Ginny Concerns (again/still/whichever...)

[Ambers Echo]

Ginny has been back from Leahurst for about a week. They want her out moving around 24/7 and 10 minutes a day ridden in walk in straight lines for next 3 months.(They want to encourage bone turnover.) She had multiple injections while there and has become extremely needle shy. Which she was not at all before. I have never had problems with her vaccinations, pre movement strangles tests, sedation for scoping and dentist etc. She's never reacted at all. But now it's so bad they had to catheterise her while she was there so she could have sedation through that.

Also she is right back to square 1 with biting/defensive behaviour. (When we got her she was EXTREMELY defensive but we worked through all that over about 4-6 months and she became gentle and trusting). And she is becoming tricky to catch. She has bonded intensely with Amber and neighs incessantly when I take Amber away. She just seems traumatised and spending time with her/ bringing her in for a groom/feed and to do the rehab just seems to agitate her.

But I wonder if turning her away and leaving her more or less alone would just make it worse? She needs to learn that we won't hurt her. Turning her away would avoid the issue rather than teaching her that she is ok. But it feels like we have been through all this before and she is even worse if anything than when she first arrived. It's as if she trusted us and now we have let her down and she's saying "well trusting you was a mistake. I won't do that again". It's breaking my heart. Or maybe I am over-thinking this and should have faith that she settled with us before and will again.

Any advice?

 

[redapple]

I'm sorry you're feeling and having a bit of a rough time with her return. She sounds very unsettled and has had a bit of a regression. As you've only had her back a week i'd say do consistent work but only for short times, build up to doing what worked before to get her into a happy and confident place. It's a lot of change and she's obviously not been having the best time with having lots of injections and treatments. I wouldn't overly humanise her response however, it wont help either of you to feel that way and I also don't believe horse's think like us. So 100% have faith thats she's settled before and will again!

 

[Fools Motto]

Mares are sensitive.
It is early days so I wouldn't overly stress about it. (I know that can be hard!)
Can you use Amber to your advantage? Use Amber to help catch her, bring them in together, feed together, fuss Amber and don't overly fuss Ginny, then turn them out together. I suspect as the weather turns more wintery, Ginny might just turn a corner, give it more time. As for the rehab, I think you should weigh up the pro's and cons of 10min walks v's the mares sanity! It will be fine.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Mares are sensitive.
It is early days so I wouldn't overly stress about it. (I know that can be hard!)
Can you use Amber to your advantage? Use Amber to help catch her, bring them in together, feed together, fuss Amber and don't overly fuss Ginny, then turn them out together. I suspect as the weather turns more wintery, Ginny might just turn a corner, give it more time. As for the rehab, I think you should weigh up the pro's and cons of 10min walks v's the mares sanity! It will be fine.

I agree with every word of this! Don't try to separate her form Amber for now, let her build up her confidence that no-one is going to stick a needle in her, or do anything else unpleasant. If you really need to ride her, can someone ride/lead Amber alongside, or could you ride Amber and lead Ginny from her? There are loads of ways round that part of the problem. I wouldn't turn her away though.

Just to reassure you about the injection problem; my enormous draft mare, with Cushings, was absolutely fine about injections until I allowed a student to inject her (under supervision) one day and then the vet took a blood sample. She decided that she wasn't going to put up with that again.
Until a new vet appeared on one visit when the usual vet couldn't get to us. I was very wary of having a newly qualified vet, whom we didn't know, do anything with her, as she had been getting increasingly awkward every time.
She behaved perfectly for him. He had no preconceptions about her, she didn't associate him with the previous problems and all was well. Ginny might be fine when the time comes.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks. I am sure she will be ok with time. Leahurst want her injected with something that increases bone turnover to increase the speed of healing but I might leave that? I'd rather it take a few extra weeks than keep stressing her with yet more jabs. I'll talk to my vet about it and see what he thinks.

Pearlsasinger that is very reassuring! Thank-you!!

 

[Nari]

I had a needleshy horse who no amount of work could bring round. For everyone's safety I would dope him with Domesedan gel 30 minutes before the vet arrived for any injection - he could still be difficult but it made life a lot safer.

I agree with Fool's Motto about using Amber to handle her & taking her along on the ridden exercise. I'd want to stick to the vet's plan of exercise & injection to give her the best chance, so for me just turning her away wouldn't be my choice.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks the gel is a good idea.
I agree with not turning away. I think she needs regular, consistent, fuss-free handling to help her settle.

She was unsettled during her first Leahurst stay but was more or less ok once home so I was not expected her to react this badly. But I am sure she will soon figure out that she is ok.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Hi I really need some objective advice as I am feeling upset/emotional and really don't know what to do. In general Ginny has seemed better. She has stopped neighing for Amber and is coming over now to be caught. She is tolerating handling by me and Katie. But last night Katie was turning out Max, I was not on the yard at all and Izzy had finished Jenny so she decided to put Ginny's rug on. The girls have always handled each others ponies so even though Ginny does not know Izzy as well as she knows me and Katie, Izzy is certainly no stranger to her. And also Izzy went to rug her up exactly the same way Katie does - approached her with the rug in her hands - showed it to her and then moved to swing it onto her back: Same as hundred times before. Ginny went for her - bit her hard on the chest. Hard enough to bruise her through a shirt, sweater and thick coat. Then she swung round to kick her as she was trying to get away from her, missing her by a whisker. The bite certainly wasn't just a warning so I doubt the kick was either and my blood runs cold when I think how bad that could have been.

Katie seems to think that all we need to do is make sure only she and I handle Ginny for now and do what we did before and she will go back to how she was before which really was ok. But I don't know if that is very sensible/somewhat optmistic/hopelessly naive or recklessly complacent! Any advice? Feeling lost and worried. Incidentally I have stressed (again) that no-one else should approach Ginny and Izzy certainly won't go near her again. But is that really enough. I don't want Katie getting hurt either. Or me for that matter!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hi I really need some objective advice as I am feeling upset/emotional and really don't know what to do. In general Ginny has seemed better. She has stopped neighing for Amber and is coming over now to be caught. She is tolerating handling by me and Katie. But last night Katie was turning out Max, I was not on the yard at all and Izzy had finished Jenny so she decided to put Ginny's rug on. The girls have always handled each others ponies so even though Ginny does not know Izzy as well as she knows me and Katie, Izzy is certainly no stranger to her. And also Izzy went to rug her up exactly the same way Katie does - approached her with the rug in her hands - showed it to her and then moved to swing it onto her back: Same as hundred times before. Ginny went for her - bit her hard on the chest. Hard enough to bruise her through a shirt, sweater and thick coat. Then she swung round to kick her as she was trying to get away from her, missing her by a whisker. The bite certainly wasn't just a warning so I doubt the kick was either and my blood runs cold when I think how bad that could have been.

Katie seems to think that all we need to do is make sure only she and I handle Ginny for now and do what we did before and she will go back to how she was before which really was ok. But I don't know if that is very sensible/somewhat optmistic/hopelessly naive or recklessly complacent! Any advice? Feeling lost and worried. Incidentally I have stressed (again) that no-one else should approach Ginny and Izzy certainly won't go near her again. But is that really enough. I don't want Katie getting hurt either. Or me for that matter!

I understand your feelings, particularly about not wanting the girls to get hurt but Ginny has only been home just over 2 weeks, which isn't very long in the great scheme of things. I think, if possible, in your position, I would try to be there and be the one who does Ginny for now. I would tie her up, if you think that will help (says she who *never* ties horses up) and give her some hay to pick at while you are doing anything with her. Atm, this isn't about teaching her manners, it is about keeping everybody safe, while doing what needs to be done and gradually reassuring Ginny that she is not going to be hurt again. If one of your daughters had been in hospital and come out so traumatised, would you expect her to have got over it by now? I know the girls wouldn't bite or kick you but that is the only way Ginny can communicate with you and it seems that it is her default setting when she is upset/stressed.
Does she need a rug? Ours are out without currently and are perfectly fine, if I were you I would do the bare minimum with her in order to reduce her stress and if she does need a rug, I would stick to the BHS way of folding a rug before putting it on, rather than swinging the rug up onto her back.
Are you giving her a bucket feed at all? I used to have a mare who was very sensitive to cereals and refined sugar and behaved in a similar way to Ginny because her nerves were inflamed and she had a headache. When we adjusted her diet, her behaviour improved.

 

[be positive]

I had a similar situation with one of mine after a horrendous experience at a veterinary hospital, he had never previously bitten or lifted a leg but came home so stressed he did become fairly seriously aggressive, he was on box rest for 2 months which didn't help, as I knew he had reason to behave as he was I hoped that by ignoring it, avoiding anything that made him uncomfortable and rewarding him when he was relaxed would help him get over it.
I had to keep reminding myself it was not his fault and that he would come through it, unfortunately it did take much longer than I hoped, once he was turned out he transferred his anger to his companion who took it almost as if he knew why he was getting bitten most days, no real harm was done apart from a few ripped rugs, it took several months for him to truly relax and start to trust people again, he was good generally but had his moments and did get back to his normal confident trusting way, so I would say treat Ginny in much the same way, don't fuss over her, if she wants to stay at arms length let her, none of mine are rugged yet so unless she really needs it leave her alone as much as possible and give her time to come round, and as above tie up short if required so she can be handled safely.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thank you PAS and BP. I am trying to stay calm and see the bigger picture. As you say, it's early days xx

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've known of horses get similarly unsettled after stays at Leahurst, though I imagine that it is similar with most big teaching horsepitals. They are prodded, poked and needled by a large variety of staff and students, and some of the students are not horse savvy at all.

Give it time for her to settle back again. Agree it's best that the girls don't handle her in the meantime.

Horsekeeping can be so stressful, can't it.

 

[DabDab]

I understand your feelings, particularly about not wanting the girls to get hurt but Ginny has only been home just over 2 weeks, which isn't very long in the great scheme of things. I think, if possible, in your position, I would try to be there and be the one who does Ginny for now. I would tie her up, if you think that will help (says she who *never* ties horses up) and give her some hay to pick at while you are doing anything with her. Atm, this isn't about teaching her manners, it is about keeping everybody safe, while doing what needs to be done and gradually reassuring Ginny that she is not going to be hurt again. If one of your daughters had been in hospital and come out so traumatised, would you expect her to have got over it by now? I know the girls wouldn't bite or kick you but that is the only way Ginny can communicate with you and it seems that it is her default setting when she is upset/stressed.
Does she need a rug? Ours are out without currently and are perfectly fine, if I were you I would do the bare minimum with her in order to reduce her stress and if she does need a rug, I would stick to the BHS way of folding a rug before putting it on, rather than swinging the rug up onto her back.

Yep, this absolutely. I think your daughter is actually right - stick to people she knows well, be calm and make sure every interaction is very low pressure for now. She'll come round, but it will take time.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks everyone. Helpful, reassuring advice. Re the feed - her feed has not changed at all since she first arrived other than she is now having the Forage Plus balancer and salt with her pink mash so I doubt it is feed related. It seems very likely to be trauma from her hospital stays in a pony who is super-sensitive anyway.

 

[Pinkvboots]

One of my horses was really unsettled after having to stay at the vets, he was a bag of nerves loose dropping really not himself his a sensitive soul anyway but it did take about a month for him to really be himself again.

I would just have minimal people handle her and definitely put a head collar on to put a rug on in the field, just don't take any chances and make her time as stress free as possible and I am sure she will be herself in time.

 

[Theocat]

Sorry, I know this is the omni-response at the moment, but the stress and reaction to rugging suggest ulcers to me, which could easily have been brought on by the stress of the stay. My mare came back from a short stay absolutely dangerous to handle and stressed to high heaven. In her case it was exacerbated by Bute. Turnout, lack of stress and diet should help but it might be worth thinking about if you haven't already?

 

[Ambers Echo]

She was likle this when we first got her and was scoped and did not have ulcers. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Have I read correctly that your daughter trying to rug Ginny when the mare was loose in the field?

 

[Ambers Echo]

No she was in her stable. No change to her normal routine. Comes in for brief groom/walking rehab. Has feed in peace. Re-rugged and turned out. We have not tied her up for ruggin for months but obviously are doing again now! She actually seemed much better untul she went for Izzy. Coming over to be caught etc.

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA we leave feed/hay/water in her stable pre-prepared so we aren't going in with feed or hay.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Had the physio to Ginny again today. She saw her straight after Leahurst and could not do a thing with her. But today Ginny was fine. Physically she looks and feels the best she's ever looked and felt and the physio said behaviourally she was really good too compared to a month ago when she last came. In fact better than she has ever been, even pre Leahurst. She tended to brace when touched so it's hard to actually see what is muscle tension/stiffness and what is her bracing. But today she allowed herself to be moved around and she stayed relaxed. I felt we were back to square one after she came out but actually I think all the previous work meant she has come round again much quicker. We are getting there!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That's good news!