Getting a horse to make a better shape over a fence.

[charlie76]

One of our horses is competing at BE novice level and was doing well last season but he does tend to jump a bit 'inverted' rather than basculing over a fence. He also finds shortening the canter quite difficult, if you get a shorter canter he tends to get in too deep esp to uprights and will have it down. This all means the SJ phase is pretty erratic and not the most pleasing to the eye although he gets round!
Any ideas on how to encourge the horse to make a better shape over his fences? The usual A frames don;t really help as he gets too much height and still doesn't jump with a particullary round back.
He is getting away with it at Novice level but he needs to improve before he moves up to intermediate.
Thanks

 

[KatB]

TBH the shape of the jump itself wouldn't concern me, its more about the adjustability of the canter which is more important, so you don't find him getting too deep!

If he wants to be careful, use a placing pole 3.5yards from the fence to make him get deeper and have to "break" at the whither can help... bounces at a decent height, and lots of grids with poles inbetween fences will make him take a rounder stride so have to use his back more...

 

[charlie76]

Thanks, the only trouble with having the placing pole close is that he then gets in close( as required ) but still jumps a bit hollow. I will try and get a vid on here.

 

[charlie76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHrVehIP_eE&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAg_mf7UQbc&feature=player_embedded

hmmm

 

[Dizzydancer]

I am probably not the right person to answer this but form your videos he seems to be putting his head up and hollowing before he reaches the jumps, he seems to be rushing a bit and that in itself will make him hollow over the jump. I agree with KatB that you need to be able to adjust his canter pace, so that would be where i would begin and if you can get him more collected he will probably auomatically begin to make a better shape, bounces are also good for getting a good shape.

 

[Lizzie66]

An instructor of my daughters recommended an oxer of crosses for encouraging the horse to bascule over a jump.

 

[livvyc_ria]

to improve his shape and encourage him to bascule the way you'd like build a v shape over an upright with two other poles.

I'll explain better....

put up an upright then place the ends of two other poles onto the upright pole..as if you were creating a tunnel to stop run outs if you were loose jumping. But instead of leaving them wide push the ends together so they make a v shape that you ride into, and jump over the point.

The more his shape improves the further you can push the poles and the point of the v out past the upright pole to make an almost spread with the v.

Might give it a look the first time you ride into it, but be as they say "leg on, be positive." I use this with all babies who make a flat shape, soon gets them stretching their neck, making the ideal shape. Nothing worse than a flat jump!

 

[soulfull]

Tim stockdale uses poles inbetween fences he says the one after the fence is the one that encourages the correct shape

So lots of gird work!

 

[hmccord]

Low but wide oxers and also a short pole thrown diagonally on the ground under the back bar of the oxer to encourage them to look down.

 

[Birker2020]

One of our horses is competing at BE novice level and was doing well last season but he does tend to jump a bit 'inverted' rather than basculing over a fence. He also finds shortening the canter quite difficult, if you get a shorter canter he tends to get in too deep esp to uprights and will have it down. This all means the SJ phase is pretty erratic and not the most pleasing to the eye although he gets round!
Any ideas on how to encourge the horse to make a better shape over his fences? The usual A frames don;t really help as he gets too much height and still doesn't jump with a particullary round back.
He is getting away with it at Novice level but he needs to improve before he moves up to intermediate.
Thanks

I understand that grid work is really beneficial to horses increasing their confidence and their atheleticism. My instructor recommended building grids on shorter strides so instead of a one non jumping stride distance being the usual 8 human strides or 24ft/24ft6" instead make the distances 7 human strides or 18-20ft distance. This will help encourage a horse to bascule, as will bounces at the start of the grid. You can also use bounces at the end of a grid but this should only be used for experienced combinations of horse and rider, as there will undoubtedly be a problem if the horse rushes through the grid really fast only to be confronted with a load of bounces at the end, scary stuff! I read somewhere that an ascending oxer will help snap the horses shoulders up whereas a descending oxer will help encourage a horse to use his hind quarters. A frames are really useful although I note that you don't find that. I also know someone that used to put a pole slanted horizontally across the front pole and back pole of an oxer which used to encourage a horse to bascule but I am not sure how safe this is! I'm no expert by any means but I love my grid work and I am sure my horse benefits from it. Just be careful not to make your distances too short as this will not be beneficial to your horse.

 

[charlie76]

thanks everyone for the ideas plenty to work with!

 

[Ella Bella]

Grid work and pole placement can assist with polishing a jumper but it's not going to fix this problem.
He disconnects from his rider and hollows out well before the base of the fence. To make matters worse the rider appeared to be heavy in the tack and pumping for a distance and a few times (that I could see) caught him in the mouth upon landing, also I am seeing a crooked approach. It's hard to have a horse engaged on approach when you lose the haunches in the corner.
This horse needs flatwork, work on a solid canter, suppling and stretching, etc.... Canter work over ground poles getting this horse relaxed and confidently shortening and lengthening. One you achieve a more relaxed rythym around a course of poles (staying engaged and on contact) go back to trotting small fences, a quiet ride is key. Jog in slow, relaxed and steady, keep the seat light, body tall and hands following (don't drop). Jog in, canter out.
This horse needs to learn to jump in contact, skilled hands and a quiet ride are crutial for gaining trust and to encourage optimum jump effort. Tricky to accomplish once bad habits form but not impossible to repair with time and finesse. Do you have a coach or trainer?

 

[charlie76]

yes, he does have a trainer. The trouble with this horse is that he will not allow you to ride him.On the flat he gets tense and if you ask him to shorten the canter past what he feels is acceptable he will rear. When he is jumping he is a bit more amenable as he is distracted by the jumps. He has been fully checked out medically but he is a big rangy horse who really struggles to shorten and contain the canter. If you ask him to wait in front of the fence he hollows.
We have tried to come to the fence in a light seat and/or holding a neck strap so there is no rider inference but it makes no difference.
actually, down a grid he is pretty much spot on, he just can't maintain round a course, the canter becomes hollow and disjointed and he becomes so hard in his back is almost impossible to sit correctly and be soft.
We have thought about different bits but again, he is a tricky horse and if he feels the bit is too strong he will rear.

 

[Ella Bella]

If you can't get him adjustable on the flat, on contact and engaged with a solid half halt then why do you even attempt to jump this horse? I'm sorry but IME you can't skip steps. Do your homework and you may have a chance.

 

[KatB]

Thats quite interesting re. the getting tenser. Have you tried flexing him slightly around the course, and using the corners to slightly move him sideways and soften through the neck/back? You may find going to a few unaff events, and really taking time around the course to flex and yield him away from the leg inbetween fences to keep him engaged and supple, and if necessary circling and flexing him until he is soft, and then is allowed to continue around the course? May just break the cycle of jumping/tension?

 

[KatB]

If you can't get him adjustable on the flat, on contact and engaged with a solid half halt then why do you even attempt to jump this horse? I'm sorry but IME you can't skip steps. Do your homework and you may have a chance.

Thats a bit harsh. There are plenty of horses out there that are difficult on the flat but are excellent jumping horses. If he has been being placed around novice BE tracks, he isn't going to be wildly underschooled!

 

[charlie76]

Thanks KatB, I was just about to say that before the forum timed out! Although it would be lovely to have perfection in all cases sadly this isn't always the case. This horse came to us unable to maintain any pace in a circle, he would fall up the wall in canter. He would not work in any form of a contact and spent half his life rearing, napping and refusing to move. We have worked through this and got him to BE novice level with sucess, he has only once had a fault XC due to loosing a shoe and slipping and has been placed nearly every time out both dressage and BE so we can't be doing too much wrong. He just struggles to keep the canter without tensing.
At a show he does not rear so we can work him better away from home. However at home he is one of the most sensitive and tricky horses we have ever had.

 

[Ella Bella]

Not at all trying to sound harsh. I'm thinking only of the horse, when a horse seems to dislike his job or is nervous/tense it's only fair to go back a step and rectify the problem. Not to mention that a horse that struggles to keep rails up at that height (and it's not because he wasn't impressed) shouldn't be moving up but rather going back to the training scale.
Also, just because other trainers over face or skip steps doesn't make it the right thing to do. Yes I know horses that are finicky or difficult to ride on the flat that jump successfully however these horses are rideable and educated just opinionated and require a specific ride. The op is describing a horse that "does not allow you to ride him" and is taken to rearing. Big difference.

 

[Horsemad12]

You mention that if he gets deep he has it down and that his canter is tense. He also fights the hand on the vid.
I would suspect ( I had a mare like this) that you may tend to be holding him off the fence to try and help him ( I did this).
My instructor wanted me to work on getting her deep and working it out for herself rather than looking after her, I would think that if you can practice riding forward to a deep stride where he then backs himself off a little and sits on his hocks it may help. Trust me when it happens right you will really feel it, but it can be hard to do, I was made to fix my hands on the neck so there were no little checks!!!! A placing pole may help with this.

Start at a height in your comfort zone and work up. Doing this off a 20m circle may also help with the softness.

Looks like he has already come along way from where you started,

good luck

 

[charlie76]

I won't mention who our trainer but honestly, we couldn't get any better but he has always been like it, from day one. We have tried to re school him and stop the temper/rearing but its how he is and we have to work with it. If we keep stepping back everytime he throws a tantrum he would be back on long reins being backed and he still would throw a strop! I understand what you are saying but we need to work with what we have.
he can make a decent shape when he choses:

But he gives everything too much height- these fences are BE100 and look about 2ft high!

 

[charlie76]

I have said to him to have the canter more forward to the fence so that he is covering a bit more ground but then you get advised from some one else that you need to slow him right down, this results in the hollowing and then he drops behind the leg.

 

[stencilface]

TBH, if the horse has experience, I'm not sure how much you can improve their technique? If thats the way they find it best to jump, they will jump that way imho. If its a baby baby horse then you can influence their technique more I think, but if he's already pretty established then I don't think it will make much difference.

I think grids and exercises are good, and can certainly improve the technique whilst you are doing that exercise, but on a course they will revert to their most comfortable/easy/reliable technique. The horse I have in my head right now is Opp Buzz, and I think his jumping style, bascule technique wise is pretty much rubbish! However, I don't think many would suggest that the horse hadn't had training and anything else to improve that, thats just the way he does it

If the horse goes clear (which he looks like he does if he gives them them much air) then I wouldn't worry tbh, going clear is the name of the game in BE/SJ not looking pretty pretty.

(Although he does look pretty in your pics above )

 

[Ella Bella]

I have said to him to have the canter more forward to the fence so that he is covering a bit more ground but then you get advised from some one else that you need to slow him right down, this results in the hollowing and then he drops behind the leg.

You need engagement, covering ground has no bearing whatsoever on engagement. You open him up he will be more strungout and the jump will be even flatter. Collect him, don't just hold him of pull him up (use LEG do not allow him to suck back behind it) and you have a far better chance at a round and athletic effort. Basics.

 

[charlie76]

He doesn't jump flat though, He jumps to high and this causes him to hollow.If he is wrong he jumps up and down rather than up and across his fence so surely we need him to open his frame over the fence?

 

[charlie76]

Dressage scores are between 26 and 32 BE scores and between 65% and 75% when just doing dressage usually so actually his flatwork is good-he just won't transfer it to the jumping.

 

[kit279]

If you can't get him adjustable on the flat, on contact and engaged with a solid half halt then why do you even attempt to jump this horse? I'm sorry but IME you can't skip steps. Do your homework and you may have a chance.

Hmmm. That came across as unbelievably patronising!

 

[LEC]

As per usual you never know who is writing this stuff on the forum and sometimes advice needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Just out of interest what does the physio say? Have his hocks been x rayed before? He looks a careful horse and like he enjoys the job so just wondering if everything has been looked at just to rule out. I know a lot of people go blah blah blah about physical when the horse is being naughty but I have a horse who is fine at PN but at novice he was really found out with the weaknesses in his canter due to hocks. I saw one yesterday who had identical symptoms to my horse and was a weak sjer due to difficulties in the canter.

 

[Ella Bella]

Hmmm. That came across as unbelievably patronising!

That's not my intention. I don't see it as patronizing however, if you want to optimize your chances at actually improving the quality and skill of a jump you need to take the necessary steps. Riding more forward or setting bigger or more challenging fences is not likely going to do it. It's only my opinion based on my experience, it's certainly not gospel.

 

[Ella Bella]

Charlie, I'm not sure I'm clear on the terminology. How is a hollow jump not a flat jump?

 

[seabsicuit2]

The rider is sitting too heavy in the saddle with his legs rammed on hard throughout the course of jumps.He is almost in a bit of a driving position. Which is why the canter is tense& therefore he is unable to find a consistent take off point & then he hollows. The canter quality and energy is not quite right either.

If the rider could adopt a much lighter seat and hands that would help the horse to canter round with a softer back and help the canter rhythm.. he could try keeping the bottom out of the saddle slightly and being a touch more forward with his upper body with the leg more softly around the horse; and also slightly further back. So that he is not so much behind the movement in a driving position. This would release the horse's back so that he gains a better canter rhythm.

Richard Waygood is the guy that taught me this method; and believe me it really works!! As you are in the south east i would def recommend going to have a few lessons with him..