GRAND NATIONAL 2013

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Horselover39

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I have just seen an advert for this years meeting, apparently after last years "Casualties" number are down to attend the Great Race?
What do you guys think. Should this race be allowed to continue? Are Aintree getting it right or very wrong.....
 
The greater the scare-mongering, the greater the interest in the race.

The tragedy is that the Jockey Club invited the opinions of those equine authorities, the rspca, and acquiesced to the whipped up public demand, lowered the fences, made the race faster, and guess what? You've got it, the accident rate rose. ;)

Such good sense, don't you think? :D

Alec.
 
Yes the race should continue. It's the media hype that people get wound up about. 2 horses died in one of Red Rum's races all those years ago but it didnt cause public outrage as, to be honest, the race was only popular to those involved with horses.

It is the media that is killing the race and it's vibe but without the press there would be no race.
 
Well it is possible to train a horse in such a way that it is able to do the GN.

I believe most accidents do happen because the field is to tight, not really because of the fitness.

So they should reduce the amount of starting horses for safety reasons.

On the other hand side, most people like the thrill about broken legs and necks.

It is so exiting, will they survive, will they come back in one piece? The damage is a part of the party. Sick

And no, I am not from the green party, I am in the game as well. But none of my horses would ever start at the GN. No matter if it was good enough or not.
 
Yes of course it should continue. I personally love the Grand National and yes, I get saddened when horses get injured or die. But at the end of the day, it will continue for many more years. The fact that they're actually trying to improve the course makes me more confident that over the years there will be less fatalities. So I think the Grand National should continue as it really is fun and exciting to watch and many people look forward to it throughout the year.
 
Alec Swan said:
The tragedy is that the Jockey Club invited the opinions of those equine authorities, the rspca, and acquiesced to the whipped up public demand, lowered the fences, made the race faster, and guess what? You've got it, the accident rate rose. ;)

Such good sense, don't you think? :D

Alec.
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A well meaning, but epic fail. Totally agree with you.

Fintan said:
On the other hand side, most people like the thrill about broken legs and necks.
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Sorry, but you're wrong there. Thrills are what they are. Close racing, a race won on the nod, a stride taken out, a "save of the century" by a jockey with both legs on the same side of the horse, hanging round it's neck and somehow clinging on. THAT is thrilling. Broken legs and necks are not :(
I love watching the GN, and I love the excitement, much as like I love watching motorbike racing. Falls and mayhem are common in both, but I NEVER enjoy seeing a serious injury/ fatality. That is just heartbreaking.
 
I think (if I may be a bit presumptuous here) that Fintan's reference to "thrills" was more properly meant in the context of the sensationalism that is attendant upon any tragedy that occurs in the Grand National, or any major race. Certain of the media feast upon it somewhat disproportionately.... many a time I've been horrified at photographs taken nano-seconds apart showing some ghastly fall at a fence and splurged in technicolour across some publications. As Fintan notes: sick.

I do wish, instead, the media would take a more measured approach - in all things, actually!
 
I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....
 
Grand National SHOULD continue. Aintree is actually one of the safest and hugest welfare courses around. Some of the others not so and they need to brush their ideas up.

Alec Swan the more I see of what you have read the further I am convinced that you just have a vendetta against certain welfare organisations. Aintree has worked with the RSPCA ( david Muir) extensively with the fences, not simply lowering as many people put it but the profile and the inherent frame. He Also brought in special loose horse run in areas etc etc. Not to mention his work with the cushioned whip/hurdles and the water jump. This has only got to be positive.

It is the owners/trainers and jockeys who have GOT to take responsibility for the horses in the Grand National.
 
Horselover39 said:
I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....
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This is true; a quick look at the statistics will show you that far more horses have died since the fences were lowered & the drainage re-done.
In the 1930s there were 6 deaths, the 1940s, (racing didn't take place in '41,42,43,44,45), 3, 1950s 6, 1960s 5, 1970s 9, 1980s 5, 1990s 10 & since 2000 12.
The jumps were initially altered in the early 1960s & again in the 1980s & twice since then.

Another factor is the type of horse competing. Although only three horses have won the race that were specifically bred to race on the flat: Double Chance in 1925, Battleship in 1938 & Red Rum in 1973, 1974 & 1977, there are increasing numbers of horses taking part in the race, that have flat pedigrees, or are of a lighter & more fragile build. Up to the 1960s horses came from old fashioned jumping pedigrees & were more likely to be out-breds with good bone. These were also "stores" & slowly matured to develop strong bone on limestone pastures.

Although less fashionable flat race stallions have long been recruited for National Hunt breeding, there were more hardy out-crosses, from lines such as Hurry On & Son in Law, long consigned to history. Today we have Northern Dancer mega inbreds with shelly white feet & silver tails! They are the popular lines & some NH horses are now inbred to Northern Dancer.
The French bred horses, where they might be quick maturing & run over jumps young, do have a "bit of rough" & some like Neptune Colonges are Selle Francias, effectively half breds.

All this has conspired to produce a much faster race over smaller, narrower jumps, competed by lighter framed, fragile & in some cases horses inbred to North American stallions with their history of faulty conformation.
Recipe for disaster all round.
 
YES it should continue, and I will probably get loads of flack for saying this, Put all the fences and track back to how it used to be! You needed a good strong built, staying, jumping horse to win this race years ago, now the fences have been modified, the ground is testing, the speed over this course is now too fast, because the fences have been modified. Years ago you had a NATIONAL horse, they were special, probably not raced in much before the National, today they at Cheltenham in the Gold Cup then a month later they in the National? What does that say? not a test of stamina and jumping ability anymore (too much speed).
 
I have looked closely at the breeding of horses fatally injured in the race this century & the results are:
Northern Dancer Male Line....
Synchronised, flat bred & 2 crosses of Hail to Reason
According to Pete, flat bred, outbred
Hear the Echo, NH bred & 2 crosses of Sir Gaylord
Manx Magic, flat bred, crosses of Nearco 3X3 &4, Hyperion 2X4, Mahmoud 2X4
Thyne&tyneagain, NH bred outbred
Dooney's Gate, NH bred, outbred

Other two horses
McKelvey, NH bred inbred to Le Haar 3X4
Last Fling NH bred 4X4 His Highness

I suppose the Northern Dancer statistic reflects the popularity of the line. Northern Dancer has a cross of Native Dancer who is a known factor in passing on unsoundness.
 
How often is a major steeplechase won by a horse who can go on to produce progeny?

I don't know what the answer is with the National this year, but for sure NH breeding is calculated to produce horses who can't cope with major steeplechases, because the winners at that game are mostly already gelded.

It's a crazy, crazy way to breed jumping racers. They'd be better off crossing out to good eventers wouldn't they?
 
Looking at the statistics, deaths began to increase as smaller lighter built horses began to compete in the race. Further back most horses are purpose bred for jumping & the conformation & frame of the winners/runners up, is solid with a lot of bone below the knee. After the 1960s winners became smaller & lighter, though horses like Gay Trip (& others by the stallion Vulgan) would look massive today, compared to the likes of Synchronised, who probably shouldn't have been asked to jump the course.

NH horses to produce progeny have been Cheltenham Gold Cup winner from the late 1940s Fortina, Manicou, who one the King George VI chase (both bred in France). More recently Champion Hurdle winners Eboneezer, Saucy Kit, Monksfield & Alderbrook have been at stud. The last entire male Grand National winner was Battleship in 1938, who sired jumpers in his native USA.
The last two mares to have won, Sheila's Cottage & Nickel Coin, didn't produce many winners. Tiberetta, a runner up in the 1950s threw the good horse Spanish Steps who was also placed at Aintree.

I personally agree with other posters that the jumps should be raised, the course softened to slow the ground & the race continued.

Another factor regarding the falls is that Aintree is one of the few courses with drop fences. Haydock had drops, but it made the jump course temporary some years ago, disgracefully in my mind, & there is no where to give a horse the experience of drop fences taken at racing speed any more. Some of the fences (on wheels) are a joke, more like small hurdles, no wonder horses come to grief when they experience a solid fence.
 
cptrayes said:
How often is a major steeplechase won by a horse who can go on to produce progeny?

I don't know what the answer is with the National this year, but for sure NH breeding is calculated to produce horses who can't cope with major steeplechases, because the winners at that game are mostly already gelded.

It's a crazy, crazy way to breed jumping racers. They'd be better off crossing out to good eventers wouldn't they?
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Para 1. Most chasers are geldings, so a horse is created as being the finite product, and then it's back to the drawing board.

Para 2. I don't understand the use of the word "Calculated". Calculated by who?

Para 3. How right you are, but these known producers of the best NH horses, are so mind numbingly expensive as to preclude them from the event breeding market. Why there's a degree of thinking which holds back the very best NH Stallions from event bred mares, is beyond me.

I'd also add that the best of the chasing bred horses are now coming from the flat bred lines, and in my humbled and not to be valued opinion, that's a huge error. The "Jump" is being bred out of far to many horses. Getting it back will be near impossible.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Para 2. I don't understand the use of the word "Calculated". Calculated by who?
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The expression is commonly used and figurative.

It means, if you set out with a deliberate plan to breed National Hunt horses which will not be strong enough to do the job as safely as it can be done, then a very good way to do that would be to take the path which is being taken right now:

- geld the males before they ever prove whether they can do the job.
 
In regards to out crossing to eventing stock - look at what Angrove Stud did - they crossed a flat bred mare with a stocky, sports horse and they got a stocky jumping horse [content removed]. So it doesn't always work. The French have the right idea when crossing them with Selle Francais to give some bone and jumping ability.

As to entires jumping - mostly they become to protective of 'themselves' and jump too big and too slow and lose a lot of ground in the process. Can't really blame them to be honest!
 
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I accept your point, but were there ever Stallions which ever "Jumped"? The odd thing, or so it seems to me, is that the bulk of the very best NH and Chasing horses, still arrive, by chance.

I don't know, and wish that I did!!

Alec.
 
EKW said:
In regards to out crossing to eventing stock - look at what Angrove Stud did - they crossed a flat bred mare with a stocky, sports horse and they got a stocky jumping horse [content removed]. So it doesn't always work. The French have the right idea when crossing them with Selle Francais to give some bone and jumping ability.

As to entires jumping - mostly they become to protective of 'themselves' and jump too big and too slow and lose a lot of ground in the process. Can't really blame them to be honest!
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I'm not sure that Angrove are a good example ;) They crossed for colour when they should have been crossing for fast safe jumping, for which I'd go for a proven eventing sire if I couldn't have an NH winner.
 
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cptrayes said:
I'm not sure that Angrove are a good example ;) They crossed for colour when they should have been crossing for fast safe jumping, for which I'd go for a proven eventing sire if I couldn't have an NH winner.
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Yes, true, but they were the only ones I could think of as an example lol!
 
Horselover39 said:
I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....
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100% agree with this. If you look at last year's Becher Chase over the national fences (although a shorter race) not one of the horses fell in this race & it had less than half the runners in the national.

Honeylight said:
I have looked closely at the breeding of horses fatally injured in the race this century & the results are:
Northern Dancer Male Line....
Synchronised, flat bred & 2 crosses of Hail to Reason
According to Pete, flat bred, outbred
Hear the Echo, NH bred & 2 crosses of Sir Gaylord
Manx Magic, flat bred, crosses of Nearco 3X3 &4, Hyperion 2X4, Mahmoud 2X4
Thyne&tyneagain, NH bred outbred
Dooney's Gate, NH bred, outbred

Other two horses
McKelvey, NH bred inbred to Le Haar 3X4
Last Fling NH bred 4X4 His Highness

I suppose the Northern Dancer statistic reflects the popularity of the line. Northern Dancer has a cross of Native Dancer who is a known factor in passing on unsoundness.
Click to expand...

I can kind of see your point but yo have to take into account the way these horse's died for that to be the main reason for the fatalities.

McKelvey for instance died as for some reason he tried to go under the rails whilst he was loose, he broke his back doing so :( hence the reason there are now gaps between the fences so the loose horses can go around the fences instead of trying to go over the fence or under the rails.

The only NH breeding stallion (that I can think of off the top of my head) that was succesful in NH racing is Alderbrooke but even then he was a hurdler & I think even he comes from flat lines??
 
Yes Alderbrook was a flat horse who only hurdled 6 times. During those 6 runs he won and was 2nd in the Cheltenham Champion Hurdle and his final start was a winning one in the Scotyish Champion Hurdle. All 2mile hurdle races so not exactly the sort of horse you would see siring some of our best long distance chasers at the moment.
 
I look forward to the National each year, I love looking over the horses, riders and trainers and eying up my favourite. I'll always have a bet on a couple, one to win and one each way. I enjoy watching National day, all of it. Yes it's sad when a horse dies or a jockey gets injured but as has been proven in the past if a horse doesn't want to go then they won't. I was a bit disappointed last year about Synchronised, it was one of those situations that I saw coming before the race even started when he was off having his jolly, mistakes will always be made though and accidents will unfortunately always happen.

I think the number of entries is OK as has been proven for many years in the past but I think the height of the fences should be raised again as it does seem to slow them down and to a certain degree space them out as the higher the fence the more likely the horse will be to duck to the side to get in an extra stride rather than just plow straight through it, hence when the fences were bigger it seemed they were actually spaced out more. I also agree that the ground should always be on the soft side for the National, I've seen some real nasty falls when the ground has been fast and it really does make you hold your breath as 40 horses come pounding in to the first fence. But then you don't want it so soft that you end up with tired horses struggling to get over the last 5 jumping efforts or collapsing or needing oxygen.

I go to airshows and without fail, every year, I am stood next to someone that is bored and will say "is that one gonna crash?" and you hear a collective gasp as an aircraft does a seemingly dangerous manoeuvre and some will go "awwww" in disappointment when the aircraft pulls up and away and doesn't plummet into the ground.

It's not what I would class as normal behaviour but unfortunately it seems to be common behaviour for spectators watching risk sports. I don't think the National is going to ever suffer with attendance figures unless they drastically change the course so it's utterly boring and easy.
 
@ alliersc1
I think you did misunderstand me. Thrill for many people is a strange thing.

For the thrill I did nearly do everything. I was doing fight clubs, boxing, motorcycling and skydiving. As well riding and here my favorite is eventing but I am in the races as well.

The only difference here is, whenever I use a horse for my sport I have to think and take care for two. It is never the horse’s decision to jump with me some strange things, it is my decision and for this I have to take responsibility.
I have to reduce the risk in any possible regard in such a way that I can bring the horse home sound and save.
OK, **** can happen but it is my job to sort it out without ignorance only because it is only a horse.

The thrill, yes. But did you ever think about the following?
Two headlines in the newspaper:

A Gang member did lead an old granny save over the road.

And now:
A gang member did kill an old granny and did rob her.

What is the newspaper that will be bought? And why?

People like bloody sensations but nobody is interested in a peaceful bingo game from the nursing home.
How interesting would the GN be without any unpleasant accidents? No injuries, neither a horse nor a jockey? Nobody killed? All this is a massive promotion and a massive magnet for people and betting.
The same phenomena like people sitting in front of the cage at an ultimate fight event.
 
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