Getting more "forwardness"

mainpower

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I apologise for the length of my post, but don't want to drip feed information! :eek:

I have a six year old that I have owned from 18 months. He's by an ID out of an untouched section D hill pony. He's quite a sensitive chap, and there is sometimes a fine line between keeping on top of "cheekiness" and scaring him!

He is a very late developer, and was extremely croup high (actually looked like a "cut and shut" until rising 5 and started to level out, but has remained very slightly croup high. Due to his slow maturing and regular (quite dramatic) growth spurts, I've found it hard to keep him working consistently, not helped by his regular shape changing mean he's had 7 saddles since he was 4!

He has his back and teeth checked twice a year, is living out at the moment, and the most he has ever been fed is ad-lib hay, straw chaff and hi-fibre nuts.

Anyway, to get to the point, lol! Over last winter, I got him out and about to local prelim dressage events, and he's been fairly consistent in his %s and placings, and was second overall in a points championship. Regular judges comments were, nice paces, will do a lovely test when matures, needs to gain confidence, develop a consistent rhythm and be steadier in his mouth.

In February he managed to get a tiny puncture in his off hind sole, develop an under-run abscess, then once he was sound stand on a stone right where the tiny puncture was and get a whacking great hole in his sole. Then when he came sound he bruised his other hind foot. In total he was lame for around 9 weeks.

So I brought him back into work, light hacking, lunging, long reining and some gentle schooling. But after his break he just does not want to go forward in the school. (He isn't ridden in there much, maybe 20/30 minutes twice a week). I often give him a 10 minute lunge before I get on, just to relax him and warm him up a bit. He has a good walk, a good rhythmic canter (although he won't hold it for long), but he's not forwards in trot. If I push him he has a "Welsh tantrum", ears pinned back, humping and tail swishing, and if I use the stick on him he bucks. (Big bucks, but luckily in a straight line lol).

My farrier checked his feet and says there's no problem. My backman came out last Friday, and said he was sore and had tension over his back, and this was probably a result of having been lame for so long he'd been moving awkwardly which had put strain on him. He had a new saddle fitted to him when he came sound. The EDT is coming next week, although I don't feel he has any mouth issues.

I hacked him Saturday and Sunday no problems, lunged him on Monday morning, then had an impacted wisdom tooth out on Monday afternoon. I had an infected jaw and just felt so rough (plus (TMI) tummy trouble from the anti-biotics and painkillers lol) that I didn't ride again until last night, when my instructor came along to give us a very easy lesson.

He was awful!! He walked with his head up, he would trot about three relaxed strides before he stuck his head up so high I could see his star, and put the breaks on. The saving grace was his canter, he got the correct strike off every time (he has had problems with the left lead before) and cantered nicely, but as soon as we went back to trot the brakes went on.

The only way we could get a decent trot was by putting some poles down so he lowered his head and went forward, but as soon as he was over the pole he stopped going forward.

My instructor doesn't feel he's in pain, but maybe he was in discomfort before and having had a few days off he hasn't had time to work out he's ok now. She also thinks that though his training is at maybe a 4/5 yo old stage, he's old enough to be testing me, it's as though he will work for a few strides, and then it's "sod this, I'm bored, not doing it anymore". I have learned with other horses that you don't get anywhere arguing with Welshies, so I do lots of rein changes and transitions, but that's not going to help when we get back to competing!

I'm going to get Mr Backman back early next week to give him another check.

I know that it's early days since he's been lame, and hope that I don't come across as impatient, but I'm hoping that one of you clever talented competition riders out there can suggest some tips/checks/exercises to help me get him forwards again?

Thanks to anyone who has taken the tome to read this :) and chocolate/cakes/alcohol of your choice for anyone offering advice! :D
 

Twiglet

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I would say that if and when you rule out any pain, just give him a bit of time. He's had the disruption to his training which is likely to have an effect on any youngster, and he's going to take a while to find his fitness and his balance again. Make things fun and don't put the pressure on too much.
My slow growing 7 year old was - and still can be - a nightmare for forwardness, but he gets better the fitter and more confident he is. As a 5 year old it was a question of me getting off him utterly exhausted after every schooling session.
 

asommerville

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this is a good thread, ive had the same issues with my 6yo idx....its only now hes getting a bit fitter that hes more willing and vonfident!
 

Wheels

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I'd get the saddle checked again - possibly by someone different just to be on the safe side as unwillingness to go forward could be related to saddle fit
 

spacefaer

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I've seen similar symptoms when it was the saddle - trouble with slow maturing youngsters, particularly if they have had a change in work/fitness/grass levels.

As you say, you can't push the Welsh side of him - tbh, you can't push IDs either!

I would get his saddle fit checked (again! ) what sort of back man do you use? I have a mctimoney chiro who is brilliant at telling me if the horse is having saddle issues.

Other than that, if the back is fine and thw saddle is fine and the feet are fine..... try hacking him out for a couple of weeks instead - some babies just get bored of the school! Tbh, I've had both breeds, pure and cross bred, over the years and none of them have been fans of trotting in circles! They're too bright and don't see the point lol!


)
 

mainpower

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Thanks so very much to everyone who took the time to read my epic post.... :D :D

To answer some of the points raised (and to disguise a "bump")!
Yes he's willing on the lunge, but tends to lose rhythm and can't quite decide where he wants his head... this is the same with and without saddle. (I do often lunge for while before riding, not because he's explosive in anyway, just that I'd rather keep my big fat bottom off his back while he warms up, until he's a bit more developed).

It had occured to me to stop the school work, but thought that as he does so little would that make a difference? And it's literally a few strides before he starts doing rude Welsh sign language, it's not that I trot for even 5 minutes! But that is definitely something I'm going to do, ie hack for a couple of weeks.

I'll get a saddle check (he's got a very broad and flat back, but he's not a "leg stretcher", so finding a saddle to fit has always been awkward). Last year I had a saddle altered to fit, and inbetween the saddler measuring it up, and getting two weeks use out of it, he grew/got a bit of muscle and it pinched him. I hadn't noticed a problem but my backman picked it up straight away, some bruising corresponding with the points of the tree. So I am quite vigilant on saddle fit now, but don't know as much as an expert!

As to what sort of backman..."slight blush" :eek: I can't really say.. he's a fantastic old school horseman that I've used for a few years and trust implicitly. (I don't want to make another epic post but I had long term crookedness in my Welsh D/Tb, which vets and physios and instructors said was in my head. He was at my yard to treat a livery when I brought my other horse in, watched him walk across the yard, and said does your horse do abc/xyz.. he was spot on, gave him some magnetic pulse "thingy" treatment, and we've never looked back) He does some manipulation (my horses probably think its ABH..., stretching and uses the magnetic thing (I'm having senior memory loss and can't remember what it's called...)and gives really good feeding advice, tells me which herbs/plants to pick for them etc.

Sorry that this has got a bit long, hopefully I havn't rambled on too much...:eek: :D
 

MegaBeast

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Dare I say (having done all the appropriate checks, which it sounds like you have) you may need to employ some tough love tactics? It's very easy to fall into the trap of being too nice because a horse is young, by nature some horses will try to get away with the bare minimum and you do need to establish consistent rules/boundaries and not back off because they're young.
 

siennamum

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Your gelding sounds very much like mine in terms of development and type.

Mine was lazy and opinionated and really inconsistent.

he has just been diagnosed with an auto immune disease which is thankfully clearing up now. I simply will never assume that a horse is being 'naughty' again. Thankfully I was always a bit concerned about my boy and never really duffed him up or chased him, I'd feel terrible if I had.

Thought it worth mentioning as I had 5 vets look at mine over 2 years and it was vet 6 who correctly diagnosed.
 

mainpower

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Dare I say (having done all the appropriate checks, which it sounds like you have) you may need to employ some tough love tactics? It's very easy to fall into the trap of being too nice because a horse is young, by nature some horses will try to get away with the bare minimum and you do need to establish consistent rules/boundaries and not back off because they're young.

I did say to my instructor that in my younger and more "argumentative" days (when I was riding Tbs pre my Welshies lol) that by now the horse would probably have a couple of stripes for being a sod!! :eek:

Anyway, brief update. Last night I got side tracked by all the domestic stuff that keeps us away from the horses so by the time I got to the yard I only had 20 minutes to spare for a quick "better than nothing" ride. I chucked him in his stable with a scoop of chaff and some hay while I sorted out my liveries. When he was going well in the winter I either rode him in the morning, after breakfast, or at night after a small feed as I don't have much grass at the best of times. The only time pre his current problems that he has had a proper tantrum was when he was wormed, stayed in for 36 hours, and turned out on new grass, so in hindsight (and sorry that maybe this is dripfeeding but it's only after a couple of days thinking that this has clicked in my memory) so maybe he has a slightly acidic gut?

I also decided to put his jumping saddle on, I bought it as it was the only saddle I could find in my price range that fit him, not because I wanted a jumping saddle, and it was that or bareback! I used it from last autumn and through the winter when we were competing. It's a close contact, flat wide panelled GFS, but although it fits him I don't like the flattish seat on it, makes me feel insecure, which is why I went for a deep seated GP this year.

I also had clean boots on.... :D

So after 5ish minutes walking on a long rein (relaxed, long and low) we had a nice trans into trot, five strides and he banged the brakes on, a few pony club kicks, a flick with the whip, and he was flying along, and stayed forward for the next 15 minutes, cantering, trotting, pole work, ears pricked! Very untidy and no elegance, but FORWARD!!!

So, including the clean boots :p I changed three things.... was it one of these? Or had he had the extra 24 hours needed for his brain to click and whirr and decide he was feeling ok?

Time will tell, and thanks again to everyone who read and advised. :)
 

foxy1

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I would be strongly suspecting some tightness issues from him having been lame for 9 weeks. I'd have frequent physio/massage, be doing lots of stretches and riding out in straight lines under saddle.
 

Lyle

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I'd be leaning towards ulcers! If as you say he seems fine through the back, then I'd be getting him scoped for ulcers. It also may be a bit of a learned behavior now too, hence why he tried it on at first.
 

Lyle

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Also agree with above payer that he may be tight from being lame. This also however may have triggered ulcers due to stress and not being able to forage as effectively. Just putting it out there! :)
 

spacefaer

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"My first choice would be to get a thermal imaging scan done of him"

:O:O
1st choice? ?

I think I'd give him his chaff and stick to the saddle he was going well in over the winter as a FIRST choice

Thermal imaging would be quite a long way down the line of choices for me!
 

wench

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"My first choice would be to get a thermal imaging scan done of him"

:O:O
1st choice? ?

I think I'd give him his chaff and stick to the saddle he was going well in over the winter as a FIRST choice

Thermal imaging would be quite a long way down the line of choices for me!

Thermal imaging also very clearly shows weather a saddle fits or not, so two birds with one stone for about the sake of £100...
 

paddy

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Echo the above regarding saddle fit and tightness but one to add... You say he's still a little croup high. Is it possible he's struggling with balance as a result and is finding it difficult to go forwards as he can't get the front end out of the way to be able to do so? Once you've sorted out the saddle, perhaps focus less on forwards until you can lift the wither a bit more, slowing the pace right down and ask him to take more weight behind. Only then, with any horse but particularly one like this, will you be able to get real forwardness.

I had similar issues with my ID and went through a number of (respected) trainers who said to push him forwards - kick/ whip/ spur (not to the point of beating him, but 'make' him). Only with current trainer who told me to slow everything down and focus on shifting the balance back can we now, finally, get forwards, and then without tail swishing and ears back.
 

lyndsayberesford

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as an update to your query, i also fed a small bucket of chaff this weekend before riding and he had been eating haylege too, also did my girth not as tight as i would usually (got a breast girth for a bit more saddle security) and changed my spurs from plastic roller ball ones to just normal metal point ones and have to say there was a HUGE improvement.
Aware that this could just be that he felt "up for it" this weekend but was definitely different to before!

Hope you solve your problems too!
 

foxy1

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Paddy makes a good point- I find often with 'lazy' horses, less is more. Make all your aids like a whisper. If you kick and flap with this type they tend to shut down IME.
 
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