GSD experts

[Laura2408]

I know there are a few of you here!

I'm considering looking for a puppy after the loss of my dog.

I am an experienced shepherd owner but have never bought a dog before. I don't want a rescue this time for many reasons.

I've found a litter that seems sort of what I'm looking for but I'm not sure if the sire is too sloping for want of a better word and wondered if I pmd the details if anyone could take a look for me?

I don't really mind looks that much (except no white) but I really need to find a dog with an a1 temperament with no issues with nervousness in the lines. I do not want a fast paced working dog as I've been there and done that but more of a pet line if anyone knows of anything. I also hate the severe angular backs that some have and would prefer a more level dog. I would love a black one so bonus points for that!

 

[MurphysMinder]

You're welcome to pm the details to me The most important things are character and health tests , as you say, looks are secondary in importance.

 

[Moobli]

I wouldn't call myself an expert, but have owned the breed for the past 25 years and am happy to help if I can. PM me the details of the litter and, more importantly, contact the GSD Breed Health Coordinator who will check any litter pedigree. She holds records on any health issue within lines (going back generations). Of course this relies on being informed of issues, but it really is a worthwhile exercise. Last time I contacted Chris she only asked for a £5 donation to the GSD breed rescue of her choice as payment for researching the lines. She is also a very lovely lady and extremely knowledgeable. I will PM you her details.

 

[Moobli]

You're welcome to pm the details to me The most important things are character and health tests , as you say, looks are secondary in importance.

I agree to an extent but GSDs are not few in number and I would far rather wait for the right litter who have excellent health, temperament AND who are of the type/colour/conformation/drive that I am looking for.

 

[Moobli]

I wrote this article for one of the GSD FB groups and hope it might be of help (sorry it is so long) ...

With thousands of German Shepherds ending up in rescue or worse it's essential that in the first instance you consider what type of German Shepherd you want and whether it suits your lifestyle. GSDs come in various types ie show line, working line, mixed lines, pet lines and with different drives - high drive, low drive, exuberant youth or sensible mature dog, and length of coat, gender etc. All have different needs and making the right choice leads to you having a wonderful addition to your family.
Equally trying to fit the wrong type into your household will end in tears so it's worth spending some time researching each type. Honestly assess your own knowledge, experience and available time and commitment to ensure a successful partnership. Having done your research into the type of German Shepherd you want, next you need to find your dog.
SOURCING YOUR DOG OR PUPPY.
Options:
Rehoming (generally referred to as 'rescue')
Buying a puppy
Buying a young or adult dog
Each option has its pros and cons. When buying a puppy or an older dog from a breeder it's important to know that you aren't supporting an unethical breeder with your money. This gives you the best chance of a healthy puppy with a good temperament. Anyone who breeds a litter of puppies is a breeder and just because the bitch is a pet is no safeguard that she hasn't bred an unreasonable number of litters. There are often horribly over-bred, exhausted bitches in rescue because they have passed their usefulness. Puppy farmers come in many guises and shouldn't be supported. Many of those cute puppies bred by unethical breeders end up in rescue.

1. DOG RESCUE ORGANISATIONS.
There are breed specific rescues and general rescues. Any good rescue should have staff who are capable of carefully assessing any dog, although some would argue that a breed specific rescue is obviously more familiar with specific breed traits.
Good rescues carefully assess dogs and potential adopters to ensure a successful match. They will carry out a home check and offer advice and support. They will also take the dog back if things go wrong. Less good rescues will encourage you to take a dog without any checks and offer little or no back up.
Research the rescue. Their website should tell you of their criteria before you complete an application so you can avoid wasting each other's time if you don't meet it. Some have blanket policies that seem disheartening but may be negotiable if you speak to them in person, particularly the smaller ones.
There are every kind of German Shepherd dog in rescue. Contrary to popular belief they do not all have issues. These days many excellent and well trained family companions are victims of landlord policies, unemployment, changes in circumstances or death of owner. Many are discarded because a new baby/ partner is coming, or because at six months old they aren't as cute as they were at eight weeks old. Many have lived with and loved children, cats or other dogs. Equally if you prefer a challenge and are experienced with German Shepherds there will be one in rescue that will fill that need, just as there is one who will fit into your active lifestyle or your sedentary lifestyle. Long coat, standard coat, semi coat, every shape, age and colour are in rescue. Please think about offering a home to an unwanted German Shepherd. There are so many in need. It is such a rewarding experience, provided you choose the right dog and a good rescue will help with that choice.

2. BUYING FROM A BREEDER.
Without wishing to frighten you off the breed you should know that the GSD has a long list of hereditary conditions and relying on a breeder telling you that they own both parents as lovely pets and they are healthy leaves you open to massive financial cost and heartbreak through the years. You might be lucky or you might not. Our aim is to help you to avoid the many pitfalls in buying a German Shepherd puppy. There are no health guarantees in life but you can stack the odds in your favour by carefully selecting your breeder. Research is of paramount importance. The list at the end of this section details hereditary conditions in the GSD. The following link lists the health initiatives in the breed that are being undertaken by The German Shepherd Breed Council. The current Breed Health Co-ordinator is Chris Hazell (c.hazell@tiscali.co.uk) who might be able to advise on health queries in the pedigree of your chosen pup and should be the first port of call for anyone who has a particular litter in mind.
http://www.gsdbreedcouncil.co.uk/…/h…/health_initiatives.htm
Minimum health checks you should expect from a breeder. Hip/Elbow Scores and Haemophilia.
Ethical breeders do all they can to prevent hereditary conditions from being passed on to their puppies. They ensure their dogs are fully health checked before breeding them. Not only that, they ensure that several generations of the dog's ancestors are health checked. If a breeding dog does not have certified health checks in place ask yourself why not? Many of these conditions don't reveal themselves until later in life so a dog that looks healthy can be carrying the genetic code that makes your puppy a health time-bomb.
Hip and elbow dysplasia are crippling joint diseases that are rife in the breed. Breeding animals should be screened and have good scores. Hip scoring is explained in the next link and there is a similar process for elbow scoring. Hip and elbow conditions can be extremely painful and cost thousands of pounds to treat.
The article linked here explains about hip scoring in the UK. It is from 2012 so remember that the breed average scores change from year to year as different numbers of dogs are screened and registered.
https://www.bva.co.uk/Canine-Health-Schemes/Hip-Scheme/
https://www.bva.co.uk/…/Cani…/chs-hip-dysplasia-feb-2014.pdf
Don't be persuaded by any breeder who says hip and elbows scores are unnecessary.
All breeding males should be certified Haemophilia clear.
The link explains why this is so important.
http://www.gsdbreedcouncil.co.uk/bimp/haemo/haemo.htm
These really are the minimum in health tests that a responsible ethical breeder will provide. Some go above and beyond with tests that will hopefully prevent the heartache of inherited disorders such as Degenerative Myelopathy, the nervous system degenerative disease that causes so many of our beloved breed to lose control of their back legs.
Colour and coat length.
Breeding away from the Kennel Club Standard is a contentious issue that will always cause heated argument amongst GSD owners. However the demand for non-standard (white, blue, liver, panda) German Shepherds is evident so it is useful to consider your options. Non-standard colours do occur naturally but anyone breeding specifically for colour or coat length should be avoided. If you want one of these colours, or a long coated dog it is up to you to research the line's health, which might be difficult if the breeding dogs aren't KC registered. Again, information is key and should direct your choice.
The key issue is that while colour per se does not affect health, breeding for colour does. For example, there are known white lines in the UK that carry the gene for epilepsy so careful study of the pedigree is important. Obviously the same applies to a standard GSD pedigree. Breeders are sometimes not forthcoming about health issues in their lines. As mentioned earlier the German Shepherd Breed Health Co-ordinator might be able to check specific lines for known genetic issues for a small fee (£5 to GSD Rescue).
Other health issues and breeder assessment information
This is a very useful and informative article from an excellent site about breeder assessment and covers most of the other commonly occurring conditions in the breed, some of which can be screened for, others as yet have no screening available:
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/german-shepherd-dog-alsatian/
It is worth downloading and reading 'The Puppy Contract' that is linked in the article. It gives lots of detail about the information you should know about the litter. It is worth perusing the whole site which contains a mine of information. You can search for health screening results on: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/f…/published-health-results/
It is not unknown for unscrupulous breeders to claim that dogs are health screened when they are not.
Many breeders place endorsements on their litters. These are to protect their breeding reputation and the quality of their breeding program. You can read more about endorsements and how they might affect you here.
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf
Additional useful guides are available here:
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8273/health.pdf
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/…/4519…/breeding_health.pdf
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8199/choosing.pdf

Continued ...

 

[Moobli]

Part 2

Questions to Ask When Choosing Your Puppy
Ask to see the litter's sire and dam. (In many cases you will only see the dam. The sire usually belongs to someone else.)
Things to look for:
* Temperament of the parents
* Health and happiness of the dogs (and any possible flaws)
* How many litters are produced in a year
* Are the pups on site (if not, where were they raised)
* Type and cleanliness of kennels
* Breeder interaction with the dogs (both in and out of the kennel)
* How much interaction and socialisation the pups have experienced
* The amount of time the dogs are in the kennel
* Whether or not the dogs are allowed into the breeder’s house
* Breed clubs the breeder is associated with
* Whether the parents are competitively shown or worked (and any titles they have received)
* How long has the breeder been in the German Shepherd breed.
What to ask to view:
* Proof of health tests
* Pedigree of both parents
Things to ask:
* Is there any kind of contract between the puppy owner and breeder
* What happens if the puppy dies or has to be euthanised due to illness or disease
* Are there endorsements placed on the pedigree
* Is there a return policy
* Is it possible to speak to past puppy buyers
* Does the breeder still talk regularly with any previous buyers
* Determine whether the breeder will help in choosing your puppy
* Find out when the pups will be ready for placement and how old they will be at the time
* It is now the breeder’s responsibility to microchip all puppies prior to them going to their new homes
* Will you be notified if a littermate develops an unexpected temperament or health disorder.

Not all of these questions will apply to every situation. But, it will give you a good idea of what important things to look for when seeking your new best friend.

Take time in choosing your puppy. This is an important and long term decision. So don't rush this step. You (and your new puppy) will be much happier in the long run.

3. BUYING A YOUNG OR ADULT DOG.
There are two options for buying a dog after the puppy stage. One is from a breeder, the second from media advertising, ie freeads, on-line, newspaper, ad board in shop etc.
Some breeders have older pups or dogs available for various reasons. Do check out those reasons and the 'buying from a breeder guide' still applies.
• Sometimes they 'run on' a dog to see how it develops with a view to showing, competing or breeding. If the dog isn't going to make the grade they will sell to a pet home. These dogs can make great companions.
• A good breeder will always take a dog back if things don't work out and these may then be offered for sale as pets. You should get the dog's full history.
• The dog or bitch may no longer be useful to their breeding program so will be sold on to a pet home.
There are thousands of dogs being sold via the free ads, Gumtree, Facebook etc. Some sellers are genuinely looking for a home for their beloved dog through a change in circumstances while others have lost interest / want extra money / can't cope with behavioural issues/ didn't think the puppy would grow so big /are selling stolen dogs. You pay your money and take your chance.
Do as much careful investigation as you can. Many people are rejected by the rescue organisations due to blanket policies so choose to buy from these sources. Really it's a case of buyer beware, be very cautious as you will have no back-up or come back should things go wrong and it is unfair to 'recycle' the dog. Many of these dogs get passed around developing an ever increasing barrage of behaviour problems. Equally many people find their ideal companion in the free ads.

 

[Laura2408]

Thankyou all. Really interesting reading!


My dream would be a long coat black bitch but I've heard there are issues with temperament in lines bred for colour so I'm open to anything that is leaning more towards a pet home rather than a high drive working line.

 

[Alec Swan]

You're welcome to pm the details to me The most important things are character and health tests , as you say, looks are secondary in importance.

I'd go along with this except that I'd pay focused attention to the 'looks' from a conformation standpoint. I'd want to see parents that stand square and as you say, not 'sloping'.

Were I to be looking for a GSD pup now, the most important aspect of the search would be the dam and her temperament. I would want to see how she met with strangers and though being defensive of her pups/owner is acceptable, I wouldn't want a pup from a bitch which seems in any way stressed or anxious. Anything but well balanced bitches 'tend' to produce anything but well balanced pups from a temperament standpoint and with large dogs, temperament matters.

After the dam, I'd look at the breeder. So few recognise or are able to properly assess the temperament of their bitch and with a doting eye they either ignore or are unaware of what may prove to be serious flaws. There are knowledgable breeders out there, no question of that, it's just that I rarely pay much heed to what I'm told, when it comes from the person who's trying to sell me something!

Good Luck.

Alec.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I agree to an extent but GSDs are not few in number and I would far rather wait for the right litter who have excellent health, temperament AND who are of the type/colour/conformation/drive that I am looking for.

True but as the OP has said, black long coats are a bit like hens teeth, and some of the lines can have problems. Hopefully the litter she is looking at will fulfill her criteria in all but colour.

 

[CorvusCorax]

You'll find more blacks and black LSHs in working lines. They're not bred for colour per se, the better ones just happen to be that colour.
In your shoes I'd go for something bred for KC Working trials or obedience.
Happy to look at pedigrees.

 

[Laura2408]

Just to update this and thank everyone for your help!

I've found two really lovely breeders who both have the type I'm hoping for, waiting for my first choice to get back to me when her pups and born. Second choice isn't having another litter until winter however I don't mind waiting.

I've also contacted Gsdr on the off chance a rescue does come in that may suit. I would much rather rescue but I think a horse, cat, dog, stranger and small baby friendly dog may be pushing my luck!

I also can't believe the amount of untested unproven GSD that are going for £800-£1000 are people mad?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Good luck Is one of them the breeder you originally pm'd about?
Try GSD Welfare or GSD Rescue Elite if you are considering the rescue route.

 

[Laura2408]

I am still in touch with that breeder MM however I'm not sure if the sire is too show line for me. The breeder is lovely though so I haven't ruled them out!

Second breeder is a working linexshow line litter that may have black lc and the third breeder is a litter of not too exaggerated pet types. Sort of show line without the slope?
All very different but I haven't committed to any of them yet!

In an ideal world I would rescue as I have never bought a dog and the thought of spending £1000 is a bit scary however I have a young son and I'm a bit worried about a dog I don't 'know' very well!

 

[Moobli]

Glad you have a few options and good luck with whatever you decide.

Keep us posted.