Grand National to be made 'safer'

[BeBopTalulah]

Back in the day, yes this did happen to an extent. Many, many moons ago, if a horse didn't make the grade it went hunting.

The next phase of racing came along. Horses that were useless, injured themselves and the likes were disposed of - yes, mostly to the hunt kennels or the slaughter houses.

Racing today - You would be surprised at just how many owners and trainers have a concience and a REPUTATION to look after! It wouldn't do for a major owner to just dump his horses or slaughter them for no reason. They would quickly lose friends and possible business deals. Trainers also have a reputation o uphold. It wouldn't look very good on their cv to have their horses vanish off the face of the planet for no apparent reason. With the amount of exhileration and heart break that goes into owning a racehorse, their owners becone very affectionate of their horses and would rather know they are living a happy life somewhere than have the knowledge that the source of much of their emotion is in a dog food can.

I appreciate what you're saying, I really do. When you see TBs at that level, it's evident that they are well cared for and in great condition, AND that they do love racing. It's just very difficult to read what gets written without having serious doubts. Why are so many bred? Are there really such poor odds of coming across a winner?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Breeding a winner is a lottery, by going for the best bloodlines all you are doing is increasing your chance of sucess - but it doesn't guarantee it. You get a new mare to stud or a stallion to stand and until they have a few crops of foals on the track you never know what they are going to produce - distance, ground, speed, stamina. Going by what trip etc. the parents ran over is giving you a base to start at. Until those first crops race you could find that you have a 2mile chaser that is the produce of 2 sprinters. The first crops are always the most diverse and alot of them won't make the grade. The breeding is then refined to breed only what each horse is capable of producing.

Racehorses HAVE to be conceived naturally. No AI or the likes. This is one way in which racing is keeping it's numbers much lower.

 

[Mike007]

I appreciate what you're saying, I really do. When you see TBs at that level, it's evident that they are well cared for and in great condition, AND that they do love racing. It's just very difficult to read what gets written without having serious doubts. Why are so many bred? Are there really such poor odds of coming across a winner?

A very good question!I think the answer ,and also the answer to so many problems in racing and rehoming thoroughbreds is that the TB stud Book was closed far to early .I am sure breeding gurus will leap in here ,but I think it was only about 40 years ago. The result is that while we have been selectively breeding from stalions fast over a short distance (and speed is effectively directly related to poor conformation for strength )we have been depleting a gene pool of variation . The gene pool was pretty sparse to start with. When you look at those big old chasers of the 1920,s remember that a lot of them would now be barred from racing as their breeding would not be considered pure TB.

 

[Maesfen]

I believe that any alterations to make the grand national "safer " will have exactly the opposite effect. The fact is that it is the very improvements that have caused the problems. If you study the grand national of for example 1925 and compare it with last year the contrast is amazing. The fences then were huge and solid blackthorn hedges. Every horse had to jump up and big. This contrasts with now where half the field are jumping well below the top and the other half are jumping high. This is a very bad thing because it confuses horses (Half lengthing them). In the old footage you will see that nobody is "racing"they are just trying to give their horses the best view of the fences and the best chance.
Canal turn is a classic example of the change for the worse. In those days there was none of the crowding for the racing line round the corner. In those older races it was mostly the jockeys getting unseated that ended their race. Sure ,horses fell and were sometimes killed but the comparison would be closer to an unfortunate event horse being killed.
The grand national course was not built for this modern fast racing with all the field trying to take the same line. I love the Grand National with a passion,but I think that if we have to make it "softer" and therefore faster ,I would rather see it stopped,because it will degenerate further into a dangerous farce.

Couldn't agree more with you Mike especially as it's ruined already by the safety measures that have been taken to date which aren't working either.

 

[Natch]

Ban racing and you'd better be prepared for almost all progress in veterinary medicine for horses to stop, to the detriment of every horse in the country. Where do you think the money to develop that safer vaccine, more effective wormers, to understand nutrition etc etc etc comes from?

 

[Changes]

A very good question!I think the answer ,and also the answer to so many problems in racing and rehoming thoroughbreds is that the TB stud Book was closed far to early .I am sure breeding gurus will leap in here ,but I think it was only about 40 years ago. The result is that while we have been selectively breeding from stalions fast over a short distance (and speed is effectively directly related to poor conformation for strength )we have been depleting a gene pool of variation . The gene pool was pretty sparse to start with. When you look at those big old chasers of the 1920,s remember that a lot of them would now be barred from racing as their breeding would not be considered pure TB.

There are two studbooks though, the pure TB book and the NTR. If you have a foal by a sire and dam already on the NTR, it can race.

Unfortunately though, I think you'd need to dilute back down to the TB to get the speed to race successfully against the current pure-bred TBs being raced. Certainly on the flat.
A few of the French bred jumps horses have Anglo Arab in their breeding, in France they run XC races purely for AA horses, and you would never tell the difference between them and pure bred TBs by looking at them. They do seem to have some longevity to them as well.

 

[BeBopTalulah]

A very good question!I think the answer ,and also the answer to so many problems in racing and rehoming thoroughbreds is that the TB stud Book was closed far to early .I am sure breeding gurus will leap in here ,but I think it was only about 40 years ago. The result is that while we have been selectively breeding from stalions fast over a short distance (and speed is effectively directly related to poor conformation for strength )we have been depleting a gene pool of variation . The gene pool was pretty sparse to start with. When you look at those big old chasers of the 1920,s remember that a lot of them would now be barred from racing as their breeding would not be considered pure TB.

That's very interesting. Do you think that this is a bad thing? What you're saying is, that fewer of the TBs racing today are fit/built for other disciplines? Another question, and yes an ignorant one at that - Is a racing TB only judged on it's speed/ability to jump fences at speed? Ie, is there any consideration for conformation etc.?

 

[Miss L Toe]

When a trainer or bloodstock agent pays a fair bit of money for a horse, he is looking at conformation, an unsound horse is useless, it costs about £10K to £20K per annum to keep a racehorse horse in training, and it would take more effort to keep poor specimens sound than good ones
Most racehorse owners will have their horses vetted before parting with large wads of cash, so they should be sound.
Stallion descriptions: conformation and soundness will be mentioned as well as his potential to breed successful progeny.
People do send mares to horses which have been retired following a breakdown, but one would have to be very confident that the trait was not heritable.
Flat bred horses are usually bred for speed, but not at the exclusion of all other characteristics, they need to be able to run for at least five furlongs, and be reasonably put together, if not they will be difficult to sell, just like poor specimens of all breeds, more so, because the potential purchasers tend to know what they are looking for.
Jump types are usually bigger and stronger, and typically run over 2 miles to four miles, they have to be both fit and sound to do this.
As for gene pools, there is lots of line breeding in all breeds, and sometimes out-crosses are used to get "hybrid vigour", but that usually means using stallions which are not from fashionable families.
We are led to believe that only three stallions contributed to the original TB gene pool, but in those days things were not quite as controlled as today.
I am no statistician, but almost every country in the world has TB stallions at stud, unlike any other breed I can think of, so it has to be for economic reasons, that is to say, they are popular, for racing and eventing, whether pure-bred or for crossing, so they must have some desirable traits!

 

[Mike007]

That's very interesting. Do you think that this is a bad thing? What you're saying is, that fewer of the TBs racing today are fit/built for other disciplines? Another question, and yes an ignorant one at that - Is a racing TB only judged on it's speed/ability to jump fences at speed? Ie, is there any consideration for conformation etc.?

Since the money in racing is from breeding potential ,and steeplechasing is prettywell all geldings and a few mares,I dont think the ability to jump fences at speed even enters into the equation. My understanding is that as a stalion matures it becomes a lot heavier and this prettywell restricts its competetive racing to running as a two or three year old. If they look like being too big and slow ,gelding might give them a career in jumping ,but the weakness that makes them fast on the flat remains a problem. The length of the pastern is important for speed but it increases the strain on the tendons.

 

[Changes]

Jump horses are mostly bred from flat stallions. And I slightly disagree about buying for confo - there are plenty of small breeders who believe pedigree is all and will put a crap mare to a good stallion in the hope it will 'improve' the foal.

That doesn't happen, and these are the breeders who should be restricted.

Mares should not be bred from unless they have won themselves, or there is enough black type in the immediate pedigree to suggest the foal would have ability.

Stallions should all be strictly registered, and there should be an upper limit on the number of covers one entire can do in a season. Horses at the top of the tree having 150 mares is just ridiculous.

I don't think this criteria should be restricted to racing either, a similar performance/pedigree/confo appraisal should exist for all disciplines of equine sport. Although how you police breeding industries that flog AI liberally and don't demand DNA testing and natural covering god knows.

And then you have the ponies bred on the hills and the moors, and herds of coloureds being bred in p ikey land - they should be controlled too.

Racing pretty much does have it's house in order as far as taking responsibility for recording the animals being born for and entering their industry. Until the rest of the equestrian world does the same, the wastage rates cannot be compared.

 

[fburton]

And from these millions of pounds, how much goes into retiring these horses? 200 horses are rehabilitated each year at the expense of the racing industry, out of 10,000 -15,000 foals bred for racing. Is that a fair deal?

I'd be interested to know the true figures because I have a personal stake in TB rehabilitation, having paid £7.50 every month to TRC in Lancashire for the last 11 or so years and intend to continue doing so unless there are compelling reasons to stop. I'm glad to hear that the Industry is channeling money into retiring horses now - I remember watching a BBC documentary in the 1980s in which a Jockey Club representative was forced to admit rather shamefacedly that they paid nothing towards this. So obviously things have changed since then. Even so, 200 doesn't sound an awful lot, considering there is still a need for charities like the TRC.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Some stallions get favoured for breeding NH horses by results, Saddlers Wells was renowned for good horses on the flat, but a Saddlers Wells horse over jumps on good to soft, was always a good bet.
It takes so long to breed and train, that the stallion will generally be 13 years of age before his progeny are proven over fences
From another forum: ..........." So much is down to personal preference. mine, in order of importance, would be to patronise a stallion that was sound, then one that had good bone, and finally one with a high-class flat record at between 10 and 12 furlongs............"

 

[Mike007]

When a trainer or bloodstock agent pays a fair bit of money for a horse, he is looking at conformation, an unsound horse is useless, it costs about £10K to £20K per annum to keep a racehorse horse in training, and it would take more effort to keep poor specimens sound than good ones
Most racehorse owners will have their horses vetted before parting with large wads of cash, so they should be sound.
Stallion descriptions: conformation and soundness will be mentioned as well as his potential to breed successful progeny.
People do send mares to horses which have been retired following a breakdown, but one would have to be very confident that the trait was not heritable.
Flat bred horses are usually bred for speed, but not at the exclusion of all other characteristics, they need to be able to run for at least five furlongs, and be reasonably put together, if not they will be difficult to sell, just like poor specimens of all breeds, more so, because the potential purchasers tend to know what they are looking for.
Jump types are usually bigger and stronger, and typically run over 2 miles to four miles, they have to be both fit and sound to do this.
As for gene pools, there is lots of line breeding in all breeds, and sometimes out-crosses are used to get "hybrid vigour", but that usually means using stallions which are not from fashionable families.
We are led to believe that only three stallions contributed to the original TB gene pool, but in those days things were not quite as controlled as today.
I am no statistician, but almost every country in the world has TB stallions at stud, unlike any other breed I can think of, so it has to be for economic reasons, that is to say, they are popular, for racing and eventing, whether pure-bred or for crossing, so they must have some desirable traits!

I must disagree with some of your points. It is all well and good vetting and looking for good conformation ,but the problem is that what constitutes good conformation for a flat racer is effectively a weakness in the leg and has been bred into the TB. As for hybrid vigour ,unfortunately I suspect there is precious little of that because as I mentioned ,the stud book was closed too early in the development of the TB and there is just too little genetic variation for this to truely apply. Try crossing a TB with an Arab and then you will see some real hybrid vigour.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I'd be interested to know the true figures because I have a personal stake in TB rehabilitation, having paid £7.50 every month to TRC in Lancashire for the last 11 or so years and intend to continue doing so unless there are compelling reasons to stop. I'm glad to hear that the Industry is channeling money into retiring horses now - I remember watching a BBC documentary in the 1980s in which a Jockey Club representative was forced to admit rather shamefacedly that they paid nothing towards this. So obviously things have changed since then. Even so, 200 doesn't sound an awful lot, considering there is still a need for charities like the TRC.

I don't know the exact number, but certainly not ten thousand in the UK.
At one time it was thought that only a third of those bred for racing ever got on the racecourse, but that was when people had Tb's for hunting and show-jumping, ladies had hacks, and TBs were also popular for showing and dressage.
The fact is that there are specialist breeds which are more fashionable, for example, Dutch Warmbloods, which I see being ridden by enthusiastic teenagers in local riding events. They would be bred to jump huge courses, so have no problems picking up a few ribbons in local shows.
The breeding operations run by two of the big operations in the UK and Ireland encourage excess breeding, and unfortunately we still see people who buy a mare with the intention of breeding if it breaks down!!!, this is not an industry problem more individual greed or ignorance.

 

[Changes]

Some stallions get favoured for breeding NH horses by results, Saddlers Wells was renowned for good horses on the flat, but a Saddlers Wells horse over jumps on good to soft, was always a good bet.
It takes so long to breed and train, that the stallion will generally be 13 years of age before his progeny are proven over fences
From another forum: ..........." So much is down to personal preference. mine, in order of importance, would be to patronise a stallion that was sound, then one that had good bone, and finally one with a high-class flat record at between 10 and 12 furlongs............"

I agree totally with that quote from the other forum. That would be my criteria for a jumps stallion.

I might not have made myself clear, there are only a handful of standing stallions that ran over hurdles/fences, and they are/were poorly enough patronised to have little or no impact on the gene pool. I can only think off the top of my head of three of them - Nomadic Way, Alderbrook and Kadastrof.

Sadlers Wells was a flat stallion, he was priced way too high to cover as a NH sire. The horses of his that ran over timber were flat horses that weren't good enough to retire to stud/continue on the flat so were gelded.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I must disagree with some of your points. It is all well and good vetting and looking for good conformation ,but the problem is that what constitutes good conformation for a flat racer is effectively a weakness in the leg and has been bred into the TB. As for hybrid vigour ,unfortunately I suspect there is precious little of that because as I mentioned ,the stud book was closed too early in the development of the TB and there is just too little genetic variation for this to truely apply. Try crossing a TB with an Arab and then you will see some real hybrid vigour.

You will remember that the Godolphin Arab was one of three founding stallions, as to closing the book too early, it was open for hundreds of years, unlike most of our natives.
I have been involved in unlicenced [legal] racing [any horse can enter], they were all TB's, so they obviously are faster than other breeds.
I see we will not agree on this, I judge all horses on my experience with TB's, and this includes native ponies and KWNP s
I look four good legs, the front ones are the most important and most subject to flaws.
The worse type of TB is big bodied and has spindly legs, I really can't imagine they would go fast at any stage of their career.
We went to Newmarket pin hooking sales a few years ago, with a view to buy a breeze up type, so we looked for something precocious with flat knees, but the bone, ie the diameter of the canon bone had to be in proportion to its body weight.
We inspected all the yearlings from less than fashionable stallions,[due to our limited budget], and they were all sound types, I appreciate this was a top sale, but I did not see anything which did looked as though it would break a leg when it cantered.