Giving horse sedative for placebo effect on the rider!?

[Chinchilla]

As per title; does anyone do this? Is it fair and safe to do to the horse?
By the way, I'm talking herbal things - not heavy duty veterinary sedatives - like valerian horse treats and things like that.
I probably sound mad but have realised if I can convince myself the horse is safe I'm braver...even if the horse itself hasn't changed 😂

 

[poiuytrewq]

Use something like rescue remedy? I wouldn’t sedate a horse unnecessarily but rescue remedy is great for the rider to use, and animals and so may give the bit of extra confidence your looking for?

Nb- sorry re-read and saw I’d missed the bit about herbal stuff 😳 apologies.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a bit of magnesium?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If it works for you, do it. A few Valerian treats won't hurt the horse, although you need to be aware that you won't be able to compete with valerian in the horse's system.

 

[The-Bookworm]

What makes you think herbs don't do anything?

I would look at your confidence and maybe get yourself some bach flowers.
What is it that the horse is doing that worries you?

 

[Chinchilla]

What makes you think herbs don't do anything?

I would look at your confidence and maybe get yourself some bach flowers.
What is it that the horse is doing that worries you?

The horse isn't doing anything, that's the point, and logically I do know that, sort of, but I need to do something to make myself believe that more solidly. Hence placebo effect - herbs won't do much if given in tiny doses, it's more the act of giving the horse something that's calming.

 

[Goldenstar]

Valerian can have a profound effect on some horses

 

[Ambers Echo]

I am all for manipulating the placebo effect! But you need to be careful about what you give. Herbs/plants can have dramatic effects - I mean many can kill you and many medicines are derived from them.

If you want the placebo effect go for homeopathy. No interactions with anything else, no side effects, no risks! But comes in a reassuringly sciencey sounding and looking package with a price tag to match and a zillion anecdotal stories of great effects. But as it is so dilute there is no ethical issues with giving it as it can't hurt your horse. Or as others have side, just take it yourself!

Be careful though that you are not confusing HERBAL with HOMEOPATHIC. Homeopathic remedies are diluted to 30c (10 to the power 60) which renders them harmless as the active ingredient is actually no longer present - just a 'memory' of it.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Surely the placebo effect wont work if you know your doing it for that reason ...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

So the horse is fine?

I would build confidence the old fashioned way - it works and it sticks IME.

You need to build up a bank of good experiences with the horse, so that when you have a blip it isn't significant compared to the huge amount positive ones. So 1, set yourself up for success, start by doing things that you KNOW that you can easily achieve, no matter how small. 2, build up slowly. 3, repeat, repeat, repeat. 4, feel the wobble of nerves? Go back to an easier thing to guarantee success.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Surely the placebo effect wont work if you know your doing it for that reason ...

You'd think so but actually it does! There is some really interesting research discussed in Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science about that. People can be told they are being given a sugar pill which has no active ingredient but they improve anyway. And if you go for homeopathy you can read all the testimonials and the stuff on the box plus all the homeopathy theories that say a 30c dilution makes it more potent even though science can't explain how.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You've mentioned homeopathy and now all I can think about is the Amazing Randi.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/homeopathy-challenge

 

[twiggy2]

Is it a 'placebo' effect if it's an active product, my understanding is the placebo effect of a non active product causing a reaction due to the recipients belief that it is an active product?
However I would be more inclined to work on the rider as I would think what is given to the horse may become a crutch that the rider can never move away from using.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Twiggy you are probably right! When my daughter lost her 'lucky whip' we scoured online websites to find another one the same. These mental crutches can help but it's better not to need them.

OP try power posing befire rides! That might help you feel more confident....

https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en

 

[Tiddlypom]

OP, am I right in thinking that is part of the on going issue that you have after you were kicked in the face? This isn't a riding issue, this is a 'being in close proximity to horses' issue?

I do wonder if maybe it is time to realise that you have lost your nerve around horses. They are supposed to be fun. Time to move on to something else, perhaps?

ETA I have previously posted that I am also nervous about loose horses turned out in a field. I was kicked when I was a teenager. I am, however, fine with them 1:1.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Surely the placebo effect wont work if you know your doing it for that reason ...

This is exactly what I was thinking

 

[Ambers Echo]

This is exactly what I was thinking

People are not nearly that logical! Lucky pants genuinely help some people!!

 

[Bellaboo18]

People are not nearly that logical! Lucky pants genuinely help some people!!

But the opening post is logical. Op knows its just psychological. I wouldn't want to give something like valerian for a horse that is already chilled.
Lucky pants work. I have a lucky bobble hat BUT I'm a confident person so I don't rely on it. Its more of a sentimental hat.

 

[Chinchilla]

Yes. It's just psychological and yes I need to get a grip lol. But it helps me personally to believe that the horse will not do anything: then, I do whatever the task is, realise I'm fine, and can keep doing it. But I sometimes need something to help me do it first time around,hence asking about giving horse something utterly mundane so I feel they are less likely to do something.

I don't ride anymore. But I am not giving up entirely despite that, sorry but no way. Riding isn't be the be all and end all of horse ownership.
My confidence on the ground is actually getting there, slowly. It will probably never be what it was though. 😪

 

[JanetGeorge]

Chinchilla - just talk to the horse non-stop - or better still - sing! It will help reduce your tension, your horse will feel your increased confidence and that's far more likely to work than mild sedative-style treats. And if you still feel yourself quivering, laugh as loud as you can!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I've always found that trying to get a grip (whatever that means) isn't helpful, I always tried to do too much and then failed when aiming for that. Go back to the simplest thing that you can do without feeling awful even if it is just to give a horse a pat from the other side of the fence. Maybe you are happier if someone else puts the headcollar on and then hands the horse to you and you can then lead, tie up and groom the horse. It's OK if you want the other person to take the headcollar off to start with too.

Personally I would find it harder to trust a drugged horse, but that is from my experiences.

It's a shame that you aren't near to me as although I haven't been kicked, I have been seriously injured and built my confidence up again.

ETA JG is correct, singing does help. My personal choice is 'Back in Black'.

 

[Chinchilla]

Thanks all. Looks like I need to sing then🤭
I probably should have been more explicit about my own (in)capabilities and aims before posting this thread, but....I can now groom (though doing tails needs a deep breath before!), rug, lunge and turn out 3/4 of ours; long reining and catching are 'sometimes'. I can't handle new horses without someone I trust supervising at first, and won't do anything, really, with the horse who kicked me (even though it definitely was much more my fault than his). Anything remotely resembling a flinch or spook from the horse provokes utter terror, even though I can cope with it really, because I have done in the past.

But everything I can do is always done with an undertone of lingering anxiety. It's really frustrating, because I always used to handle any horse I wanted without a second thought. I worked on a yard for a little while in the autumn of last year but had to stop because frankly awful, vivid accident flashbacks and anxiety were making it hard for me to do my best for the horses. (And, being selfish, hell for me.)
So my aim is just be able to handle without anxiety having a negative impact on what I do; I feel any time I spend with my horses would be more enjoyable for me and them if I was more confident.
(Sorry for the essay....)

 

[The-Bookworm]

Am I think in thinking at some point you've had an accident around horses that's dented your confidence?
If that's the case I would give yourself the time you need, to build from where you are.
Break the task down into bite size pieces.

When I had my accident I gave up riding for two years and gradually got back into it again. My confidence will never be the same as it was and that's fine.
Feeling anxious is simply a self preservation tool the body thinks it needs to tell you about. At this time it's worth listening to it, so on the one hand you can face things, but being careful not to jump off the cliff out of your comfort zone.
Have you looked into getting a RI to pop out? Just having someone else there that maybe does stable management type things as well so you can build confidence safely around the areas that are getting your feet stuck just now?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm not sure that you will recover your confidence whilst you/your family still have the horse involved in your accident. This has been going on for a long while now, and his presence must be a constant reminder of what happened.

Is he suitable to be loaned out?

 

[Chinchilla]

I'm not sure that you will recover your confidence whilst you/your family still have the horse involved in your accident. This has been going on for a long while now, and his presence must be a constant reminder of what happened.

Is he suitable to be loaned out?

Probably not: that is the one problem about having rescue animals, they have issues😂 it really wasn't his fault anyway, he's not at all nasty in any way.

As I said, my confidence is getting better, just slowly.

 

[Lammy]

Probably not: that is the one problem about having rescue animals, they have issues😂 it really wasn't his fault anyway, he's not at all nasty in any way.

As I said, my confidence is getting better, just slowly.

I’ve had a very similar accident to yourself only about 3/4 years ago now. However the difference being it wasn’t my horse who did it and I never had to see that horse again (although I would say that the horse “went” for me unprovoked and for no reason) so it’s not like I could brush it off as an accident that happens around horses because that horse was a mean son of a b...

It took me a while to get my confidence back and it’s still not totally there. If I know a horse kicks I’m wary of doing too much with their back legs. Which is probably a good thing as it has made me more watchful for myself, but even friends horses I’ve known for a long time, if I know they could kick, even if they pull their leg back when I’m picking out a hoof makes me jump! But it’s fine, I know why, I take a deep breath and carry on.

I’m not sure a placebo effect would really work for you long term, it’s almost like you have to come to terms with what happened and decide to move on. What happened was in the past, it was a one off accident and you survived! Yes of course be careful but don’t let your fear stop you from getting on with your horses, try to seperate the accident to what you’re doing in the present.

I know it’s hard but you will get there!!

 

[Bellaboo18]

Sorry, I think my second post came across as harsh and I hadn't meant it to. I was thinking/typing out loud and couldn't really imagine the idea working but I don't want to knock what works for anyone. We're all different. I definitely prefer the singing idea though
Also sorry to hear you've had such a horrible accident, don't beat yourself up, I bet you have some days better than others and it sounds like you're making really good progress.

 

[fankino04]

I get where you're coming from op, when I got my first horse she was everything that gives ex racers a bad name, it took time to get her trust and get her settled enough to find out that she was carrying an injury in her pelvis from a long time ago and had obviously been being made to work when in pain. I put her on D&H placid and she seemed to mellow enough to start re schooling (after treatment obviously), the thing is the new attitude Co incided with her being pain free and me getting a new instructor, I knew both of these things were more likely to be the reason for improvement than the placid but a bit of me felt better having her on it so she stayed on it for 12 months. The current pony also had some issues when I got her but having had a break from horses my nerves were worse with her after I came off, she was an angel in the stable but neurotic outside, I put lavender scent on her stable walls and when I took her out I put lavender infused baby oil on her muzzle so I felt she would relax more as the smell would make her feel safer, again don't know if she relaxed because of the lavender or because it relaxed me, I know none of the rescue remedies work on me I need to feel something else is making the horse safer x

 

[ycbm]

Surely the placebo effect wont work if you know your doing it for that reason ...

They've done some research in this EKW, and astonishingly, the placebo effect works even if the person is told that they are being given a placebo which has no effect whatsoever!



For a song, I recommend 'Whenever I feel afraid, I whistle a happy tune'

 

[cundlegreen]

Surely the placebo effect wont work if you know your doing it for that reason ...

Oh yes it does. There have been a couple of programmes on the BBC about it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If the OP was the one taking the placebo herself, then yes it could still work (especially if it was an injection as apparently that has a greater placebo effect than a pill), but she's thinking about giving it to the horse, so one step removed. Would that still work?