hacking problems

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madeleine1

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sorry about this sorry but im really struggling.

i have just brought a new horse ive had her about 2 months and i she been home for 5 weeks. we hacked out cross of the road in the first week and it was a desaster so i left it a couple of weeks and just hacked her down the lane next the house so we didnt cross the road.

today i tried to hack across the road again without success. i asked my brother to walk out with me (he can ride really well and im no novice). when riding across the road we have to walk down the drive then along the layby with is beside the dual carriage way then we cross the carriage way waiting in the middle at this point she is alert but not to stressed or fussy. then we walked a round a small patch of trees only about 50m from the road. we the turned back to face home and the horse froze. i asked my brother to help by leading the horse and i tried to move her forward. she then took two steps back and throw herself into the air with all 4 feet of the ground. i stayed on and and while she was trying to bolt forwards my brother kept her still. he then walked her forward (im still on). we walked back to the road and she was still trying to pull my brother home at speed. i was talking to her the whole time trying to relax her. we get to the middle of the road ok. then she waiting a minute. head butted my brother and lifted herself of the ground again and bolted with bro still attached. thankfull no cars at the second. got to the otherside and got her back to walk. walked her home and rode for a minute in the field. then my brother got on (braver then me). and took her out for a hack down the lane(no crossing the carriage way). and then brought her home. brother is planning on hacking her across the carriage way tomorrow night when there is no traffic.

any ideas on how the solve this problem i dont just want to give up. please ask if there is anything i didnt make sence on.
 
take another experienced quiet horse out with her a few times. When you brought her did her old owners say she's good in heavy traffic? If yes then she may just need reassuring from another experienced horse.

Please please be careful, I was at a yard in surrey with a very similar situation duel carriage way wise, whilst I was there two horses died. One was very similar to yours and had gone out fine, came back and spooked at a car infront, ran backwards straight into the path of another, it came down the drive on 3 legs with one missing from the fetlock downwards.
 
yer im scared thats why i was asking as i know it could be really serious.

i will try and take another horse out with her but im not on a livery yard but do u think its worth my brother taking her out tomorrow anyway
 
madeleine1 said:
i have just brought a new horse ive had her about 2 months and i she been home for 5 weeks. we hacked out cross of the road in the first week and it was a desaster so i left it a couple of weeks and just hacked her down the lane next the house so we didnt cross the road.
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I don't often comment on here these days but for what it's worth I think you are rushing things. Is this a national speed limit dual carriageway ie 70mph speed limit? Whatever, crossing any road such as this, even as a pedestrian is inherently dangerous (am a traffic bobby for a living) never mind on something as unpredictable as a horse, any horse no matter how 'bombproof', it's a huge ask.

From her perspective, you are taking her to a very open space with a lot of noise and 'predators' ie vehicles approaching at a speed the like of which she will not have seen before. She will be able to feel the vibration and hear and smell them approaching long, long before you can, I'm not surprised she's panicking.

I appreciate you and your brother may be very experienced but if you have no choice but to use this route, then you are going to have to spend a long time conditioning your new horse and building her trust before even trying to cross.

Because my own young horse is not confident on the roads and naps from time to time I've been looking at the work Michael Peace has done with so-called 'problem' horses. I've been around horses some 40+ years and thought I had them sussed but found what he writes about is both enlightening from the horse's viewpoint and mixed with common sense.

Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, it's not meant to be patronising, I just don't want to hear of one of you being killed, seriously.
 
its 50mph road and ive walked her along side it over and over so she has got used to it and shes fine with it. shes 14 and has been good in traffic at her old homes. the riding school use the road and there are loads of signs up saying horses and the traffic is very good at slowing down. i do understand that its very dangerous but all our comps are across the road and i dont have a trailer so i wanted to hack her the 20 mins the the riding club. any ideas on how to do it slower
 
madeleine1 said:
its 50mph road and ive walked her along side it over and over so she has got used to it and shes fine with it. shes 14 and has been good in traffic at her old homes. the riding school use the road and there are loads of signs up saying horses and the traffic is very good at slowing down. i do understand that its very dangerous but all our comps are across the road and i dont have a trailer so i wanted to hack her the 20 mins the the riding club. any ideas on how to do it slower
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50 is plenty quick enough, drivers are numptys. I broke my hand a few weeks ago and had to walk to the yard along a 50 and that was bad enough, scared the **** out of me!

I would start with some ground work in the school/field, you absolutely have to have control of where she's putting all four feet and know that she will listen to you when she's scared of stuff, if you haven't got her trust on the ground you don't stand much chance from on top. Practice walking over tarpaulins, poles, round cones anything really she can't injure herself on. It won't come overnight, takes a long time to really build a relationship and if she's been recently moved this can un-hinge them for quite a long time.

I'd seriously get one of his books before you go any further, his methods aren't fluffy bunny hugging stuff but make perfect sense bearing in mind horses are 'hard wired' to clear off PDQ when they feel threatened.
 
hi
i have thought about what you said and i have done alot of ground work with her already. ive walked over the boards in the yard and they rattle. ive also walked her over poles and the fortlift tines today (forklift turned of). not sure how far more of this would lead us as she does it all willingly anyway.
 
If she's already working over spooky stuff at home then fine but you still need to break down the hacking into much smaller chunks and 'stage manage' it somewhat. If you rush this bit and try to get to shows etc then it puts pressure on you and her, she clearly has a few issues with this road and you may never know the reason but the violent reaction you describe is the only way she has of telling you it's damn scary and she doesn't trust you enough as yet.

You've probably been taught that 'you are safer on top, have more control' etc etc but honestly, if a horse has issues and reacts strongly to something scary then they want and indeed need you to give them a lead and nothing does more damage than smacking, kicking, or forcing them to walk past whatever it is that bothers them.

So, you need to be sure you can get on/off safely and easily as and where necessary, if she's too big to mount from the floor then practice, again at home, getting on from improvised mounting blocks like gates and so on.

Once you are happy you have mastered this then I'd ride her down to the road, get off while she's still relaxed and listening to you and lead her across the first carriageway, assuming there is some sort of safe central reserve to turn and come back. Make a fuss of her and take her home on a good note. Have someone with you and it goes without saying you should be wearing plenty of hi vis gear.

Build this up over a week or so, pick your times carefully for minimal traffic, don't be tempted to push it and go all the way at this stage. It may be a couple of weeks before you can get all the way across, then maybe go for a short hack and again when you come back, get off, lead her across and home.
 
I agree with what custard says except for one thing.
You DO have more control on top. There is more chance of your horse getting away from you on the ground.
It might stop you being hit by a car but it wont stop your horse being hit.

Have you considered long reining her to the road, maybe with another safe horse.

Just stay safe whatever you do. Roads are dangerous, dual carraigeways are worse!
 
guido16 said:
I agree with what custard says except for one thing.
You DO have more control on top. There is more chance of your horse getting away from you on the ground.
It might stop you being hit by a car but it wont stop your horse being hit.

Have you considered long reining her to the road, maybe with another safe horse.

Just stay safe whatever you do. Roads are dangerous, dual carraigeways are worse!
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This has always been the thinking but I disagree on two counts.

Firstly you are on a public highway, if the horse dumps you it will probably leave you injured and powerless to do anything about catching it. If it then causes a collision, God forbid a fatality, you will be in serious trouble. For the same reason I don't advocate long reining on a public road, the public don't have a clue what long reining is about and may react adversely to what appears at first to be a riderless horse!

Secondly when a horse's adrenaline starts to run, any chance of reasoning with it goes out the window, it reverts to flight behaviour and is quite likely to want rid of this 'predator' on it's back whether that's by bucking or some other method, if she succeeds in getting you off it will do nothing for her confidence or yours. The idea of getting off to lead is to avoid a confrontation in the first place.

In principle a quiet horse companion is a good plan but the trouble is people never do what you want exactly when you ask ie go in front, stay beside me etc etc because by the time you've realised your horse needs a lead the moment has passed and she will be reacting, adrenaline on the increase.

I think for now I'd take a foot companion, at least if you get into trouble they can help you whereas a person with their own horse to deal with can't.
 
custard said:
This has always been the thinking but I disagree on two counts.

Firstly you are on a public highway, if the horse dumps you it will probably leave you injured and powerless to do anything about catching it. If it then causes a collision, God forbid a fatality, you will be in serious trouble. For the same reason I don't advocate long reining on a public road, the public don't have a clue what long reining is about and may react adversely to what appears at first to be a riderless horse!

Secondly when a horse's adrenaline starts to run, any chance of reasoning with it goes out the window, it reverts to flight behaviour and is quite likely to want rid of this 'predator' on it's back whether that's by bucking or some other method, if she succeeds in getting you off it will do nothing for her confidence or yours. The idea of getting off to lead is to avoid a confrontation in the first place.

In principle a quiet horse companion is a good plan but the trouble is people never do what you want exactly when you ask ie go in front, stay beside me etc etc because by the time you've realised your horse needs a lead the moment has passed and she will be reacting, adrenaline on the increase.

I think for now I'd take a foot companion, at least if you get into trouble they can help you whereas a person with their own horse to deal with can't.
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When I take a trusted companion, they have always done what I have wanted. My friend can read my horse well, knows where to be at the right time and is invaluable. You must be taking the wrong people out with you as a companion, if they never do what you want! lol

I also think it is wrong to suggest that a horse in "flight" think its rider is all of a sudden a predator.
It is not the rider it is running from but the initial cause of the problem (car/bag etc etc)

To say that a person has more chance on the ground of controlling a 600kg horse is wrong.
Person v horse in strength = horse wins every time and you end up with the same scenario as you suggest above = loose horse!

As for long reining on the road, I suggested that she take another horse with her, or a person would do. I wasnt suggesting she long rein along the dual carraige way, just near it so the horse can see the cars etc etc

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree, apologies to OP for going off on a tangent. I hope you get things sorted!
 
im gonna try and walk her alone side the road and then up to it and then a little was across like u say. ill let you know how she goes
 
i think between me and my brother we have the best chance of keeping us all safe and i have led her across and ridden and i have to say although id rather be on her she was a bit better when i was leading her.
 
I think you will be fine so long as you do it in bite size chunks at her pace not yours. I know what it's like, she's your first horse and you want to get on with stuff but the patience will pay off I'm sure.

Where I used to keep my old mare there was a bridleway that went over the M40, but it was the only decent hack and you had to cross a footbridge which only had a 4' parapet. She was wary of it and I hate heights so used to lead her across, I couldn't stand being 5feet off the floor with nothing to stop me going over the edge!

She never made an issue of it nor did she take advantage of my nerves, I could lead her absolutely anywhere and I think she was better for having me confident at her shoulder rather than a jibbering idiot on her back, I'm just a person that would rather avoid a confrontation in the first place.
 
I would also try going off for a longer ride after the first crossing so she is not automatically heading for home as soon as you have crossed the first time. I would have thought it would be a bit much to ask her to cross turn round and cross it again, it doesnt really give her the opportunity to relax again. I would also lead her across if it is safe for you to do so or go with a horse that doesnt react and remember to relax yourself.
 
just wanted to let you know that my brother has managed to ride her across if and back and walk along side the road. we did little bits at a time and kept her moving. going to do it some more before i try again and my brother is braver then me. we did it at 9pm so it was still day light and road was quite
 
custard said:
I think you will be fine so long as you do it in bite size chunks at her pace not yours. I know what it's like, she's your first horse and you want to get on with stuff but the patience will pay off I'm sure.

Where I used to keep my old mare there was a bridleway that went over the M40, but it was the only decent hack and you had to cross a footbridge which only had a 4' parapet. She was wary of it and I hate heights so used to lead her across, I couldn't stand being 5feet off the floor with nothing to stop me going over the edge!

She never made an issue of it nor did she take advantage of my nerves, I could lead her absolutely anywhere and I think she was better for having me confident at her shoulder rather than a jibbering idiot on her back, I'm just a person that would rather avoid a confrontation in the first place.
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I am in total agreement with all that you have said throughout this post Custard. My old mare I rode everywhere but anything really scary I could get off and lead her over or past anything, including the motorway bridges over the M20 similar to those you describe. I think its only sensible to GET OFF a horse and lead it if YOUR LIFE is possibly seriously endangered. At the end of the day if your beloved horse kills itself by going mad when the adrenaline is rising and bolts or leaps over the parapet of a motorway bridge your family will forgive you, CHOOSE LIFE if in any doubt about YOUR safety IT MUST COME FIRST AND FOREMOST!!!
 
madeleine1 said:
just wanted to let you know that my brother has managed to ride her across if and back and walk along side the road. we did little bits at a time and kept her moving. going to do it some more before i try again and my brother is braver then me. we did it at 9pm so it was still day light and road was quite
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Sorry but if I was you and wanted to go to stuff on the otherside of the road or shows I would move yards or invest in transport. I know you are being very brave and trying to tackle this sensibly but I think you are mad! It sound unnecessarily hazardous and looks like the situation will always be an "accident waiting to happen".
 
Storminateacup said:
I think its only sensible to GET OFF a horse and lead it if YOUR LIFE is possibly seriously endangered.
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At last someone on my wavelength! You see it's all well and good doing what the textbook, your instructor or your granny says because they've been around horses for donkeys years and know them inside out blah blah etc but that won't help you if, God forbid, the horse gets loose and causes the death or injury of another road user. The legal system will hold you responsible, given that most of them know little about horses or riding and they won't perceive going to a show or a hack as very important in the great scheme of things. The average man in the street ie member of a jury would probably think it safer to get off.

You (and this is not directed at the OP it's a general 'you') have to think of the bigger picture here. The OP is having a problem crossing a dangerous road and needs to get to the other side as safely as possible for ALL CONCERNED, the horse's future education really has little to do with it, she has a duty of care (as we all do) to do the safest thing.
 
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Storminateacup said:
Sorry but if I was you and wanted to go to stuff on the otherside of the road or shows I would move yards or invest in transport. I know you are being very brave and trying to tackle this sensibly but I think you are mad! It sound unnecessarily hazardous and looks like the situation will always be an "accident waiting to happen".
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i keep her at home so moving yards is not an option and i cant afford transport. it is not an accident waiting to happen now. i took it to fast and now have slowed down to her speed. i just needed sensible advice (thanks custard). when my brother took her out the other night she was calm, relaxed and it was very safe. we have some of the best hacking in the county and that is only this road to deal with and then we can do everything we ever dreamed of.

btw we won 3 lots of clear round at a differant local competition tonight
 
just wanted to let people know we are know hacking out across the road both ways she doesnt panick or rush off.

we are loving out new found freedom and thankyou very much for your help
 
Sorry to interrupt or come in at the end of this; but the other thing you could do is perhaps petition the council or whoever, to ask for maybe a safer crossing, or a speed limit, or something. Presumably this is a road which other road users need to cross? Not easy I know, but its just a thought. I seem to remember there was a group of riders somewhere in Somerset who campaigned for higher fencing beside the elevated bridlepath they had to use to get over a major road, and the council put it up eventually.

So it might be worth raising the issue - you could speak to your local police road safety officer and/or county hall road safety officer.

The other thing that you could do would be to try to find a field near a busy road and put your horse in there so as to get used to traffic. I know a local trainer who does this with her youngsters as a matter of course.

Do take care! Gosh your hacking situation sounds incredibly scarey - my boy is pretty bombproof but I think I'd hesitate to do what you're doing even with him.
 
To the OP - excellent that you've had a good result! It seems slowing it down a bit and getting your brother's help has been just the ticket. Congrats. :)

On the related discussion . . . I don't agree that people are safer riding than leading, I think it's situational. It's pretty common that just having a person, let alone another horse, walk in front will get a lot of "stuck" horses moving. Why would that work if it wasn't something the horse understood? Also, if the rider can't get the horse to move properly off the leg then they - and the rest of us - are NOT safer. Sometimes needs must and a good trainer (Michael Peace, case in point) will read the horse and the situation and go with whatever next step seems reasonable.

Also, good help is fantastic but I must admit many of my experiences have echoed custard's, to the point where I'd rather go it alone if possible. It's not necessarily that the helpers have been intentionally unhelpful but it's amazing how people will react sometimes, not to mention that timing is often everything so trying to tell someone what to do at the same time as you're dealing with an upset horse can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. Again, you have to go with the situation at hand.

That said, when leading is the good option I think it's ESSENTIAL to come prepared. A good, long lead rope (I don't like longe lines as they tend to be too long and too cumbersome to carry but other people prefer them), GLOVES, and, for me anyway, a well fitted halter under the bridle. I really don't suggest people lead by the reins over the head if they're really expecting trouble. I have my own way of attaching lead/longe lines which I've found most effective and least likely to cause further stress on the horse, other people do things differently. Some people like a Dually or similar - again, personal preference. The most important thing is it's safe and effective. And a few leading lessons at home first, both to make sure the horse gets the point and that the handler knows how to react if the horse does get resistant. Also, the trick is to make the decision BEFORE it all goes pear shaped, not to wait until you're dancing around with a panicked horse, trying to get things back under control.

I think some people consider getting off as "losing" but it's not a competition, presumably it's a path towards a specific goal. I'm not saying people SHOULD get off, but I am saying it's SOMETIMES the right choice for making the safest, fastest, most effective progress in the long run.
 
we did some of both. some of the work we have been doing to help her has involved me riding and my brother leading. not for my benifit but for hers. and the other way round with me leading and my brother riding as he is a firmer rider and she is handled by me alot.

her field is next to the road. alll be it behind a huge hedge.

thank you for all you comments we have used a little bit of everything and she is enjoying the better hacking routes and the nice streches of long canter.

it has been alot of work but its been worth it and we managed to do it all safely. eg late at night so less traffic but early enough for it to still be light. we stopped the traffic once, its a 50mph road and the cars dont mind stopping, so we could keep going when she was worried.

to be honest i think she even looks forward to going out now.
happy hacking for us now

thanks
 
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