Good Riders aren't always Good Instructors!

[Ambers Echo]

My dad wanted to buy my kids a riding clinic for Christmas. As it was a present we chose a 'name' and an amazing venue. Checked first that their level (they have both done unaff 80cm ODEs and competed at 90/95 SJ) was ok and booked on. Said Ginny was 5 and it was very new partnership. They were soooo excited. But it was a disaster!


The guy had zero patience for green ponies and even less for nerves. Asked Ginny to jump about 80cm (XC). She refused first time and my daughter came off. Got her over it second time but she was now nervous and riding tentatively. At that point our normal RI would have sent her round a mini course of 70cm jumps to rebuild their confidence but instead they were directed at a 90cm high very wide box fence with brush over. My daughter said she did not want to do it and was told to get on with it. She was riding nervously so of course Ginny stopped - repeatedly! Daughter then got told that she wasn't listening to instructions, was not doing as she was told, was riding very poorly, was wasting her time and might as well leave! She's 13.

Never again. I'll stick with our usual fab RI!!

 

[PapaverFollis]

Oh how awful, I'm sorry your daughter has had such a bad experience especially when it was supposed to be a real treat. I hope she can get her shaken confidence back... and the horse's! Some people are just rubbish with kids. And some people cannot teach other people even if they are really good at something themselves. I actually think it is often harder to teach something you are naturally good at cos you can just do it so can't understand that other people can't! But doesn't sound like this guy was even trying. What a (insert sweary).

I think it works vice versa as well. Some instructors might not be the best riders but have a really good eye on the ground and are good at explaining and encouraging.

 

[Shay]

People who compete at a high level tend to be very driven, determined individuals. The qualities which make a good competitor do not often go hand in hand with the qualities which make a good teacher. That said there are some top names who are absolutely excellent with a nervous rider or a younger person. But more who are not.

Add that to the pressure of what is usually a very expensive paid day out. It only takes one tentative rider to drag down a group leading to the other riders complaining that they did not get their fair share or what they paid for. Personally I would not blame the instructor for having half an eye to the number of prospective complaints and the likelihood of people coming back to the next session. Better - financially at least - to loose one than to loose the remaining group.

From experience with a young aspiring eventer on not the easiest horse.. choose good instructors. Not names. Some are brilliant (If you want to PM me I can tell you who really worked for us and who didn't.) But this is expensive as well as scary and your daughter deserves the best experience. No matter who it is with.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Add that to the pressure of what is usually a very expensive paid day out. It only takes one tentative rider to drag down a group leading to the other riders complaining that they did not get their fair share or what they paid for. Personally I would not blame the instructor for having half an eye to the number of prospective complaints and the likelihood of people coming back to the next session. Better - financially at least - to loose one than to loose the remaining group.
.

That was probably part of it. The instructor spoke to the other parents afterwards (ignoring me!) and apologised for the 'unproductive session' and offered money off another clinic. But the stupid thing is that it is not at all hard when teaching XC to teach different abilities. I share lessons with a much better rider (we are good friends) and it is never an issue. The RI just says you do x,y,z to my friend and you do, a,b,c to me. So she goes round the 100cm/novice fences and I go round the 80/90s! It's not like SJ where you have to put the fences up and down.

My daughters aren't generally nervous and their ponies don't generally stop or duck out. But Ginny and my daughter were just over-faced which led to the delays.

Oh well lesson learned: Choose a recommended instructor not a famous name! Incidentally another friend of mine had a pre-season XC lesson with another famous rider last year. It ruined her confidence so much that she withdrew from the events she had entered and has never gone XC again.

Yes please PM some recommendations! We are North-West and can ride at Eland Lodge, Somerford, Beaver Hall, Dean Valley, Speetley, Field House, Hargate Hall, Southview...... Thanks x

 

[Rowreach]

I had a clinic with an eventing "name", after which I was in tears in the lorry when a bunch of people who had been spectating stomped up the ramp to tell me they couldn't believe the way I'd been treated.

With hindsight it was quite funny, her hierarchy of favourites in the group. Her Golden Child was called Bryony and to this day I remember (and use!) her saying "We must ALL try to be like Bryony!!"

There is a well known Irish eventer who does a lot of clinics over here. You pay a fortune to sit on your horse in the middle of an arena full of portable xc fences while he asks questions that only he knows the (very obscure) answer to. Everyone is so terrified of getting it wrong that there is complete silence .... and you sit .... and you sit .... and each minute of sitting is costing £££££.

When I went to a series of lessons with him it got to the point where I would just say any old thing to get him to sigh and say "no you are wrong" and tell us his answer. That sped things up a bit

Tell your daughters to put it behind them and find a good, friendly person they can go out and have some fun with x

 

[{97702}]

That first experience wouldn't have been with a multiple-Badminton winning doyenne who is famed for XC style would it? I did a few clinics with said individual about 15 years ago when our local XC courses were still open - my experiences can be summarised as 'great if you were her favoured one from the group, otherwise forget it, you were lucky to get a cursory word in your direction'.......

LOL at your technique with famous Irish eventer

 

[Ambers Echo]

Her Golden Child was called Bryony and to this day I remember (and use!) her saying "We must ALL try to be like Bryony!!"h x

HAHA how funny. I wonder if Bryony was delighted or if she died inside!!

 

[Rowreach]

HAHA how funny. I wonder if Bryony was delighted or if she died inside!!

She just bounced around with her blonde ponytail swinging and looked very smug

 

[Rowreach]

That first experience wouldn't have been with a multiple-Badminton winning doyenne who is famed for XC style would it? I did a few clinics with said individual about 15 years ago when our local XC courses were still open - my experiences can be summarised as 'great if you were her favoured one from the group, otherwise forget it, you were lucky to get a cursory word in your direction'.......

LOL at your technique with famous Irish eventer

Actually no, but that was another occasion when I did a clinic with the one you mention. I was having issues with my horse jumping trakehners and her advice was to gallop flat out at them and not give the horse a chance to see the ditch. The following weekend I was at an event and put this advice into action - to this day I don't know how he stopped, but I didn't, and I still have the scar on my knee to prove it. Oh, and the photos of me dripping wet climbing out of the ditch ...

 

[{97702}]

Actually no, but that was another occasion when I did a clinic with the one you mention. I was having issues with my horse jumping trakehners and her advice was to gallop flat out at them and not give the horse a chance to see the ditch. The following weekend I was at an event and put this advice into action - to this day I don't know how he stopped, but I didn't, and I still have the scar on my knee to prove it. Oh, and the photos of me dripping wet climbing out of the ditch ...

Awesome.....not...... I am probably influenced by my first clinic with her when she said my lovely section D was the "least honest horse she had ever seen" and suggested a massive pair of spurs to make him "more honest".... if I had known then what I know now...... !!

 

[Snowfilly]

I often see novices recommended to get lessons with people who are out competing and getting good results but we have a couple of excellent trainers locally who haven't competed in years ie 30 plus. Both very knowledgable, ridden and prudced horses of all sorts and forgotten more than I'll ever know but you get people saying 'oh, I won't learn anything from them, they aren't good Enough to compete.'

One's got bad hips and can't really ride effectively and the other freely admits to being 'too lazy to bath and plait and clean.'

People can be blinded by some shiny prizes!

 

[JFTDWS]

Actually no, but that was another occasion when I did a clinic with the one you mention. I was having issues with my horse jumping trakehners and her advice was to gallop flat out at them and not give the horse a chance to see the ditch. The following weekend I was at an event and put this advice into action - to this day I don't know how he stopped, but I didn't, and I still have the scar on my knee to prove it. Oh, and the photos of me dripping wet climbing out of the ditch ...

Did she take a massive instant dislike to you or something? Attempting to murder clients isn't great for repeat business :eek3:

There are "names" out there who are lovely and patient, even with mixed ability and wobbly groups. I had a completely pathetic session with Harry Meade, who was really nice and helpful and generally lovely, even though I was being a total loser (as an adult on a 14,2 native pony, so I didn't even have horsepower to make up for it!). But I've heard and seen lots of catastrophic sessions with big names too, so I completely understand, OP. I hope your daughter's feeling better about things.

 

[Rowreach]

Did she take a massive instant dislike to you or something? Attempting to murder clients isn't great for repeat business :eek3:

There are "names" out there who are lovely and patient, even with mixed ability and wobbly groups. I had a completely pathetic session with Harry Meade, who was really nice and helpful and generally lovely, even though I was being a total loser (as an adult on a 14,2 native pony, so I didn't even have horsepower to make up for it!). But I've heard and seen lots of catastrophic sessions with big names too, so I completely understand, OP. I hope your daughter's feeling better about things.

I think it was my horse she wasn't keen on rather than me

I have also had lessons with a NZ Olympic medal winning eventer (no, not that one!!) and he was absolutely delightful. I suppose the answer is that you ask around and find out from personal recommendation who is worth it and who isn't. I think a lot of the names are teaching because they need to supplement their income and can charge a lot, but they don't necessarily want to teach or enjoy doing it.

 

[DressageCob]

You say you're in the North West and looking for recommendations. I'm a nervous jumper but like to be pushed, but in a positive way (not overfacing, but building up confidence to tackle fences which I had deemed to be too scary). I've had some great lessons with the following:

Maddy Moffet (based in Staffordshire I think but I've had lessons at Somerford as well as Beaver Hall)

Linda de Matteo, based in Stafford again

John Garton Pope (SJ, Lancashire)

David Llewellyn (Cheshire)

I'd recommend any of them. Onwards and upwards!

PS. I know the feeling. I had a "lesson" with a top eventer. It consisted of "jump that, that and that" and if you said you weren't up to it the response was "ok, next rider". I did some great jumping but didn't get much tuition. The person on a more typical event horse got a lot more input. Hobby cobby and I not so much.

 

[JFTDWS]

I have also had lessons with a NZ Olympic medal winning eventer (no, not that one!!) and he was absolutely delightful. I suppose the answer is that you ask around and find out from personal recommendation who is worth it and who isn't. I think a lot of the names are teaching because they need to supplement their income and can charge a lot, but they don't necessarily want to teach or enjoy doing it.

Shame, I would have been very envious of that one

I totally agree - some of them seem to have a knack for it and enjoy it (and are seemingly nice people who are kind even to us mere mortals), but many others seem to be in it, as you say, for the money.

 

[abbijay]

That was probably part of it. The instructor spoke to the other parents afterwards (ignoring me!) and apologised for the 'unproductive session' and offered money off another clinic. But the stupid thing is that it is not at all hard when teaching XC to teach different abilities. I share lessons with a much better rider (we are good friends) and it is never an issue. The RI just says you do x,y,z to my friend and you do, a,b,c to me. So she goes round the 100cm/novice fences and I go round the 80/90s! It's not like SJ where you have to put the fences up and down.

My daughters aren't generally nervous and their ponies don't generally stop or duck out. But Ginny and my daughter were just over-faced which led to the delays.

Oh well lesson learned: Choose a recommended instructor not a famous name! Incidentally another friend of mine had a pre-season XC lesson with another famous rider last year. It ruined her confidence so much that she withdrew from the events she had entered and has never gone XC again.

Yes please PM some recommendations! We are North-West and can ride at Eland Lodge, Somerford, Beaver Hall, Dean Valley, Speetley, Field House, Hargate Hall, Southview...... Thanks x

I'm based v near Somerford and suspect it may well have been a non-british Olympic eventer you had your session with? He's not got the most sympathetic reputation.
I haven't done much XC myself so can't recommend anyone lovely for you, sorry.

 

[Bernster]

Was having the very same conversation at the yard last weekend. Riding and teaching are two separate skills, and being good at one doesn't necessarily mean you're as good at the other.

 

[NZJenny]

I've always thought that teaching (of any sort) is a real gift. Remembering back to school, there were some teachers who could inspire and others who made you wonder why they were still there. Same applies to coachers and trainers I think, and an Olympic medal is no guarantee.

 

[Mule]

I had a clinic with an eventing "name", after which I was in tears in the lorry when a bunch of people who had been spectating stomped up the ramp to tell me they couldn't believe the way I'd been treated.

With hindsight it was quite funny, her hierarchy of favourites in the group. Her Golden Child was called Bryony and to this day I remember (and use!) her saying "We must ALL try to be like Bryony!!"

There is a well known Irish eventer who does a lot of clinics over here. You pay a fortune to sit on your horse in the middle of an arena full of portable xc fences while he asks questions that only he knows the (very obscure) answer to. Everyone is so terrified of getting it wrong that there is complete silence .... and you sit .... and you sit .... and each minute of sitting is costing £££££.

When I went to a series of lessons with him it got to the point where I would just say any old thing to get him to sigh and say "no you are wrong" and tell us his answer. That sped things up a bit

Tell your daughters to put it behind them and find a good, friendly person they can go out and have some fun with x

I'm in Ireland and on my riding club committee. We book a cross country clinic every year. Will you pm me the name of the Irish eventer, so I know not to book him :eek3:

 

[Ambers Echo]

I'm based v near Somerford and suspect it may well have been a non-british Olympic eventer you had your session with? He's not got the most sympathetic reputation.
I haven't done much XC myself so can't recommend anyone lovely for you, sorry.

Yep that's the one!

 

[Ambers Echo]

You say you're in the North West and looking for recommendations. I'm a nervous jumper but like to be pushed, but in a positive way (not overfacing, but building up confidence to tackle fences which I had deemed to be too scary). I've had some great lessons with the following:

Maddy Moffet (based in Staffordshire I think but I've had lessons at Somerford as well as Beaver Hall)

Linda de Matteo, based in Stafford again

John Garton Pope (SJ, Lancashire)

David Llewellyn (Cheshire)

I'd recommend any of them. Onwards and upwards!

PS. I know the feeling. I had a "lesson" with a top eventer. It consisted of "jump that, that and that" and if you said you weren't up to it the response was "ok, next rider". I did some great jumping but didn't get much tuition. The person on a more typical event horse got a lot more input. Hobby cobby and I not so much.

Thanks for the recommendations. Maddy Moffett is one of the pony club instructors so they know her from camp at Somerford in the summer. They had had awesome XC lesson with her.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I've always thought that teaching (of any sort) is a real gift. Remembering back to school, there were some teachers who could inspire and others who made you wonder why they were still there. Same applies to coachers and trainers I think, and an Olympic medal is no guarantee.

Very true. Then again I had a lesson in the summer on Amber with Gemma Tatersall and she was absolutely lovely and I achieved more than I ever could have imagined! She totally got Amber and knew how I could calm her down when she was getting too wild half way through the lesson. It's the first time someone has actually addressed that issue - normally my XC sessions start well and by the end I am hanging on for dear life with my arms aching! I'm not seduced by fame etc but my reasoning was that a more experienced/talented rider would ''get' the horses better and more quickly and see how they needed to be ridden.

Since we have had Ginny, my daughter has been to a couple of PC rallies and is getting very conflicting advice about how to ride her (smack her she's being naughty versus baby her, she's unsure and you need to be patient). To be fair to the instructor he did 'get' Ginny but it's no use knowing what needs to happen if you can't translate that or give the rider enough confidence to do it. You are teaching the partnership not the pony.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Oh Ambers Echo I could have written this...similar situation within a pony club setting..new partnership with a mare which can do anything but daughter needed a little confidence building and instructor effectively told her she was a nervous nelly was overhorsed etc etc. Daughter and mare won grassroots competition later that season just taking confidence from another mum who rides but doesn't teach. That instructor then became the chief instructor with the pony club and my daughter refused to go again..very sad.

 

[MagicMelon]

I agree, quite a few "top" riders really arent that great at teaching and vice versa! My favourite teachers are ones which aren't that impressive to watch. Ive had lessons with the odd "top" name, usually in SJ or eventing. I find some of them just seem disinterested in actually trying to help get the best out of you and the horse, like they just dont have the time to concentrate. The last lesson I had with a top showjumper I want impressed by at all, he barely said anything the entire time except to slag off another fellow showjumper who I'd mentioned used to ride my horse. Otherwise, he was more interested in checking his phone...

 

[HufflyPuffly]

OP I had a fantastic clinic with Michael Owen at Kelsall if that's not too far out for you . He was patient, confidence inspiring and could cope with a group of horses having different issues within a group :rolleyes3:, he managed to get the bonkers cart horse to jump this!

Spooky fences being her nemesis .

 

[junglefairy]

I find the instructors I get the most from are those that know me, my ambitions and my horse. I find one-off clinics are rarely that productive. I never get much from group lessons and so only do them now as a cheap and easy way to get out and about.

For the OP with a young green horse, I would focus on using one regular instructor otherwise you risk confusing the horse with different training approaches at each lesson. If after a few sessions you’re not progressing then look at another instructor with a different approach.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Oh Ambers Echo I could have written this...similar situation within a pony club setting..new partnership with a mare which can do anything but daughter needed a little confidence building and instructor effectively told her she was a nervous nelly was overhorsed etc etc. Daughter and mare won grassroots competition later that season just taking confidence from another mum who rides but doesn't teach. That instructor then became the chief instructor with the pony club and my daughter refused to go again..very sad.

Wow what an achievement!! I hope the instructor choked on her cornflakes when she won! How sad that she had to stop going though. My daughters have both been told to sell their ponies by PC instructors! Drives me wild. I mean if a pony was truly dangerous then a quiet word with the parent is fine, but shouting 'that pony is a little s...t and should be sold (or worse!!)" is out of order. I'm not sure whether these instructors always understand the huge impact their careless words or throwaway comments can have!

 

[Ambers Echo]

OP I had a fantastic clinic with Michael Owen at Kelsall if that's not too far out for you . He was patient, confidence inspiring and could cope with a group of horses having different issues within a group :rolleyes3:, he managed to get the bonkers cart horse to jump this!

Spooky fences being her nemesis .

WOW!!! Well done!

 

[Ambers Echo]

I find the instructors I get the most from are those that know me, my ambitions and my horse. I find one-off clinics are rarely that productive. I never get much from group lessons and so only do them now as a cheap and easy way to get out and about.

For the OP with a young green horse, I would focus on using one regular instructor otherwise you risk confusing the horse with different training approaches at each lesson. If after a few sessions you’re not progressing then look at another instructor with a different approach.

Yes I am sure that is the best approach. We do have a weekly lesson at our yard. The clinics are useful though to get the ponies out and about. They need to learn to travel and cope with new environments. I've not managed to find a single instructor who will go to different places so we tend to book into clinics for new experiences. And we can't do XC/ arena eventing at home.

Pony club is cheap so we keep going. Plus they want to ride for the area teams so have to go. But it is annoying to keep having different instructors. Most of them are great though and they do know the girls and the ponies.

 

[Rowreach]

I'm not seduced by fame etc but my reasoning was that a more experienced/talented rider would ''get' the horses better and more quickly and see how they needed to be ridden.

I think once riders become a name they no longer need to ride the quirky difficult horses and forget an awful lot about how they need to be ridden - and that a lot of us lesser mortals have them! I had a particularly difficult but very talented horse a few years ago. The NZ rider I mentioned above taught me on him a few times, and even rode him once - he got off, handed him back and said "you understand him and ride him better than I do, but now I know what you need to do". And that is the sort of help you want