legs and contact.

I don't want to be to harsh on my instructors, they are really good, when we have a good lesson it is such a buzz but I think where I am still learning and trying to get to grips with riding correctly there is just so much for me to learn. ... but as I said the improvement seems to have ground to a halt as I cant get him to be forward but with all the tips on here I think I am going to try a different approach :)
I say leg I mean leg, rather than just leg leg leg leg leg ect



Caol Ila said:
Are your instructors making sure you're not blocking the horse from moving in other ways? i.e. with hands or seat? Have they even talked about the seat? If the rider's legs are asking the horse to go, but there is a stiff, immobile, unbalanced thing in the middle, the horse will feel like he's being asked to do two things at once -- stop and go. A lot of educated horses don't like moving with an unbalanced rider (my schoolmistress mare will not go forward for love nor money until the rider is reasonably balanced and allows forward motion), while uneducated ones will just be confused and concerned.

Sure, some horses will try to 'get out of work' because they can't be bothered and they've learned not working is easier than working. But the vast majority of nappy behaviours the vast majority of the time (in my experience) come from the horse being unable to do as asked or not understanding what he's being asked. That means it's not fit enough, not trained enough, not sound enough, or the aids not clear enough.

As for those lazy horses who have figured out how to take advantage of a rider, they can be brought around with clear, firm, yet sympathetic riding. The other posters in this thread have described how to do that. If a horse is kicked until the rider's legs are bruised, shouted at, pulled around by the inside rein, it's not going to improve his attitude towards work. Instead (to anthropomorphise a bit) he will think, "This sucks as much as I thought it would. I'm gonna try harder to get out of it." With a rider who's clear with their cues, he will think, "Moving forward is hard, but she sits so light and quiet and pats me on the neck. I guess that's easier than the dressage whip to the bum."

If you are coming to this forum for advice, and if everything we have said above is new information, you need better riding instructors.
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Horsekaren said:
This is one of the areas I am to soft, my tap is more of a gentle flick. So more of a harder smack so he listens right away rather than tickle tickle lol

I hate being on at his ribs, I squeeze and squeeze so I guess im just making him dead to the sides.
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I try to use a small leg aid to first ask. If the response isn't want I want I then give a tap tap tap with stick until I do get a response, it can often be a buck but stick with it until he's doing what I want and I sit very still. For the very lazy one tap isn't enough. Bring back to walk and then ask again using the same small leg aid. If you get the response first time big pats and hugs all round.

Its VERY hard but making it very black and white is helping. Also don't bother with bend, too much of a contact ect at this point.
 
Horsekaren said:
'
All of this advise I am finding super helpful.
I haven't been told that i'm unbalanced but maybe I am, what would this feel like for me? because I feel quiet secure, apart from canter but im getting there.
As for the seat I have a basic understanding of how to use it to help but most focus is on legs and contact.

I don't want to be to harsh on my instructors, they are really good, when we have a good lesson it is such a buzz but I think where I am still learning and trying to get to grips with riding correctly there is just so much for me to learn. ... but as I said the improvement seems to have ground to a halt as I cant get him to be forward but with all the tips on here I think I am going to try a different approach :)
I say leg I mean leg, rather than just leg leg leg leg leg ect
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It's a lifelong project. The seat needs to be balanced, soft, AND following, while communicating half-halts, activity/engagement, and steering to the horse. I've seen riders do reining and dressage bridleless, with imperceptable leg aids, because their seats are that good. It's something most riders spend a lifetime working on as very few of us are Charlotte Dujardin. Follow Tallyho's advice and read Sylvia Loch and Mary Wanless, for a start, and also Sally Swift. You can feel and look balanced, but still block the horse or make it unbalanced.

When I was a kid, one of my instructors kept me on the lunge line for about six months. Being 11 and just wanting to ride, I hated it but now I understand why she did it. The time on the lunge line allows the rider to focus on the seat first, then legs and contact once they have a good seat. The school of thought being that the seat is real foundation of riding, the aid that effects the horse the most, while the reins and legs will never be correct and effective if the rider does not have a good seat.
 
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Its a 'mindset'. It comes from within and is a way of thinking. Hard to explain, but its just a zero tolerance of anything other than what you are asking. You will hear many (most!) top instructors just yelling 'give it a bl**dy kick!' and it is this sort of total insistence that will eventually get the results. Its not pretty - elegance goes out the window, but it really is a case of you WILL do this and you will do it NOW sort of approach. Until you toughen up yourself, it may be tricky, but a tougher instructor will help. I am sometimes perhaps a little soft then something clicks in my head (I get fed up of her messing around) and thats when i actually pick up my horse and start to ride her. Dont get me wrong, im not saying be harsh, im just saying up your expectations and accept nothing less.
 
Was hacking out with some friends once and friends horse in the lead started napping and refusing to go forwards. Friend put leg on and gave some kicks forward, but I could see instantly that there was nothing in her body that really meant it. The horse knew this aswell. In the end, I popped in the lead and she followed. I asked what she would have done if I hadn't been there and she said 'turn around and gone home because he wasn't listening'.
It really is a sort of state of mind. You have to mean what you say. So if you ask for forwards, you have to 100% believe you will get what you want and then you make sure you get it. If you don't get it, you have to make sure you do something TO get it. It's not about being harsh or aggressive, it's about being confident- a confidence that you know you can get the desired response. A horse is pretty good at picking up on when someone means business and someone who doesn't.
 
ahahahhaha you could have wrote the hacking comment about me..

ok so if im going to bother to ask I need to bother to get the correct response not just settle for where ever half asked response I get given! Gotcha!!! oooo im excited for my next scooling session :D
scats said:
Was hacking out with some friends once and friends horse in the lead started napping and refusing to go forwards. Friend put leg on and gave some kicks forward, but I could see instantly that there was nothing in her body that really meant it. The horse knew this aswell. In the end, I popped in the lead and she followed. I asked what she would have done if I hadn't been there and she said 'turn around and gone home because he wasn't listening'.
It really is a sort of state of mind. You have to mean what you say. So if you ask for forwards, you have to 100% believe you will get what you want and then you make sure you get it. If you don't get it, you have to make sure you do something TO get it. It's not about being harsh or aggressive, it's about being confident- a confidence that you know you can get the desired response. A horse is pretty good at picking up on when someone means business and someone who doesn't.
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one last question...
when they start to respond to your aids correctly how do you reward? just with you voice? is the reward the leg aid stopping?
 
Lots of useful advice above, so I won't add to it - but there is one thing! The scraping you on the school fence thing. A useful tip for stopping that in its tracks is to turn the horses head towards the fence he's trying to scrape you on - so that his nose is closer to the fence than your leg. No horse in it's right mind is going to bash it's own face on a fence - it tends to put them off that little trick very quickly. Outside bend also moves the horses quarters off the fence, so that your leg is no longer getting squished!
 
Horsekaren said:
one last question...
when they start to respond to your aids correctly how do you reward? just with you voice? is the reward the leg aid stopping?
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Yes a simple "good boy" a stroke or a scratch (I don't like patting or slapping) anything you normally use that he knows is a good sign from you he's done the right thing. And be consistent with that too!

There is much in the stopping the stopping the aid as soon as he responds... it's called the "descent de mains" or lower the hand literally - but essentially it's 1. Aid 2. Response. 3. Descent de mains. No point nagging away once you've got what you want so go back to being soft and allowing.

The fence thing... is it only on one rein? Or both?
 
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