Getting a horse out of your personal space

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joulsey

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I've been asked to work with a friends horse who needs his manners re-installing.

Hes a lovely boy, they haven't had him long and he has been having some down time in the field. He has a tendancy to just plough through them if there's a patch of grass he wants to go to, that's getting under control now though. He isn't really bargy, in fact he is more like a lap dog in the sense he does not know what your personal space is and his nose is attached to your shoulder at all times. He knows how to lunge, once you can get him out on the line, which is very very difficult with one person. I have a few ideas in mind for what to do with him.

How would you approach teaching him to get out of your space, I would be interested in hearing different views......
 
I have been having ground work lessons with my boy and this is how we have been doing it. Bridle and lunge rope round back of horses chin through the bit. Start off walking. As soon as horse comes next to you turn round to face it and wave lunge line causing horse to back up. Once horse still, rub head to make friends, walk on and repeat. It took my horse about 5 mins to realise his place was behind me. Once horse is leading a nice distance behind then start adding in halts. So if horse insists on halting near you repeat process if sending horse back with the lunge line for several steps. Always remember to make friends by rubbing head or somewhere horse likes. As soon as he enters you space at any point send him back immediately. We then progressed to lunging and asking him to move when I went towards his shoulders and then on to disengaging his hind end. I needed lessons to show me how and why we were doing things. I strongly recommend that if you are new to the groundwork then get professional advice.
 
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joulsey said:
I've been asked to work with a friends horse who needs his manners re-installing.

Hes a lovely boy, they haven't had him long and he has been having some down time in the field. He has a tendancy to just plough through them if there's a patch of grass he wants to go to, that's getting under control now though. He isn't really bargy, in fact he is more like a lap dog in the sense he does not know what your personal space is and his nose is attached to your shoulder at all times. He knows how to lunge, once you can get him out on the line, which is very very difficult with one person. I have a few ideas in mind for what to do with him.

How would you approach teaching him to get out of your space, I would be interested in hearing different views......
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I would ask you to be honest with yourself and do the best by this horse...by telling your friend that as you've felt the need to ask for advice, you are probably not the best person for the job.

Getting it wrong can make for a stressed and fearful horse...I strongly urge you to tell your friend to get someone in who knows what to do here...through experience. Better still, you and your friend watch so that you can both learn from someone rather than try it yourself and possibly do more harm than good.

Apologies if thats not what you wanted to hear, but we're talking about a live animal, we should never risk their wellbeing for the sake of trying to do something were not sure about.

Bottom line, if you need to ask basic advice, your not ready to do it alone.
 
_GG_ said:
I would ask you to be honest with yourself and do the best by this horse...by telling your friend that as you've felt the need to ask for advice, you are probably not the best person for the job.

Getting it wrong can make for a stressed and fearful horse...I strongly urge you to tell your friend to get someone in who knows what to do here...through experience. Better still, you and your friend watch so that you can both learn from someone rather than try it yourself and possibly do more harm than good.

Apologies if thats not what you wanted to hear, but we're talking about a live animal, we should never risk their wellbeing for the sake of trying to do something were not sure about.

Bottom line, if you need to ask basic advice, your not ready to do it alone.
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I do think that that is a little harsh considering I have only asked how other people would approach it. As I have said I already have my own thoughts and ideas on how to approach the issue I was just looking to see how others would and how they differ. I have done alot of ground work with a number of youngsters over the years and I can assure you that I have never put any stress or fear into any of them.
 
Joulsey I can see why GG replied as she did. In your first post it did sound a bit like you hadn't done it before. If you hadn't had your previous experience doing it it is so easy to frighten them!! Hope you get results when you have decided the best way forward.
 
Agree with Charlie007 but think a long lead rope (look for 12ft line on ebay etc) is better than a lunge line as it's a bit more rigid and less likely to tangle. Headshy or spooky horses can also find a lunge line a bit scary.
You need to do this in an arena or lunge pen so he is focused on you and then transfer it to a leading situation - to and from the field or whatever. If you are confident on the ground and assertive (in a good way!) you don;t need to be a self-professed horsemanship expert to get results! I'm a perfectly ordinary horse owner with a mature, fully trained QH that has a massive personality and about twice a year a groundwork session is useful to remind him of his priorities! I don't feel the need to get my trainer in :D although of course I would if I had a serious issue.
 
I would have the recommended associate for Intelligent horsemanship out. The two track leading and ground hitching work I did with Suzanne Halsey (Kent region) was amazing. The reading and videos are good but seeing someone who really knows how to do it, take up your horse and in a matter of minutes, have them doing what you have struggled with for ages, is mind boggling. Then you get taught how to do it as well. The thing is the ground work lessons are fun and can lead to the riding part improving as well. I am an experienced horse owner of 40 years and the one thing I have learnt is that sometimes no matter how good you are you need to call in some help. In the end the lessons cost no more then a normal riding lessons and are fun. You could struggle for ages when a couple of lessons and its sorted.
 
From what I gather they have had one person out who they didn't rate at all and they have some more numbers. I agree completely if you are struggling to get help and it's always fun learning new things, personally I love doing groundwork with horses. I haven't actually worked with him yet but I'll see what I think and as I say they have a few more contacts. Horses for courses, there are so many different ways of doing things I guess it's just finding the right method/ trainer that suits the horse
 
I would show him by my body language, ie turn of shoulders (making yourself large) to show disapproval. This is how horses react in the wild, they pick up on body language very easily.

If the horse is hard to lunge and keeps turning inwards, why not use two lines on him, with the outside line either going through a stirrup iron (fastened to the other one under the belly with string or stirrup leather) or with the use of a lunging roller? Doing this was the only way I could teach my horse to halt, he would walk slowly for about 1/4 mile after the command to whooa was given!! :)
 
joulsey said:
I have done alot of ground work with a number of youngsters over the years and I can assure you that I have never put any stress or fear into any of them.
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There will have been no need to put fear or stress into a youngster if the animal had been brought up properly from foal stage. There in lies your problem with the horse that you are now asking about. You say he is like a lap dog, he is on top of you, he does not respect his handlers, why - because whoever was responsible for him from weaning to now has ruined him. He is not halter broken. The fact you can lead him and make an attempt at lunging does not mean he is correctly halter broken.

A short moment of well timed and experienced 'stress and fear' is exactly what it will take to halter break him and put him where he needs to be for his age. All you need is a rope halter or dually and a piece of blue pipe in terms of equipment, however the knowledge and experience needed to correct the behaviour quickly and kindly is a skill. It would only take a couple of short schooling sessions regarding pressure and release and you would have a mannerly horse.

Always handle young horses with the rule that you move the horse not the other way round, master that and the horse is halter broken, a pleasure to handle and set up for the rest of his life.
 
joulsey said:
I do think that that is a little harsh considering I have only asked how other people would approach it. As I have said I already have my own thoughts and ideas on how to approach the issue I was just looking to see how others would and how they differ. I have done alot of ground work with a number of youngsters over the years and I can assure you that I have never put any stress or fear into any of them.
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I didn't question you at all...just asked you to question yourself, don't take offence, I do it myself. If I'm ever not sure about something, my own personal weakness in equine knowledge is the hoof...I don't ask others how they approach, I go straight to a professional and learn from them.

Honestly, I only say it because if you find yourself asking advice on the Internet, you can get some wildly different, brilliant and equally scary advice, so I do think we owe it to horses other to take any chances.

It did read like you weren't that experienced because generally, experienced people only ask advice from people they know and trust, but it wasn't ever a judgement on you. It's advice I've given many times before and will always give, as I do it myself. I'll never apologise for that...because I always only ever have the welfare of the horse at heart.

Best of luck...it can be very rewarding. Xx
 
AdorableAlice said:
There will have been no need to put fear or stress into a youngster if the animal had been brought up properly from foal stage. There in lies your problem with the horse that you are now asking about. You say he is like a lap dog, he is on top of you, he does not respect his handlers, why - because whoever was responsible for him from weaning to now has ruined him. He is not halter broken. The fact you can lead him and make an attempt at lunging does not mean he is correctly halter broken.

A short moment of well timed and experienced 'stress and fear' is exactly what it will take to halter break him and put him where he needs to be for his age. All you need is a rope halter or dually and a piece of blue pipe in terms of equipment, however the knowledge and experience needed to correct the behaviour quickly and kindly is a skill. It would only take a couple of short schooling sessions regarding pressure and release and you would have a mannerly horse.

Always handle young horses with the rule that you move the horse not the other way round, master that and the horse is halter broken, a pleasure to handle and set up for the rest of his life.
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Absolutely and I agree with GG about getting very experienced, if not professional, help. In fact be careful when choosing a professional, some have more qualifications than experience.

I would never train a horse, most especially a bad mannered, bargey one, to walk behind me, that is just asking to be squashed! I expect my horses to walk with me at their shoulder, just the right position for a human elbow to give a sharp reminder, if necessary.
 
I agree with AA, with the proviso (that I know she means) that you never scare the horse. I expect my horses, of all ages, to walk politely next to me. I NEVER allow a horse to walk behind me. If they push, I push back, depending on how pushy the horse is I use my elbow or thumb just in front of their shoulder while standing square and facing them. If really bargy Mr Blue Pipe is your friend.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would never train a horse, most especially a bad mannered, bargey one, to walk behind me, that is just asking to be squashed! I expect my horses to walk with me at their shoulder, just the right position for a human elbow to give a sharp reminder, if necessary.
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I agree with this - the last place you want a horse with no respect for personal space is in a place you can't see what it is doing. I want to be mid neck though so I have control of the head - once you are at the shoulder if they want to ****** off ahead, you have no control (learned that lesson the hard way).

ETA - another thing to consider (again I have learned this from experience) is that if you instill that bit of discipline and the owner doesn't back it up, they may well end up worse for the owner than before. As well as teaching the horse, you also have to get the owner on side.
 
_GG_ said:
I didn't question you at all...just asked you to question yourself, don't take offence, I do it myself. If I'm ever not sure about something, my own personal weakness in equine knowledge is the hoof...I don't ask others how they approach, I go straight to a professional and learn from them.

Honestly, I only say it because if you find yourself asking advice on the Internet, you can get some wildly different, brilliant and equally scary advice, so I do think we owe it to horses other to take any chances.

It did read like you weren't that experienced because generally, experienced people only ask advice from people they know and trust, but it wasn't ever a judgement on you. It's advice I've given many times before and will always give, as I do it myself. I'll never apologise for that...because I always only ever have the welfare of the horse at heart.

Best of luck...it can be very rewarding. Xx
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As a persistent question asker since the age of two, I really must take issue with that! :)

I ask everyone (well, most) on the premise that, "A wise man can even learn from a fool". Ask someone who is obviously getting bad results how they do it and you will quickly learn what to avoid!

As a wise man once said to me, "Ask for advice and listen to it when you get it. You don't have to take it".

Personally, for bargy youngsters, I'd take a piece of stick, about two feet long and as thick as my thumb with a blunt point with me. I don't strike out or even move it. The stick remains static in relation to my body. If they walk into that, they are punishing themselves and I remain the good guy. We use rope halters all the time. They are as harsh or gentle as the handler makes them, but do learn all about pressure-and-release first.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I agree with this - the last place you want a horse with no respect for personal space is in a place you can't see what it is doing. I want to be mid neck though so I have control of the head - once you are at the shoulder if they want to ****** off ahead, you have no control (learned that lesson the hard way).
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That is why I lead on a halter rather than a head collar. Should the horse be so rude as to try to **** off ahead, the halter comes into play and brings its head round, if the handler is at the shoulder. When leading a horse which is prone to barging forward, I carry a schooling whip which is held in front of the nose to act as a physical, visual barrier and can be used totap the chest as a reminder. When working with this kind of horse, you need to be aware of its body language and ready to respond quickly before the behaviour it is thinking about happens. Ime, the best place for that is st the horse's shoulder, if you are at its head, you can't see enough of the horse and it can drop behind too easily.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
That is why I lead on a halter rather than a head collar. Should the horse be so rude as to try to **** off ahead, the halter comes into play and brings its head round, if the handler is at the shoulder. When leading a horse which is prone to barging forward, I carry a schooling whip which is held in front of the nose to act as a physical, visual barrier and can be used totap the chest as a reminder. When working with this kind of horse, you need to be aware of its body language and ready to respond quickly before the behaviour it is thinking about happens. Ime, the best place for that is st the horse's shoulder, if you are at its head, you can't see enough of the horse and it can drop behind too easily.
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I use a rope halter - I didn't say head, I said mid neck. It just gives you that little bit more control, even with a rope halter (they are not fail safe - if a horse wants to ****** off they still can).

ETA - I don't want to be yanking the head round, with all my might, of a horse that is pulling as it's a recipe for TMJ damage.
 
Ime, you don't need to yank the horse with all your might, if the halter is the right kind and positioned in the most effective place on the nose, the head comes round with a small increase in pressure, which is actually coming from the horse.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if an observer couldn't see much difference between your method and mine E. It sounds as if we both have an effective method for instilling manners into rude horses, which is what matters.


Just to add, I find that different halters work better for different horses, we currently lead 4 horses in 3 different halters, with different amounts of elasticity
 
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