Getting cold feet about bitting.

scats

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 September 2007
Messages
10,436
Location
Wherever it is I’ll be limping
Visit site
If you’ve ever seen a naughty pony launch it’s head down to a pile of grass out hacking and merrily chomping away while it’s hapless rider sits aboard desperately trying to get its head back up, you’ll see that they have absolutely no issues at all with swallowing with a bit in!

Horses mouths are a completely different design to ours, so trying to imagine what you would feel like with a bit in is not a useful comparison.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,384
Location
Northampton
Visit site
When you are reading you need to be aware of the sources you are reading from. The ain't bit brigade are mental! I have seen some utterly ludicrous things. Almost everything is manipulative and designed to make you feel bad. Thats whats causing you the upset. Stop reading it. Get a bit fit consultant out and absolutely drill them on bits and bitting. Get them to explain it all to you properly using the science behind it.

Theres a shire on my yard. Hes enormous! He lowers his head and opens his mouth for his bit. Not something he would do if he couldn't swallow.
 

Kaylum

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 May 2010
Messages
5,317
Visit site
Have done a bit fit course as I have a tack business and think it is important that people selling tack are qualified. It is very intensive and includes lots about the bridle and how it fits as it is the whole package.

Browbands and nosebands all contribute to how the horse feels. So yes agree get someone out to look.
 

MissTyc

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 June 2010
Messages
3,601
Location
South East
Visit site
Teach the skills, use the tools.
I hack bitless and sometimes even jump or XC on my cob because he is basically the perfect horse and so responsive, but all my horses are bitted during the bringing on process and are taught baucher flexions before I ever get on or take up a bit contact. I would be devastated if anyof my horses showed aversion to the bit and it turned out it was because my use of it was inflicting pain.
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
Just to go against the grain, I think I understand where you are coming from @cblover

I think it's a side effect of continuing to educate yourself that you question practices that have previously been accepted as the norm. Personally I find it very easy to fall down the rabbit hole of ethics when considering what we do to horses for our own needs.

Some people appear to take it as a personal insult if you question anything and consider a different option. Do you remember the days of the "barefoot taliban" on here?

There was a lot of drama and decrying of barefoot yet now look, posters are quick to offer BF as an option and share personal experiences. Less than ten years ago to post anything like that meant suiting up in something flame retardant and ducking for cover. I do think that similar will happen with bitless; already there are more options on the market to purchase and attempts to increase competitive options.

Yes horse's mouths are shaped differently from ours but it is still a mouth. The horse wasn't designed to take a bit, we just found a space and filled it! The bars of the mouth are sensitive and it is still soft tissue over bone.

We are learning more about mouth & tongue conformation. Now we consider tongue thickness and if the horse has a high or low palate for example.

There was a time when a lozenge bit was considered the "kinder" option but now there seems to be a switch back to the single joint. People experiment and find out what works best for them and their horses (hopefully).

There are lots of options for Bitless from a halter, bosal, sidepull, cross under, orbital, rope/rawhide hackamore and then the more known hackamore bit options.

I think as riders there is a fair bit of cognitive dissonance with a lot that we consider the norm. It's no bad thing to question everything and be open to changing your mind.

If you currently don't feel comfortable riding bitted then you don't have to. You may find that further down the line that you do want to bit and that's ok too.

Its perfectly possible to school and train a horse bitless just as you can bitted. Some people do both and swap between the two to identify any differences and work through their findings.

Finally getting to my point, if you don't want to bit then don't. Perfectly possible to train a horse without a bit. Starting Bitless doesn't mean that you are stuck being Bitless forever.

TPO- ridden Bitless and bitted with no prejudice.
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
I would get the horse used to a bit and then ride her in whatever she prefers. I went through a brief phase of bitless on my horse, just to see, and it didn't make her into Valegro. It didn't make her happy, either, as she took offense at even the lightest contact with the pressure points on her face. Bitless isn't inherently fuzzy wuzzy and gentle whereas bits are not. She was a lot happier with the snaffle. She even prefers the double bridle over bitless.
 
Last edited:

palo1

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2012
Messages
6,256
Visit site
I suppose I’m concerned about pain, being able to swallow with a bit in etc. I’ve been intrigued by bitless for a while now but also need to be safe and have a big young horse.

There is some interesting up to date research demonstrating the different pressures that bitted and bitless bridles place on a horse in physical terms. It doesn't matter whether you go bitted or bitless there is potential for pain, discomfort; it is ALL about how you use a bridle tbh and how you teach the horse to listen to it. If you go carefully and gently you won't cause your mare any difficulties. :)
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,538
Visit site
If you want to be nice to your horse and set him up for the future (given we cannot guarantee they wouldn’t have to move on if something happened), get him bitted according to his mouth shape, mouthed and riding.
it's the future-proofing that would lead me to teach a horse about accepting the bit, even if i planned to ride it bitless from then on. I do agree with TPO's post, and I accept I come at things from a discipline that mandates riding with a bit (or 2) but the way i look at it some day my horses may need to find a new home because something terrible has happened and I'd like them to be as versatile and educated as possible in that event.
 
Joined
20 February 2017
Messages
3,724
Visit site
At the risk of sounding rude, what is to stop you getting her used to both bitted and bitless? Means the horse is more versatile if you want to sell but if you still feel uncomfortable further down the road you don't have to use a bit if you don't want to.
Obviously it would have to be done carefully to avoid confusing the horse, but that's an option surely?
I do think it is important from a safety point of view too; you have so much more control bitted than bitless if a horse gets upset for any reason.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,022
Visit site
You are overthinking , everything we do with horse is open to abuse .
There’s nothing inherently less intrusive about bit less bridles the potential for discomfort is enormous.
Horses can breath drink swallow and eat perfectly easy in a bit .
 
Joined
20 February 2017
Messages
3,724
Visit site

*immediately regrets saying that*

I suppose it would depend on the type of bitless bridle being used. I used a sidepull, though, which is basically a headcollar in action...although I didn't have a lack of control, else I wouldn't have used it.

But then, if OP is concerned about bit severity, cross-unders and hackamores can be quite harsh even though you would probably (thinking about how many nerves there are in a horse's face) have the same amount of control as a bit. Different sorts of signals though and I don't know enough about it to explain so I'm going to shut up lol.



*exits feeling like an idiot*
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
*immediately regrets saying that*

I suppose it would depend on the type of bitless bridle being used. I used a sidepull, though, which is basically a headcollar in action...although I didn't have a lack of control, else I wouldn't have used it.

But then, if OP is concerned about bit severity, cross-unders and hackamores can be quite harsh even though you would probably (thinking about how many nerves there are in a horse's face) have the same amount of control as a bit. Different sorts of signals though and I don't know enough about it to explain so I'm going to shut up lol.



*exits feeling like an idiot*

Sorry Chincilla, that wasnt my intention at all.

I was just questioning why there is this idea that bitted = more control. It does appear to be held by the majority and that same majority have rarely ridden a trained Bitless horse.

IMO training = control. A 16mm diameter bar of metal isnt going to stop 500kg+ that really wants to go.

The most responsive horse that I've ever ridden was in a rope halter, he was so well trained. I've ridden and seen ridden plenty of horses that are ignorant to the bit through lack of good training.

I do think Bitless will circle around like barefoot. The people who think that the hoof will wear away to a nub or fall off without shoes are the minority these days. As Bitless continues to gain popularity as an option I think opinions will sway when horses are seen out doing what bitted horses do (if competitive associations will hurry up and allow it).
 

Boulty

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 April 2011
Messages
2,062
Visit site
I would say that if there's a chance you may be selling this horse in the future then yes I would introduce a bit as you'll have a much wider audience to sell to. Also if you've tried both ways then you will know which the horse seems to prefer & goes best in. (If you're unlikely to ever need to sell then it is totally your preference & if you prefer bit less & the horse is going well then nothing wrong with sticking with that either)

If you both get on well with the current setup there's no reason you can't carry on using that most of the time if it's what you both prefer even if you do introduce a bit. As a bit less setup I'm of the opinion the transcend is one of the nicer ones offering most refinement if used with double reins (not saying I'm good enough to do that, just that it's perfectly possible to school a horse nicely in it if you wanted to)
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO
Joined
20 February 2017
Messages
3,724
Visit site
Sorry Chincilla, that wasnt my intention at all.

I was just questioning why there is this idea that bitted = more control. It does appear to be held by the majority and that same majority have rarely ridden a trained Bitless horse.

IMO training = control. A 16mm diameter bar of metal isnt going to stop 500kg+ that really wants to go.

The most responsive horse that I've ever ridden was in a rope halter, he was so well trained. I've ridden and seen ridden plenty of horses that are ignorant to the bit through lack of good training.

I do think Bitless will circle around like barefoot. The people who think that the hoof will wear away to a nub or fall off without shoes are the minority these days. As Bitless continues to gain popularity as an option I think opinions will sway when horses are seen out doing what bitted horses do (if competitive associations will hurry up and allow it).

Sorry, I should think things through before I post more; I do think you are absolutely right about training though. :)
 

Red-1

I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Joined
7 February 2013
Messages
17,814
Location
Outstanding in my field!
Visit site
I think you are over thinking it.

I would bot the horse. Apart from anything else, if Scrappy ever was an in patient at the vets, if they had to walk out in hand they would likely stick a bit in to do so. They may have been told that she has not had one before, but in the busyness of such a situation, they would forget. Similarly, at a livery yard, it only takes a new owner to come with a boyfriend to go catch a horse and get the wrong one or something. I would always train my horse to accept what people naturally expect horses to accept.

After she is bitted, then I expect the only person to worry about what is used would be you.

I don't think the Transcend is particularly strong. Is this the bridle Scrappy had on when she took fright at a tractor, canoe-ed into you, set off, and sent your horse up a bank, with a professional on board? I'm not saying this wouldn't have happened with a bit in, but with a big strong horse it would certainly make me think that maybe I should explore all options.
 

Roasted Chestnuts

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2008
Messages
7,940
Location
Scotland
Visit site
However you prefer to ride your horse is up to you however crap happens and not everyone will be bitless riders so bitting would make more sense on the event of the inevitable.

Thats why I’m doing everything in my power to give the wee guy the best start in life as I can. Won’t be the first time I’ve had to sell horses as the worst has happened. Would prefer to give my horses the best chance possible to get the best home.

I agree with TPO to an extent however the vast majority of equestrians bit and if she had to go up for sale many people wouldn’t pay as much for a horse they would have to retrain to a bit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO

Hanw1

Active Member
Joined
7 May 2020
Messages
42
Visit site
My boy got bitted over winter. He’s two now and happily opening his mouth for the bit. He hasn’t had any pressure put on it yet, I have him wearing the bridle but he has a rope headcollar over the top that I’m doing the training from. I will start introducing pressure on it next year unless he requires it.

This is our set up

View attachment 49126
Ahhhh this is lovely to see! I’m just about to start bitting my youngster .... he’s never had a bit in before .... can you share how you introduce the bit please? X
 

Taliesan

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 March 2014
Messages
210
Location
Hinckley
Visit site
I am going to be saying similar things to @TPO here. I will add that I agree with everything they have said and much of it was along the lines of what I was going to type myself when I first read this thread in the morning.

The horse world is steeped in tradition and, just because something has always been done, doesn't mean that it should always be done. Research and science are bringing new things to light all the time - some of which we agree with and some of which we won't. Bitless versus bitted bridles is a good example of this and certainly brings people's cognitive dissonance to light! It is never comfortable or pleasant having your beliefs questioned, especially when they can be very strongly held.

The barefoot movement is a really good example of this. I remember when I was much younger and the stigma that surrounded not having shoes on your horse was unreal. Now not having your horse shod is far more normal and generally well accepted. I genuinely believe that bitless will be the same a few years down the line. More and more people are taking their horses bitless and I think that, slowly, opinions are changing.

At the end of the day, if a horse gets frightened and tanks off then you stand no better chance of stopping them in a bitted bridle over a bitless bridle.

What does stop horses is training. I have clicked trained my boy to stop on a certain vocal cue. I have managed to stop him mid-race with another horse across a field with this cue and I didn't need to pick up the reins. It has taken a lot of time and reinforcement to get this cue established and it didn't happen overnight. There is no quick fix for good training!

In my view, people will use bits as a quick fix for what are fundamentally training problems. For example, it is much easier to stick in a stronger bit than get to the root of why your hose isn't stopping and spend the time unpicking the issue. I totally get this, being on a horse that is not stopping is pretty terrifying. However, the way I do things is to make sure we never get into that sort of position in the first place - but then I am happy to give things the time they need. It took me between two and three years to teach my horse that stop cue I mentioned above. Even now it is only about 95% of the way there as there is always going to be that one situation where his actions are worth more to him than what I can offer him for stopping.

I digress though. In addition to my older bitless boy (I've done pretty much everything with him bitless and, to the best of my knowledge, he was previously ridden in quite a strong bit before I got him) I do have a youngster who I will be backing bitless and in a Transcend.

Having read the research and come to my own conclusion I have decided to never put a bit in his mouth. I do believe that bits are inherently more aversive than bitless bridles, cause pain and can significantly affect a horse's ability to breathe effectively. I accept that this isn't the view held by the majority but it is the conclusion I have come to. (I will add that there can be some extremely strong bitless bridles out there, just like there are strong bits. I use the mildest form of bitless on my boys, just like many use the mildest bit on their horses.)

My youngster will never be sold so I don't need to worry about him having to cope in a different type of home. I am doing groundwork in the Transcend now and have had no issues with control as I have got well established vocal cues for left, right, walk, trot and stop. My youngster's stop cue is already much better established than my older boy's because I haven't had to unpick any issues for him.

At the end of the day though, Scrappy is your horse and you need to do what is right for you both. If you want to bit her, then fine. If you don't then that is also fine. Just because you go for one option now doesn't mean you can't swap to a different one later on down the line.

I will add as a final note that I believe that training is the most important thing for any horse and there is no real substitute for it - I think this is the case irrespective of if your horse is bitless or bitted. :)
 

Cortez

Tough but Fair
Joined
17 January 2009
Messages
15,148
Location
Ireland
Visit site
Whilst I agree with most of what you've written above, there are one or two things that are not quite accurate. The relative "mildness" or otherwise of bits or bitless set ups is largely due to whoever is on the other end of the reins, and what a lot of people perceive as mild or kind ain't necessarily so. Take the popular knotted rope halter adopted as a sort of badge of non-traditionalism by so many natural horsemanship devotees and others looking to be nice to their horses. The thin rope used, and the placing of the knots (over pressure points on the face - what the micklem bridle is all about relieving), actually make these potentially very severe and painful instruments. I have seen them abused, often subtly by the people promoting them, and I have had to cut one out of the head of a horse which was tied up and pulled back.

In the course of my work I have trained and ridden horses in many unusual ways; in full double bridles, one handed and neckreined in curbs, bitless, and indeed bridleless and at liberty, to voice, and all levels of in between (I work with stunt and display horses, as well as compete to FEI levels in dressage). Bits do not automatically hurt horses, and I believe that well trained horses should be able to be ridden happily in any rig - indeed in my business they have to be. People who are evangelical about bitless need to have a long, hard think about the future of their horses.
 

paddy555

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2010
Messages
12,538
Visit site
In defence of bitless I always try to have mine bitless if possible. I started doing this 45 years ago so I am not part of any anti bit crusade. The same horse was also my first barefoot horse. We got in there before the fad took over.

I did it with my first horse who had been knocked around and was totally unresponsive to the bit and wouldn't stop. Everyone told me to tie his head down, I think a gag was suggested. I went the opposite way and put reins on the headcollar. I knew absolutely nothing in those days. Lo and behold I had the perfect riding horse who stopped beautifully. I moved onto an English hackamore and then removed it graduated to a neck rope and nothing else. (It was much quieter riding around in those days). Since then the hackamore was my first choice and my 5 yo is still in the hackamore. He goes beautifully in it, is happy so I see no point in bitting him. It also suits very well for what I want to do. He stops instantly if needed and would do bitted or bitless because I put an "emergency stop" into him at a very young age. A bit like Taliesan mentioned above.

OP as you are obviously concerned have you considered the 4 reins approach. This is how I broke my Peruvians. Their approach was to ride bitless (in a bosal) and train the horse in that. After he was well trained a bit was put in and he carried the bit on rides but also had a bitless bridle on as well. In your case the transcend would be used for riding as normal and the horse carries the bit. Then when the horse is happy a set of reins are put onto the bit but you carry on riding in the transcend. The horse just carries the bit reins. Next stage is to ride in 4 reins, you take up the bit reins but use the transcend and then gradually move off the transcend reins to the bit reins. Although that sounds long and drawn out I found it worked well and then you have a horse that will go bitted or bitless. It may help you if you want to do things gradually so that you are happier.

Scrappy may be different being a larger horse and especially if you want to sell but I work on the basis of doing what the horse is happiest with, bit or bitless. They are all individuals.
 

Auslander

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2010
Messages
12,623
Location
Berkshire
Visit site
I
OP as you are obviously concerned have you considered the 4 reins approach. This is how I broke my Peruvians. Their approach was to ride bitless (in a bosal) and train the horse in that. After he was well trained a bit was put in and he carried the bit on rides but also had a bitless bridle on as well. In your case the transcend would be used for riding as normal and the horse carries the bit. Then when the horse is happy a set of reins are put onto the bit but you carry on riding in the transcend. The horse just carries the bit reins. Next stage is to ride in 4 reins, you take up the bit reins but use the transcend and then gradually move off the transcend reins to the bit reins. Although that sounds long and drawn out I found it worked well and then you have a horse that will go bitted or bitless. It may help you if you want to do things gradually so that you are happier.

Might be a bit tricky with the Transcend, as it already has two reins!
 

paddy555

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2010
Messages
12,538
Visit site
Might be a bit tricky with the Transcend, as it already has two reins!

didn't realise thanks for telling me. When I did this I was using a bosal. I am sure however that OP gets the general idea of how I moved the horse onto a bit.
 

dreamcometrue

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2006
Messages
4,911
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
My mare loves her bits. If I am holding her bridle she will follow me round the stable with her mouth open trying to get the bit in her mouth even before I am ready to put her bridle on! She especially loves the Bomber.
 

Taliesan

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 March 2014
Messages
210
Location
Hinckley
Visit site
Whilst I agree with most of what you've written above, there are one or two things that are not quite accurate. The relative "mildness" or otherwise of bits or bitless set ups is largely due to whoever is on the other end of the reins, and what a lot of people perceive as mild or kind ain't necessarily so. Take the popular knotted rope halter adopted as a sort of badge of non-traditionalism by so many natural horsemanship devotees and others looking to be nice to their horses. The thin rope used, and the placing of the knots (over pressure points on the face - what the micklem bridle is all about relieving), actually make these potentially very severe and painful instruments. I have seen them abused, often subtly by the people promoting them, and I have had to cut one out of the head of a horse which was tied up and pulled back.

In the course of my work I have trained and ridden horses in many unusual ways; in full double bridles, one handed and neckreined in curbs, bitless, and indeed bridleless and at liberty, to voice, and all levels of in between (I work with stunt and display horses, as well as compete to FEI levels in dressage). Bits do not automatically hurt horses, and I believe that well trained horses should be able to be ridden happily in any rig - indeed in my business they have to be. People who are evangelical about bitless need to have a long, hard think about the future of their horses.

I definitely agree with you on the rope halters - they can be incredibly harsh and I don't think many people realise that. The surface area of the rope in contact with the horse's face is very small and, as you rightly pointed out, those knots are designed to sit right on key nerve branches. A thoroughly unpleasant piece of kit in the wrong hands. A similar thing could probably be said for a single jointed snaffle - people assume it is the mildest type of bit but when you look into how it works then there are definitely milder ones out there.

In part I do also agree with you about the mildness of bits or bitless being reliant on who is at the other end. Someone with hard, tugging hands is going to be unpleasant no matter what kit the horse has on. However, in my view, someone with hands like that is going to do a lot less damage in a mild bitless bridle than they would in a mild bit. In addition to this a correctly fitted and used bitless bridle doesn't interfere with the horse's breathing system. A bit will pretty much always do this, irrespective of how soft the hands are on the other end of the reins, simply my virtue of it sitting in the mouth of the horse and breaking the lip seal.

I think that being evangelical about bitless and the future of horses kept this way is going to be less and less of an issue as time goes on. More people are starting to ride their horses bitless and it isn't the big deal that it used to be even a few years ago.
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
A few years ago, I saw a video on here of someone -- maybe JanetGeorge -- backing a youngster, and they had a sidepull and a snaffle on the horse. So four reins. She said she uses that set-up so the horse becomes accustomed to the bit, but if it does any silly young horse stuff, the rider can grab the sidepull, which isn't ideal of course, but probably less aversive than the rider grabbing the bit. I thought it was ingenious.
 

Cortez

Tough but Fair
Joined
17 January 2009
Messages
15,148
Location
Ireland
Visit site
I definitely agree with you on the rope halters - they can be incredibly harsh and I don't think many people realise that. The surface area of the rope in contact with the horse's face is very small and, as you rightly pointed out, those knots are designed to sit right on key nerve branches. A thoroughly unpleasant piece of kit in the wrong hands. A similar thing could probably be said for a single jointed snaffle - people assume it is the mildest type of bit but when you look into how it works then there are definitely milder ones out there.

In part I do also agree with you about the mildness of bits or bitless being reliant on who is at the other end. Someone with hard, tugging hands is going to be unpleasant no matter what kit the horse has on. However, in my view, someone with hands like that is going to do a lot less damage in a mild bitless bridle than they would in a mild bit. In addition to this a correctly fitted and used bitless bridle doesn't interfere with the horse's breathing system. A bit will pretty much always do this, irrespective of how soft the hands are on the other end of the reins, simply my virtue of it sitting in the mouth of the horse and breaking the lip seal.

I think that being evangelical about bitless and the future of horses kept this way is going to be less and less of an issue as time goes on. More people are starting to ride their horses bitless and it isn't the big deal that it used to be even a few years ago.
Eh? Lip seal? Horses breath through their nostrils - and any of the scawbridge /wraparound type bitless bridles will directly impact on the nose, unlike the bit which has nothing to do with a horses airway.
 
Top