Grand Meadows - Mega Grand Flex. Anyone use it??

[mollymurphy]

http://www.grandmeadows.com/products_megaGrandFlex.html
Bought this at Burghley after talking for a LOOOONG time to the seller. He basically RIPPED a certain other (VERY common - we have also been using it) joint supplement to pieces (and had the proof to back it up), so we bought a giant tub. It's quite new here, but massive in America. Just wondering if anyone else has used it/is using it??

Lou. x

 

[mollymurphy]

Wrong link - its this one!

http://www.grandmeadows.com/products_grandFlex.html

Grand, not 'Mega Grand'!

 

[Jemayni]

Interesting post Molly Murphy, thankyou, perhaps worth duplicating in the NL, Id really like to see the opinions of others on this product.

Would be particularly interested to see the point of view of the scientists who use this website. My science isnt really good enough to decide whether I can believe some of the claims made by the website. For example, the website suggests the HA molecule cannot be absorbed through the stomach, surely this protien molecule would be broken down before transport anyway? Plus there are much larger protiens than the HA molecule shown, that are digested, why can these be used within the body?

Also Id question the research, often scientific research as with all research will only provide a biased view.... for example Cortaflex proclaims itself to be the only joint supplement that is scientifically proven to work, this company would discount this....

Plus, I'd have to wonder, if this company was the initial joint supplement company, why does it not still maintain the monopoly, if its products are the best?

moreover, why has my vet never recommended the supplement? Even if it massive in America, the world is small & surely, if it is a wonder supplement, it would have been rapidly available over here; particularly when we consider that equine america was developed after this supplement and has readily infiltrated & dominated the Uk market....

These are my ramblings & Im pretty sure they will make little sense. Id be very intrigued to see the results of the supplement on a horse; even though I would never use it myself, as Cortaflex has been fantastic to my horse & I do not feel that it is worth the risk to change this... Nonetheless still very interested in the product and would like to here others thoughts, as I would consider trying it if my horse was a little sounder to start with!!!

NB: Can I ask the nosey question that I really want to ask - how much does it cost?

 

[monstermunch]

I can't say i have ever heard of it but it sounds like they had a good sales pitch which, remember, is what they are there to do. It is not hard to rip apart any leading brand in the joint supplements world as they all significantly underdose comparative to a horses weight. It is vital that as a horse owner looking to invest in a joint supplement that you compare lables and facts. There are only three compounds that are absolutely beneficial for a horses joints: MSM, Glucosamine, and Chondroitin. Any other additions are often to bulk out a product or make it sound better but actually have no scientific backing for their use.
Putting aside the ongoing debate of whether or not chondroitin can be absorbed, the most crucial factor of all is feeding at the correct dose levels. If you don't you will get little benefit and certaily not a substantial impact which is particularly important for horses with existing joint conditions.
A horse of 500kg should be getting 10g glucosamine, 10g MSM, and 4g chondroitin daily.
Read all product labels. Which ever one provides the highest daily dose regardless of price or brand is ultimately the best product to buy.
Having looked at the detail of this product it doesn't declare a dosing level but the spec doesn't look that amazing.
PM me if you would like a link to a website that explains all this in full and provides the highest spec triple joint supplement on the market.
Sorry for the essay. Always interesting to hear of new products

 

[mollymurphy]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Well, we bought a 10lb tub (160 days' supply) and it cost seventy-odd pounds (£73 i think), but this was a show offer (1/3 off i think - well it was on the smaller tubs anyway). We were going to buy 2 tubs of the 60 day supply, but it worked out cheaper to buy this one.

The man DID have a very good sales pitch - most of which went WAAAAY over my head, so forgive my probably-crappy babble........!

He basically said that when you have a horse on the other well-known supplement and its stiffness/lameness improves, you think it's working. But then you take it OFF the supplement and its' stiffness/lameness returns. This is because the supplement isn’t actually doing anything to improve the quality of the joint, but just MASKS the problem(s). People will often then put it back on the supplement, thinking they are doing the right thing.

He also mentioned how the 'other' company claim for you to be able to see positive results within 5 days. He said if this is true, why are charities like the Arthritis Foundation spending millions of £'s a year researching treatments/cures??
He said his supplement ISN'T a quick-fix, but will take 2 or 3 months for improvements to show.

He had a magazine on his stall - a joint supplement mag, containing adverts for over 200 supplements. His was rated No. 1 in the US...whereas the other well-known brand didn’t even get a mention.

He talked a lot about the ingredients and how when an investigation was carried out recently (in America i think), only a tiny percentage of the tested products contained what they say on the label. His products guarantee their ingredients. He talked a lot about HA, but that's when my brain died! I was tired from trekking round the XC course and shopping!!!

This man owned the company and was English, but lives in California - not sure if that is why it's yet to 'make it big' over here. He said to give him a year and it'll be No.1 here too! We'll have to wait and see!!

In the mean time, i shall use this tub on my mare and see what happens!

Oh, and Monstermunch, could you please PM me that info? Thank you lots!!

 

[monstermunch]

His sales pitch sounds very intersting but i have to say that a lot of it is exactly that- a sales pitch. For starters you cannot mask the effects of arthritic lamenes with a joint supplement (unless it contains bute which your not aloud too anyway) as the compounds in it manily Glucosamine, MSM, and Chondroitin work to repair and help prevent damage which is strongly scientifically backed. If you were merely masking the effects this would mean that you are blocking pain signals (what bute does) but not having any internal effect on the joints (bute doesn't).
With regards to a supplement working in 5 days that is pretty impressive but never impossible. Like humans, horses will react and respond over different lengths of time which of course massively depends on exactly why the horse is on a joint supplement and the severity of its problems. In fact I would say that 2-3 months before noticing any improvements seems quite a long time (realistic for horses with severe issues) but on average joint compounds will take effect within a month id fed at the correct levels.
No joint supplement is a quick fix even the ones that work quickly or claim to work quickly are a long term commitment. A joint supplement will only be beneficial and effective for the time you are feeding it.

The investigation that was carried out on joint supplements did absolutely find that many supplements didn't contain what they said. However like he was saying to you, all these companies claimed they were providing particualr levels so him bringing this up is irrelavant because unless he can prove to you there and then what is in his supplement you have to take his word for it, just as you do with all the other supplements.

If a lot of his imformation went over your head this is not a good thing. The basic foundation of joint supplements it pretty easily absorbed by anyone who knows little about it. If you weren't understanding it then he wasn't explaining it properly to you (usually because they are not qualified to talk about joints and don't understand them themselves).

HA is the new up and coming joint compound, however its use in supplements is not scientifically backed - quite the opposite. It's use is well documented as an injection where it is highly concerntrated and specific areas can be targeted ,and the results have ben good. However HA's molecules are extremely large and it has been shown that horses struggle to absorb it through the gut in a supplement. Also it is an extremely expensive compound and as such all companies higely underdose on its inclusion. they merely include token gesture amounts so that they can claim it is included. In fact HA should be fed at the same daily levels as glucosamine, 10g daily, and it is usually only included at 0.80mg or less. This is less than a 10th of a gram and is unlikely to have any effect at all on your horse.

How big or successful a product is does nit neccessarily reflect how good it is as a supplement. It's not hard for a rubbish supplement to become huge if they have a lot of financial backing for advertising etc. Similarly it is incredibly hard for a new supplement to become well known if they have no finacial backing.

Anyways sorry about this essay. It will indeed be interesting to see wherher he does become big in this country.

 

[judymoon]

I cant help but have a word here. This is a new company in the U.K. but established in U.S. The 'other' company has little activity in the U.S. anymore due to patent issues that don't effect it here.
G.M product takes 2-3 months to work because that is how long Glucosamine can take to work at theraputic levels. Now the other company (i am no great fan here but use another product, will come to that) combines its glucosamine with HA wich, without getting to scientific, comes from the same family as Glucosamine (glycosaminoglycins) The HA significantly speeds up the effect and yes, it is possible to see results that quick, but i would be inclined to go for 2 weeks rather than 5 days. So my conclusion to that is don't necessarily get sucked into the dissing of other companys, everyone has a different view on how things work but it doesn't meen its wrong. These are american based companys and boy their marketing can be V. aggresive.
G.M. is not necessarily offering anything new, i think there are dozens and dozens of products like theirs on the market. Price wise, their cost is reflective of the fact there is no HA in the product, that stuff is expensice.
Finally, good clinical trials and independant studies should be provided otherwise it would appear they are riding the backs of others work. For the record i use Kinesis Health's (.com) Conquer and Chondrogen EQ. It is backed by clinical trials and independant studies and veterinary published studies. They have the original patent for the oral use of HA and did all the work to prove that HA works taken orally. Its not a massive brand by any standards but its a quality product in my view. Monsterunch i have to disagree with you saying HA is not backed by science. Equine Vet Journal had a study that won a clinical evidence award for a study on oral HA use post surgical on hocks. But its nice to here your understanding on teh supplement market you are quite right about finacial backing and bid not necessarily being best.
For your interest
www.kinesishealth.com

 

[magic14339]

Hi there I have used the product and thought the results were amazing my mare is moving so much more fluently now than before. - diagnosed with a hock joint problem about two months ago. Looking into the evidence grand meadows has it has opened my eyes up to the products I previously would have considered using. I always wondered why it was so hard to understand the labels and ingredients!!

 

[magic14339]

I would just like to add somthing to your comments on pain blocking. MSM is renowned for it's antiinflammatory and pain reducing properties however this is dependant on the levels fed. A product loaded with MSM is anti-inflammatory thus the results obtained cannot be guaranteed to be due to the joint health improving. This is why products often get quick results. I would urge anyone interested to look into the NASC the regulatory body which operates in the states and observe who is a member and who isn't!

 

[mollymurphy]

So sorry for the late reply - only just remembered i didnt reply!!

Anyway, thank you all! And i must say - so far so good! She deffinately seems to be tracking up more on the lunge and she's only been on it for about 6 or 7 weeks.

Nice to know my money wasnt wasted!!

Lou. x