Goodwill - upon selling a yard

[applecart14]

My friend who lives in Gloucester is on a livery yard with her horse and her daughters two ponies, its a 14 box yard. The yard owner is selling her house and livery yard attached to the property (its a property with equestrian and agricultural ties). Its about 20 acres in all and she is selling the house and yard and goodwill (whatever the terminology is). Obviously my friend is very upset as she has been on the yard for twenty years with various horses at one time and another.

If someone makes an offer on the property can the vendor insist that the liveries are protected under some sort of goodwill gesture written into the contract of sale so the buyer HAS to keep the yard as a yard with the current horses? Of course the vendor could have her own 14 horses/ponies (may be a show jumper or event rider or rehab yard person) or may not have any interest in running a livery yard full stop.

If the potential purchaser is not interested in running a livery yard (or keeping the existing clientele) not how much notice would the liveries have upon the sale of the property to vacate?

The YO is hoping to keep her three horses at livery with whoever buys the house also, - she has a massive Shire so will find it hard to find somewhere else to stable it as it stands at over 18.2hh!!

Has anyone been in this situation??????? What did you do/what happened?

 

[Damnation]

Yes and unfortunately myself and the other livery were asked to leave as the purchaser did not want other horses on the land apart from the existing owners horses. The existing owners did try to persuade the purchaser but as the place had taken so long to sell and the purchaser offered the asking price the existing owners felt they couldn't say no.

Sorry - not what you wanted to hear

 

[paddi22]

unless the new buyer wants to buy it as a livery yard then there's no way of making them keep it as one. if i was your friend i'd be planning for the worst and coming up with plan b. what a shame for your friend is it stops being a livery

 

[Deltic Blue]

I guess the new owners have no obligation to keep it as a livery yard.
I would be keeping my options open if I was your friend and have a look around for a new livery yard just in case the worst happens and you're asked to leave.

I can imagine it could be a months notice like most yards, although could be more depending on the new owners.

 

[Archangel]

When the house where I kept my horses was sold I was given notice so that I had vacated well before exchange of contracts (new buyer had their own horses).

 

[applecart14]

Yes and unfortunately myself and the other livery were asked to leave as the purchaser did not want other horses on the land apart from the existing owners horses. The existing owners did try to persuade the purchaser but as the place had taken so long to sell and the purchaser offered the asking price the existing owners felt they couldn't say no.

Sorry - not what you wanted to hear

Darn. I was expecting an answer something like this.

Thanks to all who have replied. Its going to be a nightmare. Does she stay put and hope the new buyers want her, but then if they don't she had to find homes for three horses plus so does anyone else who may have stopped on the off chance?

Or does she make the break and leave and hope she can find somewhere local to move to that's just as suitable for her needs.

 

[be positive]

unless the new buyer wants to buy it as a livery yard then there's no way of making them keep it as one. if i was your friend i'd be planning for the worst and coming up with plan b. what a shame for your friend is it stops being a livery

As the property has an equestrian tie the new owners will have to run it as a business and it being a livery yard is the most likely, they may want to cut back but as the planning means they need to make an income out of equines they are unlikely to want to get rid of good long term clients immediately, as soon as the owner has accepted an offer she should advise her liveries that is is sold and hopefully will have asked the purchasers if they want to take on the current business so will be able to put the liveries in the picture at the earliest possible time.

Selling the goodwill means the business is included, books will be made available for potential buyers and it may well be taken into account in any mortgage offer made.

As sales take so long to go through even if they want to change the business any liveries should have plenty of time to look elsewhere.

 

[eggs]

I would suggest she stay put for now. It could take a while for the new buyer to come along and then even once an offer has been accepted it will take quite a few weeks to get to completion of the sale. Hopefully once the offer has been accepted it will be possible to dialogue with the potential new owner to find out what their plans are.

 

[eggs]

As the property has an equestrian tie the new owners will have to run it as a business and it being a livery yard is the most likely, they may want to cut back but as the planning means they need to make an income out of equines .

Our property had an equestrian tie when we bought it. As I did not work we met the obligations of the tie by me making my primary equine income from equines by breeding a foal (which I kept) ostensibly for sale. Tie has since been lifted.

 

[applecart14]

Our property had an equestrian tie when we bought it. As I did not work we met the obligations of the tie by me making my primary equine income from equines by breeding a foal (which I kept) ostensibly for sale. Tie has since been lifted.

That's interesting. Thank you. I shall pass all this on to her.

 

[spacefaer]

My parents sold my yard a few years ago (not including any business though). The new owners planned to run a DIY livery yard and have a couple of horses themselves - it had 15 stables and 20 acres.

They expected to take on "my" liveries but were advised by both solicitors that the day the sale was completed that the property had to be empty, with no liveries there. They didn't get any of my previous clients anyway, but that was another story........

 

[Abacus]

Could she ask the existing owner if she can contact the buyer to ask them if they would be interested in keeping the liveries? Although they won't be obliged to stick to it, it might help her - they may for example say a definite no, in which case she can make other plans.

Although it's a large place with an equestrian tie there are some people who have enough horses to justify needing all the space so they may not necessarily want liveries.

But it will be up to the existing owner to give notice prior to the property completion date - she can't just leave it until then and hope the new owner doesn't mind that people are still using the stables! And I don't see why the vendor should insist that the liveries should stay - it might jeopardise the sale or reduce the perceived value.

 

[applecart14]

Could
And I don't see why the vendor should insist that the liveries should stay - it might jeopardise the sale or reduce the perceived value.

Yes it probably would. Last time it was on the market (about ten years ago it was on for over two years and didn't sell due to the ties which were very specific) so I don't envisage them selling anytime soon, but you never know!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

'Goodwill' and 'Going Concern;' are very different.
Neither have to be acceptable to the potential purchaser, sadly.

However, if purchased as a 'going concern' the potential owner is likely to take over the business as a whole.
They then will issue new contracts to any staff, clients etc. Notice periods can STILL be given after purchase though.

Be prepared............

 

[Abacus]

'Goodwill' and 'Going Concern;' are very different.
Neither have to be acceptable to the potential purchaser, sadly.

However, if purchased as a 'going concern' the potential owner is likely to take over the business as a whole.
They then will issue new contracts to any staff, clients etc. Notice periods can STILL be given after purchase though.

Be prepared............

In theory if they buy a going concern with staff they can't simply force new contracts upon them, depending on what they have already. They would normally have to take over existing staff employment contracts and go through a process of getting changes to terms agreed with the staff, who don't have to accept them. It can be very messy.

Not sure on the law with liveries...

 

[ihatework]

I would imagine any decent solicitor, even if purchaser intended to run as a livery yard, would advise their client to take vacant possession.

 

[popsdosh]

I would imagine any decent solicitor, even if purchaser intended to run as a livery yard, would advise their client to take vacant possession.

Exactly have seen a few change hands and every time vacant possession was order of the day no ifs no buts. It would be up to the existing owner to bring this about before exchange of contracts nothing to do with new owner at all.
Equestrian ties do not require you to run a viable business merely to have horses on the property usually your own.

 

[popsdosh]

In theory if they buy a going concern with staff they can't simply force new contracts upon them, depending on what they have already. They would normally have to take over existing staff employment contracts and go through a process of getting changes to terms agreed with the staff, who don't have to accept them. It can be very messy.

Not sure on the law with liveries...

They would be very stupid to sell as a going concern as it will make potential buyers head for the hills.

 

[mytwofriends]

A yard I was on once changed hands and us liveries were permitted to stay by the new owners.

We were all turfed out when the couple broke up and the workman moved in with the wife, but that's a whole other story.

So basically it is possible for the new owners to take on existing liveries, so it might be worth investigating in your friend's case, OP.

 

[vallin]

Having just spent a weekend looking for livery in Gloucester I'd tell her to start looking now either way!

 

[case895]

As the property has an equestrian tie the new owners will have to run it as a business and it being a livery yard is the most likely, they may want to cut back but as the planning means they need to make an income out of equines they are unlikely to want to get rid of good long term clients immediately, as soon as the owner has accepted an offer she should advise her liveries that is is sold and hopefully will have asked the purchasers if they want to take on the current business so will be able to put the liveries in the picture at the earliest possible time.

Are you saying that the buyer could be compelled to run an equine business? Under what sanction? The Council turning up with some horses and making them have them? I have heard off the courts banning people from owning horses, but never forcing them to.

Just put the livery fees up to £1000/week and then shrugging your shoulders at your lack of clients.

 

[be positive]

Are you saying that the buyer could be compelled to run an equine business? Under what sanction? The Council turning up with some horses and making them have them? I have heard off the courts banning people from owning horses, but never forcing them to.

Just put the livery fees up to £1000/week and then shrugging your shoulders at your lack of clients.

Equestrian ties are usually only granted once the person applying to build the house can prove the need to live on site, the wording will vary depending on the local authority but basically they have to show the business is viable to be allowed to build, often they may have lived in a mobile home for a while and built up the stables and other facilities before applying to build the house.
It is essentially the equine equivalent of an agricultural tie, the occupants of the property, not necessarily all the occupants, must be employed within the local area in the relevant occupation, this could mean the owner lives there and works in a yard elsewhere then they could use the stables privately, it can be enforced although probably very rarely will be, it can be more difficult to get a mortgage, which is why any tied properties tend to stick a bit when up for sale and it reduces the value to an extent because of the limitations, it is not easy to get the ties removed but not impossible, my property had an agri tie which we applied to get changed to an equestrian one but the tie was removed which was a bonus.

An article explaining equestrian ties, the property mentioned is still on the market, probably in part due to it having ties.

http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/post/equestrian-occupancy-restriction/

 

[Fizzy candy]

I think the equestrian/ ag tie bit is the key here. I haven't seen an eq tie but I have seen ag ties. As an earlier poster said, they will need to run it as a business, so if it was me buying it I would definitely want to keep a lovely long standing customer. It can be a hobby business but I believe it has to be the main income for one of the owners. The risk is people buy an ag tie with the hope of proving to the council that it is not a viable business and getting the tie lifted (so increasing the potential value of the property). that's a gamble so hopefully it will be bought as a real business and she should be fine. Ps - I am definitely not a legal expert!!

 

[case895]

Equestrian ties are usually only granted once the person applying to build the house can prove the need to live on site, the wording will vary depending on the local authority but basically they have to show the business is viable to be allowed to build, often they may have lived in a mobile home for a while and built up the stables and other facilities before applying to build the house.
It is essentially the equine equivalent of an agricultural tie, the occupants of the property, not necessarily all the occupants, must be employed within the local area in the relevant occupation, this could mean the owner lives there and works in a yard elsewhere then they could use the stables privately, it can be enforced although probably very rarely will be, it can be more difficult to get a mortgage, which is why any tied properties tend to stick a bit when up for sale and it reduces the value to an extent because of the limitations, it is not easy to get the ties removed but not impossible, my property had an agri tie which we applied to get changed to an equestrian one but the tie was removed which was a bonus.

An article explaining equestrian ties, the property mentioned is still on the market, probably in part due to it having ties.

http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/post/equestrian-occupancy-restriction/

I have this mental image of bailiffs turning up in a horse box with a court order.

 

[be positive]

I have this mental image of bailiffs turning up in a horse box with a court order.

Unlikely but if the local authority wanted to make an example of someone not complying with the restrictions they could make life uncomfortable, I don't think there are anywhere near as many equestrian ties as agri ones and most will be occupied lawfully by someone making an income out of horses even if it is not the main wage coming in or they are working away from the facilities on the property, the main issue is getting the mortgage and selling later if you need to as the property is not going to be worth as much as it would without the tie and the people that are in a position to buy will be less than without the tie in place.

 

[applecart14]

Ok lots to think about. Think friend will start looking sooner rather than later. Cheers.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's very easy to fulfill an equestrian tie.
If I was buying I would what vacant possession then you start with liveries on your terms and a fresh start under my rules
If I were your friend I would look to move

 

[Merlod]

We were given notice to leave when the livery yard I was on was going up for sale, the estate agent told the owners it would be easier to sell with vacant posession. And even if the new owners do let the liveries stay there may be a lot of changes to routine etc that may not work. I was lucky I was in the positiont to buy my yard, for your friend I would recommend getting her name down on the waiting list for some good yards nearby.