Grooming/Bathing Help

[Dusty M Yeti]

Have had dogs for many years but always long legged and smooth coated greyhounds and lurchers with very limited coat maintenance needed and far enough off the floor not to attract the mud! However a year ago and small and scruffy JR x Patterdale entered my life (I rehomed her from a friend who's relationship had broken up). She is a super little dog and such a character but I find her coat a nightmare to deal with. She is long coated but I wouldn't describe it as wirey or rough because the hair is extremely fine and soft, she doesn't seem to have any short undercoat either. Obviously, being closer to the ground than I am used to, she also gets covered in mud (we live down a rural single track, the 3rd of 4 farms on the road, so no clean pavement walking available, bridleways and farm tracks are wet and muddy).

Now we are into winter she is dirty/muddy most of the time, her long coat goes into rat-tails/dreadlocks. I try to keep on top of this with regular grooming, which she tolerates but grumbles under her breath I think it pulls at her coat which she doesn't like! Really the only thing that restores cleanliness is a bath, she is good to bath, but this only lasts until her next walk and I don't want to bath her every day!!

So questions: Are there any really good detangling shampoos that will help her coat stay dreadlock free for more than a day? How often should a dog be bathed - does it upset their coat/skin if done too often? Any grooming brushes that won't pull her coat but will remove mud and clumps? Any other advice/hints or tips for scruffy terrier coat maintenance?

I should add that I like the scruffy look but would be open to clipping if no other options available, however, I wouldn't want her to look clipped (if that makes sense ) do any of you have dogs clipped but not in show cuts?

Wanted to add gratuitous pics (informative too, to show her coat) but photobucket not playing! There is a cute photo of her in my profile though, although it doesn't really show her coat type

 

[Dusty M Yeti]

Close up of coat.


This is actually relatively clean!


Dreadlocked look

 

[GirlFriday]

Interested to hear the results of this! I have something not dissimilar (who additionally doesn't wash his boy bits - see other thread just below!) who is, like yours, good to bath (I just shower off with water mostly).

But I've just acquired trimmers... I'm thinking to try to take off/shorten the underside leaving the full length on top (which is usually clean-ish, I don't need to shower it off every time I do feet/belly) so he still looks similar from most angles - but any tips for clipping and/or conditioning much appreciated!

Edited to add: I do know someone locally who trims 'socks' into theirs for winter which looks incredibly practical, but also really silly. So, I'm thinking of sort of a rectangle area on the tummy and try to blend it in to the longer fur at the sides?

 

[s4sugar]

That coat would handstrip - means plucking out the dead longer hairs.
Get someone to show you how it's done or find a groomer familiar with stripped breeds. It doesn't hurt if done correctly.
Clipping will make the coat softer & more likely to knot.
Mutneys do a good conditioning shampoo but no shampoo stops tangles if the dog does rooting in the undergrowth.

 

[AmyMay]

Different breed, but nightmare coat if long in the winter (bichon). I keep her trimmed short and to be honest she has a belly and leg wash most days (mild, diluted shampoo). I try not to fully bath too often, but she's also a lover of Fox poo!

 

[planete]

if you need to wash the dog often I would use water only most of the time to avoid stripping the coat of all grease and drying up the skin. We used to leave our border collie in a deep straw bed for an hour or so after being out. He dried, the mud fell off and he was then allowed in. This happened twice a day and we were not into washing farm dogs!

 

[quagga]

I end up washing my spaniels off at least once a day at this time of year. Only takes 30 seconds, just take them straight into the shower when we get in and wash legs and belly (water only, no shampoo). Tempted by a lab next time cos I'm bored of the washing !!

 

[PucciNPoni]

I agree with s4sugar, strip it out and when the coat returns it should be much easier to keep clean. With a harsh coat, you allow them to dry and the dirt just falls off. Much easier.

 

[GirlFriday]

As far as I've read hand stripping is usually recommended for the top, wiry coat of animals with both long and short coats so not applicable here. (And it involves pulling out hairs from the roots which, sorry, is going to hurt the dog all over. Maybe more similar to epilating than waxing... But not comfortable or, imho, a particularly sane thing to inflict on an animal)

 

[twiggy2]

I would clip her, the coat looks more Yorkshire terrier than Patterdale or Jack russel and it looks soft like you say

 

[s4sugar]

As far as I've read hand stripping is usually recommended for the top, wiry coat of animals with both long and short coats so not applicable here. (And it involves pulling out hairs from the roots which, sorry, is going to hurt the dog all over. Maybe more similar to epilating than waxing... But not comfortable or, imho, a particularly sane thing to inflict on an animal)

You only pluck the hairs that come out easily and while holding the skin taut. It does take training and is used on wire, harsh & spaniel coats as well as mixed coats like the OP.
This dog shows all the signs of a strippable coat from the pictures and I often have dogs fall asleep on the table whilst being stripped.
By removing the dead hair from the follicle the coat stays in better condition.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

DMY, like you have always had large breeds etc, but last Jan got a rescue Shih.
I've found the best way with her is clipping every 2 months (she loves grooming lady).
I keep towels in car and at work - she gets a good rub down after each walk, so am using at least 3 or 4 rubbing down sessions daily.
At the yard, she will happily rummage in hay barn, so dries off there more quickly.
She only gets a bath if stinky, so prob only once a month


Nothing worse than a happy Shih that has spent a glorious hour or more digging in mole hills, then rummaging in foggage grass - looks like a right urchin

 

[Sarah_K]

Obie is a crossbreed (Bichon x). His coat is prone to matting and tangling, especially when it's wet and muddy outside. He needs brushing everyday and usually he needs his legs and belly washing off after a walk. I got him clipped in September after I'd been in hospital for a few days and no one had time to give him a brush. It's so much easier. Much as I love the scruffy long look, it's just not practical. He gets a same length clip all over apart from his tail which never tangles for some reason. Doesn't look like a show dog clip, looks like his normal coat length after a couple of days.

Before being clipped:

After:

A couple of weeks after his last clip:

Apologies for the mahoosive pics- I resized them and they're still huge!

ETA: I do use a detangler spray, I'm not keen on the smell. It's lavender and reminds me of the sort of smell that old ladies would douse themselves in . It works on little tangles but stands no chance against the horrors of what Obie rolls around in.

 

[AmyMay]

Obie is just too cool for school! Daisy thinks he should come to live with us!!

 

[Honey08]

I could have written this! Our latest dog has a very similar coat and issues, made even worse by the fact that she had grass and other allergies, so rolls around and itches sometimes, causing more knots, and meaning that her skin is quite sensitive so I feel bad pulling at knots with a comb. She's also a nervous rescue, so I haven't inflicted a groomer on her yet. I'm also used to low maintenance labs!

Last spring she got so knotted that I had to cut a lot of the dreadlocks off and seriously trim her cost, but I hated the way she looked, and think she needs some coat length for protection from the grass and for warmth. So now I just about keep on top of it with a weekly bath in baby shampoo (vets suggestion for her allergies) and I have occasionally used a mild conditioner on her back end, where she gets most knots. Inbetween baths I can gently comb the worst of the knots out. There are some knots, lower down on her legs or bottom area that I've had to slightly cut off or into to brush out. She wears a waterproof rug in bad weather (easier to wash mud off that than her!), and we don't have too much issue with muddy legs as we try and keep her off grass 90% of the time (she has to have some mad hurtles round with the others from time to time).

 

[PucciNPoni]

As far as I've read hand stripping is usually recommended for the top, wiry coat of animals with both long and short coats so not applicable here. (And it involves pulling out hairs from the roots which, sorry, is going to hurt the dog all over. Maybe more similar to epilating than waxing... But not comfortable or, imho, a particularly sane thing to inflict on an animal)

ThursdayNext are you a groomer? I am. I do LOTS of stripping on many breeds not just wiry coated terriers. Gundogs for example - cockers and setters get hand stripped. Cockers have a silky coat.

Stripping is done on coat that is ready to come out and will generally be replaced by new harsh coat in terriers, and when it does it is better coat all over.

Recently I had a Cairn in that was supposedly stripped but I could see it wasn't being done correctly. I was not sure I could rejuvenate it back to stripping condition, however I pulled some of the softer stuff away and voila! new harsh coat coming back three months later.

Stripping a terrier who's coat is coming in soft is harder work and without the benefit of rolling (ie doing a little each week for example) then going to the groomer for an all over strip will be more uncomfortable the first time. But please believe me that stripping out a terrier or gun dog will not be cruel or painful if done correctly and in the right time.

Rule of thumb, if it doesn't come out it's not ready.

I appreciate your concern for a dog's welfare, but it's possible that this dog will benefit in the long run if the coat comes in harsh.

 

[Peter7917]

Id clip the lot off all year round

 

[GirlFriday]

ThursdayNext are you a groomer?

No, no. My background is scientific and I've posted on here asking for help too

Disregarding our slightly different views on pulling out hair by the roots (even 'ready' hair which I do get is different, although not really sure how that works with dogs - I've done it with various fluffies that have a distinct moulting time/line but then it is really clear and sometimes makes them more comfy when out) I'm not sure how you expect it to change the texture of the coat?

The fur grows from the roots the same no matter what is on the outside so it must be something about the damage to the roots that makes it grow back different - which is odd because in humans plucking weakens roots and you end up with thinner hair after many years, not thicker. Do you know how the plucking changes the regrowth?

 

[Dusty M Yeti]

Thanks for all the replies

Pucci and s4sugar - had never considered hand stripping (Google was v. helpful!) I can't see atm that she has an undercoat but at 3yrs and having never been to a groomer would her softer longer top coat obscure it? I guess a visit to a professional groomer might be the answer, a lot of the salons round here seem to advertise posh fluffy pooches (which she definitely isn't) maybe I need to find somebody a bit more 'old school' to do this?

I'd say on average I bath her fully once a month, hose and towel after every walk and brush 3 or 4 times a week, high maintenance compared to dogs I've had before! Getting rid of the long hair in some way will definitely make life easier for both of us

Sarah k - I can't believe the difference in the before and after pics. Your right it doesn't look like a show clip and if I go down the clipping route it would be exactly what I was looking for!

 

[GirlFriday]

The longer coat is usually the not-soft bit if you see what I mean.

Be really interested in the results if you go down the stripping route as really cannot see how pulling hair out would make it grow back more wiry - but open to finding out it does!

 

[PucciNPoni]

when you cut a coat which might be stripped, you are in effect emptying the hair follicle which makes room for a new hair to come through. But when you clip it, you're leaving part of that hair, the root, in the follicle. What comes after that is thinner and wispy.

Here's a nice wee article by Barbara Bird who has been a good source of wee blogs for new and would be groomers.

http://groomwise.typepad.com/bbird/2015/01/handstripping-considerations.html

 

[Clodagh]

An unscientific post from me. M-in-law has border terriers, which she hand strips. They show a lot less discomfort than a horse having it's mane pulled. They sit in the garden on a warm day and she does a bit at a time, she does scissor their undercarriage whereas a goormer strips that too.
She has had a dog clipped in the past and it's coat never came back the same, it made no sense to me but it really did never recover.
I think although most groomers use posh dogs for their ads, all the ones I have met have been very normal people and would be able to advise OP on the best way to maintain her dog's coat. Paying for a dog to be stripped is expensive, as it is very time consuming, a decent groomer will recommend what is best for your dog. Ask the next posh dog's owner you see on a walk to recommend someone!

 

[GirlFriday]

when you cut a coat which might be stripped, you are in effect emptying the hair follicle which makes room for a new hair to come through. But when you clip it, you're leaving part of that hair, the root, in the follicle. What comes after that is thinner and wispy.

Here's a nice wee article by Barbara Bird who has been a good source of wee blogs for new and would be groomers.

http://groomwise.typepad.com/bbird/2015/01/handstripping-considerations.html

Hmmm. Article makes it quite clear that it is uncomfortable for many and painful for some - beseeching eyes?!? :-(

Your theory on why the regrowth is thicker is interesting - means you have to take out the majority of the coat though! - we have just one hair, and it's replacement per follicle but dogs have many (and chinchillas have something like 90!) so taking all but one, or even all out is quite significant.

 

[PucciNPoni]

Hmmm. Article makes it quite clear that it is uncomfortable for many and painful for some - beseeching eyes?!? :-(

Your theory on why the regrowth is thicker is interesting - means you have to take out the majority of the coat though! - we have just one hair, and it's replacement per follicle but dogs have many (and chinchillas have something like 90!) so taking all but one, or even all out is quite significant.

Yes it is painful for SOME - and a good groomer will NOT strip those hairs, or in fact on those dogs.

Like Clodagh says, some areas are just a no go for some dogs, and personally I won't strip groins and sensitive areas. Some dogs can't cope with the ears. Some will be fine with that. It's down to the individual dog. Many dogs get comfy and just fall asleep til I need to roll them over for the other side.

There are different techniques of stripping and will vary from breed to breed and case by case. You can roll the coat which is taking roughly 1/3 of the top coat, but you always leave the undercoat in tact. You can do a pet strip where you leave all the undercoat but take all the top coat, like you would with a border terrier which comes twice a year and the coat is blowing. You can do what they do on schnauzers (and I don't do them commercially) but you take it down to the skin. That I don't particularly like, but it does make the jacket very harsh which is what they need for a show ring finish, once it grows back in of course.

However a pet dog that comes to me that has some promise of a good coat, I would assess the coat, the temperament, the lifestyle, what the owner would tolerate in terms of how often they want to brush it. In the end the dog ALWAYS gets a choice and if they are unhappy with the process then I would not force hanstripping. But having said that, I do a LOT of handstrips and I also do some dogs which won't tolerate a full strip but I do something called carding and clipping - will basically roll the coat and then scrape the jacket to take some of the undercoat fluff as well. Bath and clip. This is a happy medium between stripping and clipping and will improve texture over time but does not irritate the dog as much if they are sensitive.

 

[Dusty M Yeti]

Clodagh - that was exactly my view 're mane pulling on horses, I pull my horses manes and they tolerate it! I do little and often and it keeps a good length and finish.

Pucci - thanks for sharing your knowledge I will take her to a local groomer and seek their opinion on the best way forward. I would like a long-term solution and if the coat can be stripped and she tolerates it then all good. I would also be open to learning the skill myself as I hope to have her a long time yet!

Thursday Next - I will keep this updated once I get an opinion, probably be the new year now before anything gets done

Thanks all

 

[PucciNPoni]

Will look forward to hearing what your groomer has to say after assessment. Though I wouldn't expect to get near one before Christmas

 

[CorvusCorax]

Should no dog should ever have to go through/tolerate a little stress/discomfort, even if it's for their own good? I think thats unrealistic and actually unfair on a dog in the long run.

 

[GirlFriday]

Should no dog should ever have to go through/tolerate a little stress/discomfort, even if it's for their own good? I think thats unrealistic and actually unfair on a dog in the long run.

In what way is this for their own good?!? My mutt is happy muddy/mucky/being showered and LOVES being brushed. Pulling his fur out by the roots becasue I think it looks pretty/hope he won't get as muddy is purely for my benefit.

 

[PucciNPoni]

Should no dog should ever have to go through/tolerate a little stress/discomfort, even if it's for their own good? I think thats unrealistic and actually unfair on a dog in the long run.

I'm not sure whether you are contradicting yourself or not here. (Sorry, my brain hasn't wakened fully).

Yes, to a degree sometimes a dog must go through a little discomfort for their own good; ie jabs, blood work, brushing and bathing, even training! But as a groomer, in our own minds we have a limit of what we are willing to do and to what extend when handling an individual. If a dog truly seems pained or distressed by something that I'm doing I just change the approach. But if it's just being a brat because it got away with being a brat before and what I'm doing (ie nail clipping for example) then I just carry on as if the dog is standing quietly. They usually learn that throwing a tantrum doesn't work with me.

 

[PucciNPoni]

In what way is this for their own good?!? My mutt is happy muddy/mucky/being showered and LOVES being brushed. Pulling his fur out by the roots becasue I think it looks pretty/hope he won't get as muddy is purely for my benefit.

Grooming is more than "looking pretty" and not being muddy. There are many health benefits to grooming and in fact encouraging a correct coat type.