Getting through to a horse that's well, numb....

arwenplusone

arwenplusone

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long shot but just wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar to this before.

Got a little project mare at the moment 5/6 yr old. Nice little mare, unknown breeding (suspect a lot of blood). Scant history, but has been mistreated (not sure how or why) in the past. Was 'rescued' as a 3 yr old and broken in by lady I bought her from.

I suspect that because she was a rescued horse she has been allowed to get away with quite a lot, result being a horse that throws tantrums, big ones.

She is VERY mareish to touch, tack up & generally be around. advice I was given by previous owner was to 'ignore' it. I do not ignore it, I smack her on the nose every time she comes at me. This results in licking & chewing from her, and has helped her general behaviour.

She bucks (a lot) and give her an inch of kindness she will be all over you, taking advantage. Having said that, she has started to do some nice work in the school & does KNOW how to work through, BUT (and this is the main problem I have) every so often she will just say 'NO' to something. It often happens over poles or jumps. She will refuse, so obviously, she gets a smack and/or rein back. When she is smacked she does one of two things. She either kicks out in anger or broncs in anger, she does not go forward. So there have been times where it has taken me an hour or more to get her over one pole on the floor. Stubborn does not even begin to describe it.

When she has had these tantrums/says no, I have tried the following
Ruling out pain (vet/dentist/saddler)
being 'nice' to her, coaxing her forward
being nasty to her - I have used voice, legs (serious pony club legs) whip etc
I have used someone on the ground (with voice/whip etc)
I have tried sending her forward round the school until she is tired & then asking again.

What works EVENTUALLY is the nasty approach - I mean I just have to get after her & make her life uncomfortable until she gives in. But she almost seems to enjoy this

I have never 'lost' a fight with her, but I have had her for a little while now & I would have expected these tantrums to calm down by now. (especially since I make darn sure she can't get away with it).

She is not scared of anything. She is not in pain. She certainly has no respect for me (or anyone). She is an utter baggage.

But I BELIEVE there is a nice mare under there, really I do. She's a cracking jumper, and careful too - I just want to find out how to unlock her and get her working with me.

Anyone got any ideas?
 
There is no easy way it will all click with her one day! Im on my second nut job mare, the first one is a real pet now. The second one has come a huge way but she is still blocking me. I usually revert back to join up, to reinforce the herd ethos and that i'm the dominant one, it really does work! It's a firm and kind way to show her who's boss!
 
From experience with a young (and rather opinionated at times) mare, I would suggest defusing the situation by doing something else for a few minutes, then returning to the original question.

Starting a fight that you're unlikely to win without resorting to shouting/smacking, etc, is pointless. You don't need to give in to her - while you're doing something else insist on, for example, good transitions, straightness, accuracy, so she regains her focus, then go back and ask again with no stress or urgency.

She'll soon learn that tantrums don't work!
 
MincePie said:
My mare is a typical cheeky Welshy (ginger to boot :rolleyes:), I find that completely ignoring her works a treat when she's under saddle.
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tried this - but i'll be there for hours if I continue (and I mean HOURS)
Is pretty hard to ignore a horse's behaviour when she is saying NO to everything you are asking her to do. (though I agre with a spooky/naughty horse this is a good tactic)

Sadly I don't have that much time. Or patience!
 
meardsall_millie said:
From experience with a young (and rather opinionated at times) mare, I would suggest defusing the situation by doing something else for a few minutes, then returning to the original question.

Starting a fight that you're unlikely to win without resorting to shouting/smacking, etc, is pointless. You don't need to give in to her - while you're doing something else insist on, for example, good transitions, straightness, accuracy, so she regains her focus, then go back and ask again with no stress or urgency.

She'll soon learn that tantrums don't work!
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Good thinking. Though she is a clever beast & this seems not to faze her - she'll still say no. I guess I need to find what it is that she's saying no to (if you see what I mean) because at the moment there is no rhyme or reason. So frustrating!
 
I actually cannot believe I am advocating this but think she sounds like a mare who has no idea where she stands in the pecking chain having been treated badly and then totally pandered to and ground work would really help. A really good book is the fearless horse which though not totally suitable is worth a flick as its all about getting control over horses in a non confrontational way.
 
arwenplusone said:
Though she is a clever beast & this seems not to faze her - she'll still say no.
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I'm guessing though, that's because she knows that throwing a tantrum will spark a reaction. It's by no means a quick fix but I've found it to be quicker than trying to battle through everything.

If she's that clever, keep her mind constantly occupied so she doesn't have time to think up her next party piece, and remember the old saying, it's not about winning each battle but winning the war! ;)
 
Think you are on to something there LEC - I actually think she is trying VERY hard to be alpha mare, but actually she doesn't really WANT to be & this is quite stressful.

Is just bl00dy difficult trying to get her to respect me as the leader.
I don't really do join up or any of that malarkey but I do use good groundwork as a basis, so maybe I need to go back to that.

Will check out the book, thx.
 
Some mares have a habit of 'switching off' and no matter how pony clubby kicky you are, nothing will make them snap out of it - it happens at their speed alone! If its a pole on the ground that triggers it, create a maze of poles, so whichever way she turns, she is presented with a pole. If the first pole is a no no, then turn her around or turn her left or right and keep her guessing. If her feet are moving she is a good girl. If she is turned sharp, (cheek piece snaffle is what I find best too at these times) she may find it much harder to say no. The good ones are often the tricky ones, and it sounds like she needs to be kept VERY busy! A good whack is oh so tempting, but I have found in a few, that thats a tigger of 'away with the fairies' moments! (saying that, at the worst times, I have got the whip upside down and given a very quick one-two either side on the bum. Has shocked them so much they moved forwards!!)
As she is still so young, I feel that she needs to have fun, which Iam sure you are doing too. Walk, trot and canter on a lose rien, take your weight out of the saddle and have a 'hool about!'
Have you taken her XC schooling? Thats often helped with some stale yet sharp mares I've had before.
 
Poor you - I once had one like that - you had to bully her to get it to do anything but once she had given in then she never repeated the same resistance but would try it on a new subject. When learning to lunge she would come at you with teeth and feet, had to get help to get her lunging. Once she had been squared up she was the best to lunge was even used to teach Pony Club kids to lunge. Getting her on the truck - first couple of times brillient - then the fight, blind folded and lunge whip eventually on she went. After that she would load herself. She drove me insane but was one of the best horses I've ever had. Jumped like a stag totally bold except for water! Madam was in the river when I went to catch her eating watercress, so I had to paddle out to get her. Put on her roller and bridle and went to take her on a long rein walk - would she go through the ford - same river on the other side of her fence and only a couple of inches deep to a lovely gravel bottom.

I'd never had a horse like it in the past and have never had one like it again since.

A good chiro would be a good idea to look her over.
 
meardsall_millie said:
From experience with a young (and rather opinionated at times) mare, I would suggest defusing the situation by doing something else for a few minutes, then returning to the original question.

Starting a fight that you're unlikely to win without resorting to shouting/smacking, etc, is pointless. You don't need to give in to her - while you're doing something else insist on, for example, good transitions, straightness, accuracy, so she regains her focus, then go back and ask again with no stress or urgency.

She'll soon learn that tantrums don't work!
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^^^ this is exactly what I was going to say^^^
Its almost like thinking in front of them to avoid the confrontation, eventually they forget about the tantrums.
There are loads of people that believe they need to have it out with horses like this, but IMO every time they have a tantrum or strop you are reinforcing the bad behaviour.
 
LEC said:
I actually cannot believe I am advocating this but think she sounds like a mare who has no idea where she stands in the pecking chain having been treated badly and then totally pandered to and ground work would really help. A really good book is the fearless horse which though not totally suitable is worth a flick as its all about getting control over horses in a non confrontational way.
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Interesting point LEC, that is something we bore in mind with my mare, and it definitely helped our reaction to her behaviour.
 
if its a planting and then bucking when you smack her issue i think i would try the following:
- say she won't go over a pole i would get her to in front of the pole- if she'll stand quietly looking at the pole then i'd just sit there (for hours if necessary- have a phone with you for your own entertainment or someone to talk to)- every few minutes ask quietly for her to walk forwards. if she remains planted then just remain sat there. if she starts backing up/spinning etc then really pony club kick and pull her round (quite roughly) til you get her back to original position. this works on the idea that if she's being good or at least considering being good you are nice, if she's horrid you are horrid.

i can honestly say that this has worked for horses i've ridden. my grey horse was leathered when he did things wrong (he used to plant and then buck/rear when you smacked him) - because people told me to- and yes the problem got better but he'd still try it on at comps because he knew that i couldn't beat him up properly there :rolleyes: (bet i get lynched now for admitting i'm a pony basher :p )- so you need to find a way through. i'd try the above and some groundwork with her- its a dominance issue :):) good luck
 
Wow!!! Much of that is sooo similar to my madam so very interested in replies (or pms if people don't mind). However mine is a poppet on the ground and is very Jekyll and Hyde (when she is good she is very very good but when she is bad she is the exact description of above especially wrt respecting the pilot and leg!)

However - she was fabulous as a 3/4 yr old and the problems only really started when she hit 5 (2009) with being a general sod when it came to cantering or working in anything resembling an outline (the latter of which to be fair hadn't really been asked of before) by this autumn she had got to the point where any leg was simply met with resistence and using a stick was just asking for a fight or ignored depending on mood!! Whats more she started to nap when jumping which previously was the one thing guaranteed to get her listening and willingly going forward. Instructor suggested we try Regumate just to rule out hormones and if it didn't then we knew what the problem was.... HUGE DIFFERENCE!! Within 48 hours I had a horse who was much happier about being ridden and gave me a much more positive reaction to the leg and stick (albeit still a work in progress but we are now getting somewhere!) She missed 4 days in Dec as it froze(!) and low and behold the monster was back - 24hours of double dosing and she was almost back to her sane self.

The problem we now have is that she has learned certain unwanted behaviours and seems to have lost a lot of confidence (and yes I entirely blame myself for this and am beating myself up accordingly) so at times I have a very stubborn horse back - I just remind myself it IS an improvement but within that am always looking for any extra tools to equip myself with.
 
Thanks guys - there's a couple of things in here that I can look at trying, all good tools to add to my armoury!

I have had her on regumate - bog all difference so pretty sure it is behavioural rather than hormonal. shame.

Maybe she'll grow out of it, but I certainly think that keeping her moving is the way forward.
Cheers :)
 
was going to suggest regumate until i saw that you had tried it......

I had one similar - an racer who at three used to say 'NO' halfway down the gallops and so she soon became an ex racer (I found this behaviour out after the sale - at the time I was told she was just 'slow as s**t')

She was VERY alpha mare and regumate did help but it didnt solve everything. She reared and so the spinning trick worked very nicely until she one day tried to take a chunk out my leg whilst doing it.

Things however did progress well with LOTS of hard work and we had her getting 75% in dressage etc however she could never be completely relied on especially not for jumping - of which she showed masses of talent.

After three years of hard work the decision was taken away from me as she did a suspensory ligament ad she is now a broodmare in wales. Apparently being up the duff has completely transformed her into a soppy happy thing. It was heartbreaking at the time as I tried so bloody hard with that horse but ultimately I know look back and know that she was never really going to be my next eventer......

So, no methods etc as such to try. Good luck by all means and i truley hope you do get to the bottom of it but dont lose sight of the fact that some horses personalitys and enjoyment of being ridden wont change. I wasted three years of blood sweat and tears because I was so determined that I would win. In reality whats happened is I've wasted valuable time which could have been spent having fun with something that wants to please :-(
 
This sounds like my mare., & she is full of blood! Shes been through phases before she would bronc for england, had me off once, there she learnt what she could do to get me off her, then had one massive fight, with my instructor on her, she stayed on, this has then stopped this behaviour, she will still have her moments, only if somehting makes her jump mind.

She never refuses jumping etc, so cant comment, but flatwork, she has the potential to do very well, however getting her to the point is hard!!! like yours, mine loves it when shes working correctly & loves to show off, its almost like she cant be bothered & shes got away with it the past 3 years at her old yard!. The tactics i use is to do so much in the arena, movements etc, she cant think or anything else, then put a bit more pressure on, & when shes good, lots of breaks :)
 
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