Grading

[joeathh]

I know the favourite hot topic.

have been thinking (yes dangerous) that Wetherbys and Arab horse Society appear to have similar types of grading/inspection, in that a vet inspects and approves the quality of a colt for breeding. Then you have the main sporthorse books who have the vet part but a panel to select the animals that meet the book criteria.

Why the differences - have Arabs & TB's suffered via this route, (I don't think they have.) Is it because being older societies Arab and TB breeders know the qualities/bloodlines needed and only leave those animals entire? Do warmblood breeders lack some experience on what is a good stallion hence the selection judges.

Be interested to hear peoples views on each system.

 

[Fahrenheit]

 

[sallyf]

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I love that smiley.
On a serious note though with arabs and TB's it is survival of the fittest and if they dont make the grade no one uses them its as simple as that

 

[springfallstud]

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LMAO!!!!

I think you will find that the foreign studbooks have been grading this way for many many years and the BHHS (who i grade with so cant answer for the other studbooks) has to abide with this way in order to keep the daughter studbook active in the UK (infact it is the Germans who come over for the weekend to assess all the horses) I am very happy with this and one of the reasons i choose this studbook

 

[Ciss]

As some of the older warmblood studbooks ahve been inspecting and grading stallions for over 200nyears I don't think lack of experience is the reason.

It all actually dates back to the fact that the origins of the European warmblood horse lie in its use as a cavalry horse when it was essential that only bloodlines that were rideable (so that the troups could handle them), sound (so that they would not break down in the battlefield) and athletic (so that they could advance/retreat quickly on command were used for breeding. Becuase military ventures are funded by the government/crown there was always money to test almost to destruction if necessary the fitness for purpose of the bloodlines and breeding horses being used to breed animals for them and this is the culture that founded ALL the original European studbooks -- and is the reason why so many are still generously funded by their own governments today.

Race horses and Arabs, however, have always been viewed as 'hobby' horses (even though the TB breeding industry is huge) and have never received such organised support so hence no grading. Also if a horse is being bred to run a mile in a straight line then testing how well it -- and its ancesters, siblings and progeny -- do it is the best (and probably the only) way its fitness for purpose can be tested so any gradings, unless the TBs are also aimed forthe sports horse market is deemed unneccesary. Read the Introductory chapter to the International Warmblood Horse if you want the full historical context to all this.

This is actually why I get so irritated at people who want to stand ungraded warmblood stallions as only stallions that have been correctly graded (whatever the system of the WBFSH member being used) can maintain -- ro hopefully even improve -- the quality of stock being bred. Anything less is a step backwards and basically a niave throw out of the baby with the bath water., so my view is not one of snobbishness or personal attack (as some PMs have accused me of) it just comes from perhaps a wider, longer viewpoint than that of the person accusing me of it!

 

[joeathh]

Teffy

SallyF i don't suppose you get any better judge than your customers who keep using your stallions.

Ciss, thanks. I didn't realise the origins of the gradings that's interesting. I've just bought the book

so will read it. I can see why you get irritated about ungraded warmbloods, I can see all the benefits of the grading system. But I suppose against that we are reading comments that at some UK gradings if 'they know the rider, then the horse should be ok' and questions on the ability of judges. I know judging panels will always be accused of this and hence why I ask what is wrong with the Arab, Weatherby approach for here in the UK and let the customer decide?

I guess the daughter studbooks are a different matter like you said they have been working like this for the last 200yrs with new selection judges learning the ropes before their turn.

 

[sallyf]

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SallyF i don't suppose you get any better judge than your customers who keep using your stallions.



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Thats right and i was pleased this year having moved mid covering season to still get mares arriving from Devon and Wales which we have covered in previous years .
It is an awful long way from were we are now and i am very lucky to have such loyal customers.
Still our covering season only lasted 8 weeks this year and i was very relieved it all went very smoothly.

 

[TarrSteps]

Ciss has given the best explanation, of course.

Also TB's and Arabs are completely "closed" books, meaning no outside blood will every be introduced no matter what personal goals a breeder might be seeking. While there is certainly divergence within the breed the parameters are more narrow and more controlled than for breeds that accept outside blood.

Now, if there was suddenly a push to produce the "ideal" TB and outside blood could be used to do that . . . THEN there would have to be an agreement over what was ideal, then standards for testing it, then control of any experiments that didn't lead in the right direction . . . in other words grading.

So Arabs and TBs are done on genotype - having the genes - while sport books are done on phenotype - type for a job. DNA (or previously, record keeping) does the job for the former, inspection does the job for the latter.

 

[joeathh]

Ah Tarrsteps, that makes complete sense as to why the difference. I never thought to think of it in terms of studbook 'openess'. Now I understand, thank you.