Giving horses new competition names.

ycbm

ycbm

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An interesting discussion started in another thread that most people probably won't notice, so I thought I'd start a thread here. It was about changing the name that a horse competes under.

I've just bought an Ithon Patch who will be a white leopard spot when he finishes varnishing out. He was born with a patch but now his spots are round, he has no patches. I hate the name. He's my horse. Should I have to compete him with that name? Should I have to keep the Ithon prefix? His father is not recorded, his mother was a trotter and his breeder does harness racing, which he will never do.

If some names should be allowed to be changed and some not, what should the rules be?
 
It is something I feel fairly strongly about and think the breeder should be able to easily keep track of a horse they bred and hopefully took care about naming BUT I do have sympathy for owners who buy a horse with either a simple stable name in the passport or something ridiculous and unsuitable for some reason.
My view is that if the name is not a "proper" name, Henry/ Sally etc, then it should be possible to change rather than have a number added and most generic passports can be changed, I don't see how a breeder can keep track of Henry when they will have no idea of the number added at a later date and think if they were so concerned they should have given more thought at the tie of naming.

A horse with a full breed society passport should remain with the name given with no possibility of changing or dropping the registered prefix.

Yours is a bit in the middle, if he has no recorded breeding then he will probably be on a generic passport, the prefix is registered so should remain with him, I would possibly contact the breeder and see if the Patch can be changed otherwise I would put up with it, don't forget he will have some unregistered stock on the ground next year and the future owners may like to follow the sire to see what their youngsters may turn out like, there are so many around of unknown breeding it is nice to find one that you can look into a bit before you buy.
 
Some PIOs will allow name changes but only with the agreement of the breeder. However once registered with any of the affiliated disciplines thats it ! I think thats fair to everybody god help us if we go back to the bad old days!
The whole not being able to change names is a good thing for many reasons, from a breeders point of view and to stop to be blunt cheating. My argument has always been if the rules say you cant change a name its your choice whether you buy or not. Dont moan after the event. All my youngsters are sold un named however they are named by me at sale with whatever the purchaser wishes my prefix being there is not negotiable!! I sold a youngster a few years back whos name was changed by BSJA when they would, who went on to win the Hickstead speed derby it was only seeing a photo in a magazine a few years later I actually recognised this distinctive 3yo I had sold . That 3yo was MCed however had another passport as it transpired no wonder British breeding cant compete with europe. I also missed out on a four figure breeders prize! I did get revenge as both myself and to their credit SHGB refused to let them use the mares pedigree when they decided she may be a valuable breeding mare.
 
I should have added that my fellow was a colt last week, who has nine offspring due in spring. I hadn't thought of those, Popsdosh. They will be sold genetically papered, though, it's a real back yard dealer.

A sensible way to do this would be to track on chip number and allow owners to call their horses what they like, but of course that takes a central database .......

I have to admit that I am tempted to 'lose' his passport and 'forget' which agency he is registered with at the moment. I just can't compete a leopard spot BD as Ithon Patch, it makes me look one sandwich short of a picnic :D
 
ycbm said:
I should have added that my fellow was a colt last week, who has nine offspring due in spring. I hadn't thought of those, Popsdosh. They will be sold genetically papered, though, it's a real back yard dealer.

A sensible way to do this would be to track on chip number and allow owners to call their horses what they like, but of course that takes a central database .......

I have to admit that I am tempted to 'lose' his passport and 'forget' which agency he is registered with at the moment. I just can't compete a leopard spot BD as Ithon Patch, it makes me look one sandwich short of a picnic :D
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If the names such an issue why did you buy it? That prefix is obviously important to the breeder as it has been registered since 1978 and is current and they are not a backstreet breeder lol

What would that gain you ? No PIO will register him with an existing chip without first tracing his previous registration which you will still be lumbered with and his name. If they did both you and the PIO would be breaking the law along with any vet who implants another chip into a horse already carrying one.
 
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I would never change a horse's passported name unless it was a generic 'bessy' or similar as mentioned by BP above.

All three of mine have a prefix that pertains to the breeder and I would feel very uncomfortable changing that - one has a breed society passport, the other two a generic petplan. It actually annoys me more that the younger two are on a generic passport, and the breeding isn't properly recorded tbh. The names are the only bit of traceability I have for them really
 
I changed Casper's name when we registered with BD - generic passport, and loads of Caspers already registered, with roman numerals after their names. I added Sychnant in front, so he's Sychnant Casper, but they didn't take off his old name, it's in brackets underneath the new one.

I wouldn't change Rex's name, as he's a registered Welsh Sec C, and although I'm not keen on his name I don't think it's right to change it when he has a breeder's prefix. He's gelded, so never going to breed, but even so...

If Ally ever gets to compete, she will do the same as Casp, as she's just Alice on a generic passport. I'll add Sychnant in front.

Eris has the name I passported her with, she came to me as an unnamed 8 month old :)
 
Why can't you compete Ithon Patch BD? It doesn't look like there is another one - but if there is BD simply add a number. If it is just the name patch when he will in fact be spotty...? I don't think that will open you up to ridicule in any way.

I can appreciate there are times to change a competition name - and some names are impemissible. But there should be a number of hoops to jump through IMO. The vast majority of folk posting about changing names are fairly low level competitors. If you could change a name too easily then it would just be used to circumvent eligibility rules. Sadly that is something I see most years in Pony Club - especially since they tightened eligibility rules for SJ and Dressage. It is harder where there is a chip - but not impossible. And there will always be owners who "loose" the passport and try to re-register - and indeed OP appears to intend to do. I had a PC pony a couple of years ago (not mine - as in I met it..) with several passports depending on what discipline they competed under. It caught up with them when the vaccination record wasn't in the passport he needed for PC camp.

The passport system is a shambles - which is why this happens. But that doesn't make it right.
 
popsdosh said:
If the names such an issue why did you buy it? That prefix is obviously important to the breeder as it has been registered since 1978 and is current and they are not a backstreet breeder lol

What would that gain you ? No PIO will register him with an existing chip without first tracing his previous registration which you will still be lumbered with and his name. If they did both you and the PIO would be breaking the law along with any vet who implants another chip into a horse already carrying one.
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Would you turn down a damned good horse because it had a name you hated ? :D

I did not buy him from his breeder. His breeder is a harness racer. I bought him from a backyard breeder, who used a two year old colt with an unrelated father, him, as their stallion.

Can we get back to a generic discussion about name changes?

Is there actually a central register of chips? How would a PIA search other PIAs for a chip number? Is that even possible, given how many there are?
 
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I must admit it's rare but I'm with ycbm on this

I had a young horse with a very well known stud prefix and he'd had a very rough time in his short life, when I rang them to get some background on him they couldn't remember him and didn't really want to talk to me.

In the event he was unfixable and is now retired at grass but if he had been fixable there was no way on earth I was going to give the stud the credit for him when they had sold him to viscious people who punctuated his life with savage beatings
 
You keep saying he will be leopard spot but actually he might well not be. They can varnish out in any number of ways, with or without spots and can change year to year. They dont go white either so he will never be a true leopard spot, he will keep the darker colour on bony areas, so actually he will be patchy at least some of the time, just not the defined skewbald patchy that most people think of.

At the end of the day if someone has gone to the trouble of registering a prefix and naming a horse then the least you can do is compete the horse under that name. Even if people did ridicule you, which they wont, what does it matter anyway?
 
Frumpoon said:
I must admit it's rare but I'm with ycbm on this

I had a young horse with a very well known stud prefix and he'd had a very rough time in his short life, when I rang them to get some background on him they couldn't remember him and didn't really want to talk to me.

In the event he was unfixable and is now retired at grass but if he had been fixable there was no way on earth I was going to give the stud the credit for him when they had sold him to viscious people who punctuated his life with savage beatings
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Difficult that one, as I picked up NF, who was in a barbaric place with appalling owners, and all sorts of issues going on.
HOWEVER, the breeder had sold the mare to these 'very nice people' the year before and they dropped contact with breeder about a month in (this was a newly backed sweet natured pony). Nobody can ever judge that quickly what another might do with a horse, whether on a livery yard, sales yard or to new purchasers.
Breeder was horrified when I got in touch, but equally pleased that NF is now with me & has had a lot of issues worked through.


Back to ycbm, I completely agree with Pops & BP, I'd be furious if someone changed the name / threw away passport etc on one that I'd bred. OK, I've only bred 11 in the past, but all were fully papered up and chipped. Change name at home for day-to-day use by all means, but not for comp purposes.
 
Frumpoon said:
In the event he was unfixable and is now retired at grass but if he had been fixable there was no way on earth I was going to give the stud the credit for him when they had sold him to viscious people who punctuated his life with savage beatings
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It's hardly the stud's fault - they presumably can't predict the future so didn't know what a terrible home it would turn out to be...
 
For the sake of the horse's future I'd always keep a name. If the horse knew it I'd keep a stable name too (I'm writing this next to a non-KC registered dog I didn't name but which will remain as per his passport*/known details). You may have Ludo (game not Labyrinth creature) for life OP but you may not (I think you're selling another?) and it helps future owners trace history, breeding, comp record, relatives etc.

Most people don't end up competing home-bred horses so no one is going to assume you picked the name anyway... and, besides, lumbering Ludo is a much worse association for BD than someone getting the markings a little off :-p

ETA: * microchip details I mean
 
Names should not be allowed to be changed. We can call them anything we like on a day to day basis, why on earth does it matter what the commentator announces them as when you enter the ring, except for the breeder?
 
Clodagh said:
Names should not be allowed to be changed. We can call them anything we like on a day to day basis, why on earth does it matter what the commentator announces them as when you enter the ring, except for the breeder?
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Because the rider may have had more input into the horse becoming a good competitor than the breeder?

Because it is possible to really hate a given name. If someone loathes their father, for example, and the horse carries their father's name?

Because you know that for every good horse the breeder produces another dozen get treated like dirt?

Because the name offends you? If you had bought the chestnut stallion Ginger Dick (true name), for example, and genuinely found it cringingly embarrassing?

Why not? In this day of chip numbers it should not be necessary for a breeder to impose a name on future owners in order to track the performance of their stock. If the rider was responsible for making a competitive success of the horse's training, why should they be forced to be a walking advertisement for the breeder for the rest of the horses life, against their will?
 
GirlFriday said:
For the sake of the horse's future I'd always keep a name. If the horse knew it I'd keep a stable name too (I'm writing this next to a non-KC registered dog I didn't name but which will remain as per his passport*/known details). You may have Ludo (game not Labyrinth creature) for life OP but you may not (I think you're selling another?) and it helps future owners trace history, breeding, comp record, relatives etc.
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Isn't this all a matter of degree?


I completely agree with highly bred horses from reputable breeders. But from small breeders at the lower end of the market registering offspring without both parents being named, and selling them away from their intended market, e.g. harness racer used on non-descript mares to produce unregistered offspring for the bottom end of the leisure market and then ending up in dressage?
 
My view on it is ....
If you have an already registered with an affiliated discipline Horse - no name change (irrespective of the horse history)
If you have a horse, young or old, that has a proper passport with full breeding and has been named - no name change without the breeder consent
Backyard bred with a crappy passport - well if the breeder didn’t care enough to do it properly then they probably don’t care so much about following it’s future, so I wouldn’t get my knickers in a twist about changing its name before it does something of note.
 
My mum bred a lot of foals. Some of them were top class Anglo Arabs and part bred Arabs, who have done well showing and endurance (up to FEI level.)

Others were by the same stallion out of non descript pony mares, ink using unregistered Welsh types. They had no dam's breeding to boost about, and although she recorded the mares' stable names, they were fairly meaningless. And I can tell you my Mum is just as proud of those carefully bred and reared and sold on ponies as she is of the big name success stories - even if their greatest achievement is carrying a 6 year old around their first showjumping course, and winning rosettes for fancy dress as an elephant. If they'd had their names changed, she'd have been gutted; your lesisure horses, your hairy ponies were hopefully bred by someone who valued them and is proud of them and put a lot of thought into that name even if it doesn't quite fit, even if they were for the lower end of the market.

And are you sure he was named Patch for his colour? I know a few breeders who work through the alphabet, name after films and books, or previous horses - our last foal was registered in honour of my mum's second pony, some 45 years ago.
 
ycbm said:
I have to admit that I am tempted to 'lose' his passport and 'forget' which agency he is registered with at the moment. I just can't compete a leopard spot BD as Ithon Patch, it makes me look one sandwich short of a picnic :D
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I think that is absolutely awful!! As someone who has bred, and taken a lot of trouble to register, which costs money, my foals (I have a prefix) I would be very annoyed if someone wanted to disregard it. I did allow one to be changed to add the new owners prefix but I had to write a letter to the breed society so it would always be on record what the original name was and what it was changed to.

No one will give a **** if your horse is called patch and he hasnt got one!!
 
Doesn't anyone find it odd to sell something and want the right to control what it's called for the rest of its life? In any other walk of life, if you want control you have to keep ownership, don't you?
 
I had a lovely big dark bay for many years. Loved his show name "The Bold Knight" which really suited him. His stable name was...Spot.

He did, if you looked carefully, actually have a small gray spot on his nose but the looks I got when this big bay rocked up.

Same as my old mare. Big bay mare....stable name Frosty!

Only changed a stable name once (horse was called Wally) and in my mares case, with a lovely twist, it meant that I could track down her breeder - who came to see her event with me and gave me all her backstory.
 
ycbm said:
Isn't this all a matter of degree?


I completely agree with highly bred horses from reputable breeders. But from small breeders at the lower end of the market registering offspring without both parents being named, and selling them away from their intended market, e.g. harness racer used on non-descript mares to produce unregistered offspring for the bottom end of the leisure market and then ending up in dressage?
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But what about when *you* sell Ludo, and his name gets changed again, and he ends up at some sales... with an easily searchable name that links him back to his fantastic success as YCBM's Stressage Diva (at whatever level) he stands a much better chance of ending up in a good home (including, in theory, one where he may be broken to drive due to someone looking up his breeder) than if he is untraceable.
 
ycbm said:
Doesn't anyone find it odd to sell something and want the right to control what it's called for the rest of its life? In any other walk of life, if you want control you have to keep ownership, don't you?
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It is not control. It is about giving breeders a bit of respect. It allows people to trace where their horse came from. It allows others from the same family to be traced and family/breeding traits identified. It occasionally gives breeders recognition for the effort they put in choosing the right stallion for that mare. Is their breeding programme working 10 years down the line? And if names are changed willy-nilly how is any record to be kept of that horse? Names are used in competitions, not microchip numbers!!
 
ycbm said:
Doesn't anyone find it odd to sell something and want the right to control what it's called for the rest of its life? In any other walk of life, if you want control you have to keep ownership, don't you?
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As above - don't think of it as the breeder controlling something - think of it as a way of ensuring that the horse (ETA: and, in your case, his off-spring) has the best chance himself throughout life. When people look to buy comp horses on here they very frequently look back at their records which helps buys select animals they are likely to be able to provide a suitable home for. Also stops someone 'loosing' Valegro's passport and pot hunting when you take Ludo to his first outings expecting to get frillies!
 
GirlFriday said:
But what about when *you* sell Ludo, and his name gets changed again, and he ends up at some sales... with an easily searchable name that links him back to his fantastic success as YCBM's Stressage Diva (at whatever level) he stands a much better chance of ending up in a good home (including, in theory, one where he may be broken to drive due to someone looking up his breeder) than if he is untraceable.
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It's an interesting argument, but I don't think I can accept that a competitive home is any more likely to be a 'good' home for a horse, in terms of being well looked after.
 
I'm aware of a lovely lady who has won lots with her amazing cob, Belle. She has never changed the pony's name even though she admits she hates it. So, if this lady can live with her championship winning pony having her name read out over the loudspeakers, I think you can live with patch.

Belle's passport name is River Meadows Head and Arse (really not kidding)
 
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