Going BF - many questions, long post!

[DirectorFury]

It's something I've been on the verge of for about 2 years now, but think I'm finally ready to pull shoes and give it a try.

Horse has been on a BF-friendly diet for 18 months and has EMS that's under control - she's a good weight currently and I'd like it to stay that way! Grazing muzzle when out, soaked hay, and the Pro Earth 'Pro Hoof Platinum' balancer in a tiny bit of fast fibre.

There's a very long and boring story but since changing farrier 9 (?) months ago she's been a bit off for up to a week after every shoeing. Farrier has been blaming thin soles and her habit of picking stone bruises up, even when she's not been on anything other than stone-free field and flat tarmac <hmm>. We've tried gel pads and the mega-expensive imprint stuff which fell out after 3 days. I've left the yard now so am looking for a new farrier.

On that note:
1. how do I find a good bf trimmer or EP? Based on past experience, I know I'm going to struggle to find a DipWCF to pull her shoes and support her going bf.
2. Her feet are bad. Lots of cracks as the horn is very hard but also very brittle - the last 3 shoeings have not done them any favours. On the plus side there's no thrush, her frogs are big, and no contracted or underrun heels.
3. We have an on-off problem with one back foot. The short version is that she came in from the field one day with noticeable heat in the hoof and a soft spot on the sole. Shoe off and poulticed thinking abscess but nothing came of it so shoe went back on after 3 weeks. Ever since then there has been on-off heat in it. She's never lame, no digital pulse (that I could find), and there's no pattern to it happening. I'm currently waiting for a call-back from our nearest horsepital with view to her having a full set of hoof xrays to see if there's anything going on in there.
4. Boots and pads! I'll be measuring her feet tonight but are there any brands/models to avoid?

There's a much longer back-story to what's going on at the moment that I don't want to get into, but I'm also wondering if fertilized grass has played a part in the state of her feet. When she was on a yard that hadn't fertilized for 10+ years her feet were pretty good, and the same when she went to a friends land that also has never seen fertilizer. It's only when moving to the last yard and being there for 6-7 months that the quality of the hoof wall has got dramatically worse.

 

[swellhillcottage]

Have you researched the EMS / Sugar intolerance effects on barefoot horses - I have read time and again they do struggle more than well horses and seem to be kept in boots for the most part in exercise - I have one of these types and my fella has rock hard walls and feet look great but we cannot do anything with out boots - see my post here - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...yone-had-a-Succeed-test-positive-for-proteins

I am sure I will be proved wrong on this - but it might be a good Idea to do more googling. I had similar issues to you and I took my fellas shoes off believing it would be the cure 10 months later he is the same as he was in shoes......

Good luck X

 

[DD265]

She's obviously not comfortable being shod (although the shoes themselves may be OK) so barefoot is definitely worth a go. The only thing I would say is perhaps wait until we have some softer ground if you think there's a chance of her being footsore. I don't have any personal experience of EMS so I don't know what impact it's likely to have hence the caution.

Boots - try and find something that you can use pads with in case she needs the extra comfort. Gloves are rubbish for that, when we first went barefoot years ago we used Old Mac G2s so padding wasn't an issue. I do prefer Gloves but we don't need pads and his hoof shape doesn't tend to change these days.

Let us know where you are and hopefully somebody can recommend a trimmer. You may also want to join the Pheonix Horse barefoot forum; those people are an absolute goldmine of knowledge.

 

[ester]

Trimmers- UKNCHP, EPAUK, AANCHP err and another one
recommendation, tell us where you are, join phoenix forum, ask on barefoot for whole horse health group on facebook.
boots, - hoof bootique, cannock chase, the saddleryshop, equine podiatry supplies- all lovely people who will have a chat through boot possibilities with your measurements (take a photo of hoof with measuring tape on it). Fit is key, then what you want it for/everyone has preferences.

 

[swellhillcottage]

Has she had a vet look at her?

 

[DirectorFury]

Have you researched the EMS / Sugar intolerance effects on barefoot horses - I have read time and again they do struggle more than well horses and seem to be kept in boots for the most part in exercise - I have one of these types and my fella has rock hard walls and feet look great but we cannot do anything with out boots - see my post here - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...yone-had-a-Succeed-test-positive-for-proteins

I am sure I will be proved wrong on this - but it might be a good Idea to do more googling. I had similar issues to you and I took my fellas shoes off believing it would be the cure 10 months later he is the same as he was in shoes......

Good luck X

Ah, the EMS wasn't something I'd considered as it's so well controlled with diet, exercise, and keeping her at a healthy weight. I'm sorry to read of the problems you're having with your horse , hopefully you can fix him! It's certainly something I'll be looking into thanks to your post.

She's obviously not comfortable being shod (although the shoes themselves may be OK) so barefoot is definitely worth a go. The only thing I would say is perhaps wait until we have some softer ground if you think there's a chance of her being footsore. I don't have any personal experience of EMS so I don't know what impact it's likely to have hence the caution.

Boots - try and find something that you can use pads with in case she needs the extra comfort. Gloves are rubbish for that, when we first went barefoot years ago we used Old Mac G2s so padding wasn't an issue. I do prefer Gloves but we don't need pads and his hoof shape doesn't tend to change these days.

Let us know where you are and hopefully somebody can recommend a trimmer. You may also want to join the Pheonix Horse barefoot forum; those people are an absolute goldmine of knowledge.

Going into summer probably isn't the best time to decide to pull shoes, is it! The reason I've decided to do it now is that we're now only a 15-20 minute ride on tarmac to a sandy beach - I was thinking that I could boot her for the tarmac and remove them for the beach so she had the benefit of walking on sand for an hour or so a day.

Thanks for the warning re:gloves, I need to measure her feet up and figure out what shape they are a starting point .

I'm based in Swansea. I know lots of farriers but no bf trimmers. And thank you for the Pheonix Horse link - I couldn't remember the name of it.

Trimmers- UKNCHP, EPAUK, AANCHP err and another one
recommendation, tell us where you are, join phoenix forum, ask on barefoot for whole horse health group on facebook.
boots, - hoof bootique, cannock chase, the saddleryshop, equine podiatry supplies- all lovely people who will have a chat through boot possibilities with your measurements (take a photo of hoof with measuring tape on it). Fit is key, then what you want it for/everyone has preferences.

Great, I'll look them up . Ta!

Has she had a vet look at her?

Multiple times! She had foot xrays in July/August last year (can't remember exact date) as had suspected lami, turned out to be farrier trimmed way too short <eyeroll>. Vet said xrays looked fine then. She came sound after 2 weeks and was great.
More recently (4? months ago) we were having performance issues - not wanting to go forward, rearing, broncing - so had saddle check, full lameness workup, and back xrays. Nothing found at all. Saddle changed anyway and no problems like that since.
The niggly hind hoof is concerning me so vet will be out to see what they say and go (expensively) from there.
She's 100% sound on hard and soft surfaces but really hates anything with big stones. Fine on gravel.

 

[criso]

Just wanted to add, with boots check out the secondhand groups on facebook. When I took the shoes of one of mine, I went through 4 different sizes/types of boots his feet changed so much. The fact I had bought secondhand and could sell with minimum loss meant I didn't mind so much.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Are you on Facebook? Join the Barefoot horse owners UK or Barefoot for Working horses pages. Great advice on there.

 

[laura_nash]

I'm based in Swansea. I know lots of farriers but no bf trimmers.

Some farriers are also good bf trimmers too, so it would be worth checking with any good farriers you are aware of. The farrier who took mine barefoot was excellent. You need one who has plenty of barefoot working horses on their books, and most importantly who you can talk with about your horses hooves and their performance. A bf trimmer will usually give you more help regarding diet, lifestyle etc. but it sounds like you have that sorted already.

 

[laura_nash]

4. Boots and pads! I'll be measuring her feet tonight but are there any brands/models to avoid?

Boots are very like saddles. Your horses hoof shape and the type of activities you will be doing will narrow down the choice a lot. Some of the online companies already mentioned offer a trial option, alternatively as someone else mentioned buy second-hand and they shouldn't lose too much value if you have to resell.

The boots you have initially will almost certainly not be the ones you use going forward. The priority to start with will probably be adaptability for any problem hoof shapes and room for decent pads. My first boots were Boas which were good as pad holders for slow hacks mostly on the road, but are clunky and horribly slippy on wet grass. The pheonix horse forum has a sticky with lots of opinions on different boots.

If I need boots now I use Swiss horse boots, which are quite old-fashioned and you don't hear about much these days but were the only thing I could get to fit my horses odd-shaped hooves at higher speeds as they are heat-fitted.

 

[ester]

It can be trickier with EMS, you will have to watch it but you know about it, you are aware about it and it doesn't mean the feet can't be better without shoes. I would expect to have to boot and pad more than I might another horse. If it doesn't work it wont have done the feet any harm and you can put shoes back on .

You may want to look AlexHydes recent posts about taking her Cushings mare barefoot.

We happen to still be on our first pair of gloves, it is unusual for them not to change shape a bit though and yes ebay/preloved/several second hand boots facebook groups.

Walking, regular walking is good for feet .

I know there was a discussion about wales the other day, thought that might have been further north. Definitely ask around, talk to them, see what impression you get (the different schools work slightly differently, my experience is with UKNCHP) but less is more in most cases

 

[swellhillcottage]

It can be trickier with EMS, you will have to watch it but you know about it, you are aware about it and it doesn't mean the feet can't be better without shoes. I would expect to have to boot and pad more than I might another horse. If it doesn't work it wont have done the feet any harm and you can put shoes back on .

You may want to look AlexHydes recent posts about taking her Cushings mare barefoot.

We happen to still be on our first pair of gloves, it is unusual for them not to change shape a bit though and yes ebay/preloved/several second hand boots facebook groups.

Walking, regular walking is good for feet .

I know there was a discussion about wales the other day, thought that might have been further north. Definitely ask around, talk to them, see what impression you get (the different schools work slightly differently, my experience is with UKNCHP) but less is more in most cases

I agree it doesn't mean feet cant be better without shoes but I was advised by many barefoot experts that removing Bobs shoes was the cure for my ponies foot issues and nearly 1 year on he is no better without shoes than with - I was not expecting that ..... so in this instance removing shoes was not the answer and like the op EMS and sugar are my ponies problems.

 

[ester]

Anyone BF expert who tells me it will be a cure for a metabolically compromised horse is talking bull poo.
They are the sort that really get my back up and you will find me on certain facebook pages getting annoyed with them maintaining that barefoot is always best and never accepting that could be circumstances that it isn't, and actually without shoes can become a welfare issue, and if you have an older horse with cushings is it really appropriate to force a transition that doesn't want to happen with a sore horse. It gets to close to the transition at all costs situation for my likeing and I think a bit of logic has to be applied and horse's listened to. I don't think in most cases a break from shoes with appropriate booting support etc will be detrimental though. Even if it is just to let the nail holes grow down or a different angle of growth to start.

They annoy me because I spend quite a lot of time trying to convince people that not all barefooters are evangelist there is only one right wayers and many would accept that it is not appropriate for some horses.

 

[swellhillcottage]

Anyone BF expert who tells me it will be a cure for a metabolically compromised horse is talking bull poo.
They are the sort that really get my back up and you will find me on certain facebook pages getting annoyed with them maintaining that barefoot is always best and never accepting that could be circumstances that it isn't, and actually without shoes can become a welfare issue, and if you have an older horse with cushings is it really appropriate to force a transition that doesn't want to happen with a sore horse. It gets to close to the transition at all costs situation for my likeing and I think a bit of logic has to be applied and horse's listened to. I don't think in most cases a break from shoes with appropriate booting support etc will be detrimental though. Even if it is just to let the nail holes grow down or a different angle of growth to start.

They annoy me because I spend quite a lot of time trying to convince people that not all barefooters are evangelist there is only one right wayers and many would accept that it is not appropriate for some horses.

Absolute respect for this post and poster!
I am totally despondent atm - I was persuaded to believe barefoot was best for everything and every foot condition - we need more posts like yours Ester - I am not saying barefoot isn't best but I don't think its the cure for everything and certainly not for metabolic issues.

 

[brucea]

I think the message of the barefooters is really that the horse is compromised and whether shod or barefoot it makes no real diference - the horse is compromised. But if you choose to shoe there's chance you're getting a false sense of what the horse can do. A footy horse barefoot is footy in shoes too - they just mask it, the underlying problem is still there and in fact can get far worse and reach crisis because it's less obvious..

Best try and sort the underlying problem, and get the horse healthier. If shoes are the only way you feel you can get the horse to move and exercise then hey ho, movement is king and if that's what it takes.... I find boots useful myself, but not everyone has the patience for them.

I have 2 metabolically compromised horses. Maintenance is a mix of movement, diet and nutritional support. Why don't you talk to Sarah Braithwate at Forage Plus - I am sure she can give you sound dietary and supplement advice that will help.

 

[spookypony]

brucea speaks sense. To that, I would add another recommendation of Liz Hapgood at the Hoofbootique. She's very patient and very good at helping you find the correct boot for your horse.

FWIW, I compete a barefoot metabolic horse in Endurance, up to 80km. He's just had a positive Cushing's test, which confirmed what we've suspected for a while, but there's no reason he can't continue his current level of exercise with appropriate treatment. His feet aren't spectacular (fronts especially have crappy frogs and are very prone to thrush, and to LGL if he's on grass), but boots (Renegades/Vipers, in our case) allow him to cope very well indeed.

I see boots as a superior hoof protection technology to conventional metal shoes: less concussion, less nailing to hooves, better loading distribution, and the ability to remove when not riding. A bit more faff at the beginning, while you're figuring out the best make and fit, but worth it after that.

In general, I'm wary of people that propose universal solutions to any particular set of problems. Usually, a multi-pronged approach makes more sense: in this case, diet, exercise, medical supervision/treatment, good hoof care, hoof protection as needed.

 

[ester]

Sometimes masking the problem is the kindest thing for the horse IMO though brucea, sometimes you can be doing everything else right to the very best of your abilities (granted horse might be better in a completely different area with sparse grazing etc but that sadly isn't always doable for people, but they still need that sticking plaster. I really dislike the we must keep going barefoot whatever the consequences and how the horse in front of me is doing school of thought .

I think the difference comes if they are field comfortable or whether they struggle with any sole pressure. I know plenty of people that use boots for turnout during transition but I am really not sure it is viable for years and that some sort of shoe (not necessarily metal or nailed on, easyshoes/imprints for instance) would not be better in keeping the horse comfortable in those situations.

Boots working entirely depends on them fitting and that can be a bit more tricky with metabolic feet although thankfully we have lots lots more choice now!

 

[Bernster]

What a refreshing series of posts! I'm on some of the bf pages and it seems evangelical to the point of being unhelpful at times. I have one transitioning due to navicular, although it's not proving the miracle cure just yet, I do believe it's best so am sticking to it. May post a new thread on here as have some questions myself &#55357;&#56833;

 

[ester]

For navi I do think it is there best chance Bernster, but it doesn't always result in a rock crunching hunting horse . But usually horses that were better than they were before.

 

[criso]

I find a lot of the groups on facebook seem to focus on magic feed and a magic trim.

Feed is key but more in terms of what to avoid rather than a bucket feed that will solve all your problems. The hay and grass you feed is going to have a massive effect and there's a limit on what you can do to fix it. Soaking hay may not fix it and changing is not always possible on livery yards. Ditto grazing, borderline ok grazing may be tolerated by turning out overnight or mineral balancing but some won't be tolerated by non sensitive horses never mind ones with underlyng metabolic issues.

So you might have a horse that could be rock crunching in optimal conditions but creating conditions isn't possible and there's no blame attached if you can't.

 

[DirectorFury]

There are a lot of posts so I'm not going to reply to everyone individually, but I massively appreciate the time and effort that people have put in to sharing their knowledge with me .

I've avoided the FB groups because they scare me - I'm really worried about causing an argument or getting flamed for something. The posts here have been lovely and well-balanced and I'm feeling quite a lot more reassured!

We've got another 4 weeks on this shoeing cycle (she's done every 6-8 weeks depending on if she's grown enough hoof) so I'm going to re-evaluate then depending on how the ground is. I'm going to have a chat with one of the boot shops and look second hand on Monday (thanks for the tip!) so at least I'm prepared.

Thanks again everyone .

 

[atlantis]

I have a mare with ems who is barefoot and has been since I bought her, just out of shoes, with horrible tiny feet, under run heels and contracted frogs. She has been on a strict diet of soaked hay, unmollassed chaff and minerals balanced (and also lamalert by freestep) since I got her. I think some people at my yard (normal part livery yard with a fabulous owner) think I'm a bit too finicky but I've found that now, 18 months on, we are really really getting there. I would say very nearly rock crunching. Only big stones on the hard road are a problem.

The key for my mare is movement. I am sure of it. We are blessed with perfect hacking for bf, a smooth lane with gentle hills leading to the common with varied surfaces. My mare goes on the lane daily and self trims. Even if just for 10 mins in hand, and as a warm up before every schooling session. When hacking it's around 2 miles on the lane which we do 2-3 x a week. She is out on very poor grazing with a friend in the day. I try to ride daily and whenever I have a spare moment I am getting her out of the stable in the evenings and moving around (normally with DD chucked on top for good measure). Its a normal livery yard. I'd love a track or something but there just isn't anywhere near here. She is part livery, although I'd do DIY if I could but I'm happy with part to be on this yard. It means I have more time for getting her moving around. I don't waste time at all I just get her out and moving as soon as I am on the yard.

I admit I didn't have to transition her initially but she was quite footy on tough ground and stones etc when I got her, horrible crest and fat pads etc. It has been a very very very gradual build up of work. Lots of in hand on the lane and in the school last year (straightness training) and very very gradually building up her work. The key now is keeping the work up especially on the road. When i did drop this (only in the einter tbh near Xmas) she got thrush again and felt the stones again.

I do wonder whether the lamalert has really helped. I think it has and I dare not take her off it as she is obviously feeling so well. I watch her like a hawk for signs of laminitis and also thrush (which I treat eith Milton scrubs and red horse products - awesome products.

Just wanted to give a positive account. We never had to use boots. I was lucky she was comfortable on smooth surfaces or in the school when I got her. She'd been out of shoes 2 weeks.

 

[atlantis]

Ooh and I'm on the FB groups but don't comment or ask for help. Just some of the info is helpful. I find people on here are just great. Helped me no end and their advice has always been brilliant!!!

 

[Casey76]

I've now left every single barefoot related group on FB - in a fit of pique I admit. But if I hear (read) one more time "abscessing during the transition is a good thing" I'd do my computer a damage, and I can't afford to replace it.

Some excellent posts from Ester.

Try taking the shoes off (decrease workload initially!), see how your horse gets on. If you feel that after a period of time, that it just isn't working, it is NOT A FAILURE to have shoes put back on.

If your horse is very sore right after having the shoes off, please give appropriate pain relief - a week on bute isn't going to do any long term damage, and could make your horse much happier during the first few days (most horses don't need this, but some do)

After transitioning, if your horse goes "ouch" when standing on a stone that is on a smooth tarmac road - this is *normal* - it doesn't mean that your horse is "footy" or that you aren't "rock crunching" 500kg of weight resting on a very small area is going to hurt no matter what you have on the feet.

Other things to look out for... Chipping and cracking around the bottom of the hoof wall are normal, even if not aesthetically pleasing.

Rings around the hoof are not the end of the world, and can be a reaction to all sorts of things, including vaccinations, worming, new field, new batch of hay, going out to compete... it is NOT A FAILURE to have event lines, nor do they mean your horse is/has imminently got laminitis. (though if you have a succession of them, and they are wider at the heel than the toe - this is a major sign of a metabolically challenged horse).

If your trimmer wants to do something/ suggests something/starts doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable - walk away from him/her (by which I mean tell them that you don't want to continue their services... not go and hide round the corner while they finish doing what is making you feel uncomfortable ) you know your horse, you know if your horse is comfortable (anyone who tells you that it is OK for a horse to be more sore after a trim is talking a whole load of bs)

Last thing... while it can take upto a year for a whole new hoof capsule to grow, your actual "transition" period shouldn't last much longer than 3 months (unless there are significant pathologies). If your horse is still is significant discomfort or struggling after 3 months it is time to re-evaluate (diet, turnout, routine, workload), if you think that the environment is as good as its going to get, and there isn't anything else that you can tweak... consider putting shoes back on... our horses shouldn't suffer for the idea that "barefoot is best" - though if the moments of discomfort are few and far between, and is only struggling on testing terrain, then it is worth continuing...

All of the above, is just my opinion - of course

 

[Bernster]

What a refreshingly sensible thread this is! It's really made me feel more confident about my planned transition I don't have the best set up in terms of surfaces as my livery yard; that's my main worry but will see how we go and may need to try some booties for hacking over stony surfaces.

 

[Gerilew]

I'm watching this thread with interest as just in the process of going BF due to navicular.

 

[ester]

Casey76 the barefoot for whole horse health group on fb is ok if you do want to venture back to any . It is run by Lucy priory who used to post quite a bit no here.
There are a couple of posters who get a bit antifarrier bashing but I think everyone is pretty straight on the fact that transitioning should not be painful.

F went footy at 6 weeks, was managed by booting and stayed booted for work (all hacking at that point) until about 6 months, he had pretty flat soles (still not amazing) so needed the protection.

 

[LD&S]

I've now left every single barefoot related group on FB - in a fit of pique I admit. But if I hear (read) one more time "abscessing during the transition is a good thing" I'd do my computer a damage, and I can't afford to replace it.

Some excellent posts from Ester.

Try taking the shoes off (decrease workload initially!), see how your horse gets on. If you feel that after a period of time, that it just isn't working, it is NOT A FAILURE to have shoes put back on.

If your horse is very sore right after having the shoes off, please give appropriate pain relief - a week on bute isn't going to do any long term damage, and could make your horse much happier during the first few days (most horses don't need this, but some do)

After transitioning, if your horse goes "ouch" when standing on a stone that is on a smooth tarmac road - this is *normal* - it doesn't mean that your horse is "footy" or that you aren't "rock crunching" 500kg of weight resting on a very small area is going to hurt no matter what you have on the feet.

Other things to look out for... Chipping and cracking around the bottom of the hoof wall are normal, even if not aesthetically pleasing.

Rings around the hoof are not the end of the world, and can be a reaction to all sorts of things, including vaccinations, worming, new field, new batch of hay, going out to compete... it is NOT A FAILURE to have event lines, nor do they mean your horse is/has imminently got laminitis. (though if you have a succession of them, and they are wider at the heel than the toe - this is a major sign of a metabolically challenged horse).

If your trimmer wants to do something/ suggests something/starts doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable - walk away from him/her (by which I mean tell them that you don't want to continue their services... not go and hide round the corner while they finish doing what is making you feel uncomfortable ) you know your horse, you know if your horse is comfortable (anyone who tells you that it is OK for a horse to be more sore after a trim is talking a whole load of bs)

Last thing... while it can take upto a year for a whole new hoof capsule to grow, your actual "transition" period shouldn't last much longer than 3 months (unless there are significant pathologies). If your horse is still is significant discomfort or struggling after 3 months it is time to re-evaluate (diet, turnout, routine, workload), if you think that the environment is as good as its going to get, and there isn't anything else that you can tweak... consider putting shoes back on... our horses shouldn't suffer for the idea that "barefoot is best" - though if the moments of discomfort are few and far between, and is only struggling on testing terrain, then it is worth continuing...

All of the above, is just my opinion - of course

wish there was a like button, seems very sensible and well thought out advice