wyrdsister
Well-Known Member
In all honesty, I wouldn't do it again. I hope your issues are more easily solved.
Had a really poor dentist - could this be the reason for everyth
- Thread starter Wagtail
- Start date
In all honesty, I wouldn't do it again. I hope your issues are more easily solved.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
My horse recovered very well from KS surgery and is very well .but he's was an older horse with a lot of valuable experiance not sure I would have bothered for a young horse that knows nothing you can't find another one to know very easily .
On the biting issues I would have had the a dental trained vet in to X-ray her jaw long long ago .
I hope you find an answer and I am a bit conflicted as it's my experiance if they get to six without knowing what working six days a week is there are more often than not trouble when they have to work for a living .
I am a great one for having a work up when things are going badly but I might be tempted to try a months boot camp at home first if she where mine .
The big risk of buying an unbroken horse is that you no idea if it will suit you - she may well be perfect for someone else .
On the biting issues I would have had the a dental trained vet in to X-ray her jaw long long ago .
I hope you find an answer and I am a bit conflicted as it's my experiance if they get to six without knowing what working six days a week is there are more often than not trouble when they have to work for a living .
I am a great one for having a work up when things are going badly but I might be tempted to try a months boot camp at home first if she where mine .
The big risk of buying an unbroken horse is that you no idea if it will suit you - she may well be perfect for someone else .
Finlib
Well-Known Member
I am so sorry to hear you are having these problems.I followed your threads about your old mare and was so sad when you lost her .I lost my own mare about a year before and knew what it was like. I had owned my mare for 22years(got her as a 2 year old and struggled to keep her comfortable and sound (she had a large in-operable keratoma).
From your threads you seem a caring owner always trying to do the best you can for your horses so I hope you can sort this out and resolve your problems but also applaud your decision that no matter what she will stay with you. I have a couple of elderly boys (as well as 2 ridden geldings) The oldies enjoy free work work at liberty and non ridden agility , spook busting which we do for fun and is a lovely way interact with them and spend time with them as well as helping to keep them supple as well as a really good groom once or twice a week (they get brushed off at other times) There is lots to do with horses that doesn't involve riding and builds a bond of trust with them.My ridden horses do liberty work free schooling and agility work as well as being ridden.They enjoy it and learn loads of useful things that help ridden work.
I would be tempted to give her some down time once you have resolved the problem.
Good luck you deserve this to be resolved .
From your threads you seem a caring owner always trying to do the best you can for your horses so I hope you can sort this out and resolve your problems but also applaud your decision that no matter what she will stay with you. I have a couple of elderly boys (as well as 2 ridden geldings) The oldies enjoy free work work at liberty and non ridden agility , spook busting which we do for fun and is a lovely way interact with them and spend time with them as well as helping to keep them supple as well as a really good groom once or twice a week (they get brushed off at other times) There is lots to do with horses that doesn't involve riding and builds a bond of trust with them.My ridden horses do liberty work free schooling and agility work as well as being ridden.They enjoy it and learn loads of useful things that help ridden work.
I would be tempted to give her some down time once you have resolved the problem.
Good luck you deserve this to be resolved .
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. Your horses sound extremely lucky and you must have haad such a bond with your old mare.
rachk89
Well-Known Member
Havent read everything but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with this one. My horse wont rear when he needs his teeth done, but even a small amount of sharpness on even one tooth will cause head shaking from him. Get that sorted and he's fine again. Vets think he is nuts because they say that shouldnt bother him as much as it does, but it does.
Maybe get xrays done of her back too to be sure its not kissing spine. I didnt think my horse would have kissing spine as he didnt have the violent reactions yours does (he would rear with other riders, but not full up rearing, just small ones), but yep kissing spine around where the back of the saddle would be on his spine. He's had treatment (not surgery) and seems to be making progress although I cant ride just yet (its killing me not being able to ride). He's walking better, he's so chilled out and happy too, become very affectionate again, he's even standing better. He used to always rest a back leg, even as soon as you halted when riding he would rest a back leg, but now he's happy to stand on both when staying still. I'm expecting him to be better for riding, or at least hoping.
Good luck I hope you find the cause and you get your mare back.
Maybe get xrays done of her back too to be sure its not kissing spine. I didnt think my horse would have kissing spine as he didnt have the violent reactions yours does (he would rear with other riders, but not full up rearing, just small ones), but yep kissing spine around where the back of the saddle would be on his spine. He's had treatment (not surgery) and seems to be making progress although I cant ride just yet (its killing me not being able to ride). He's walking better, he's so chilled out and happy too, become very affectionate again, he's even standing better. He used to always rest a back leg, even as soon as you halted when riding he would rest a back leg, but now he's happy to stand on both when staying still. I'm expecting him to be better for riding, or at least hoping.
Good luck I hope you find the cause and you get your mare back.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Havent read everything but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with this one. My horse wont rear when he needs his teeth done, but even a small amount of sharpness on even one tooth will cause head shaking from him. Get that sorted and he's fine again. Vets think he is nuts because they say that shouldnt bother him as much as it does, but it does.
Maybe get xrays done of her back too to be sure its not kissing spine. I didnt think my horse would have kissing spine as he didnt have the violent reactions yours does (he would rear with other riders, but not full up rearing, just small ones), but yep kissing spine around where the back of the saddle would be on his spine. He's had treatment (not surgery) and seems to be making progress although I cant ride just yet (its killing me not being able to ride). He's walking better, he's so chilled out and happy too, become very affectionate again, he's even standing better. He used to always rest a back leg, even as soon as you halted when riding he would rest a back leg, but now he's happy to stand on both when staying still. I'm expecting him to be better for riding, or at least hoping.
Good luck I hope you find the cause and you get your mare back.
Thank you. I really hope your boy makes a good recovery. My mare always stands with one leg out behind or sometimes camped out with both legs behind.
WelshD
Well-Known Member
My little grey was very problematic early on, he had been bitted with his wolf teeth in so it was thought by many that this had led to his difficult behaviour and the hours worth of fight to get a bridle on him. Bitless didn't work and we found out why later
I insisted there was a problem with his mouth and called out vets and dentists, eventually some time down the line I called a dentist from further afield, I think she was the fifth person that came to look at the pony's teeth
She spotted immediately that he had two front teeth missing - something that had passed me by I admit but the teeth were clearly marked on the various charts that previous professional had left which makes the mind boggle. This wasn't a problem actually but up on the side of his mouth was another missing tooth, a top tooth and the bottom one was growing up in to the gap!
Its taken a couple of years and frequent visits to get that long tooth back to normal but the improvement in the pony started almost immediately
Not only was the tooth painfully digging in to his gum he couldn't move his jaw freely and obviously a bitless bridle was acting on a very sore area hence why that didnt help
I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct and kept calling people out - I have no idea why so many professionals missed his missing teeth
Its taught me to always look in the mouth myself and take a keen interest in what's going on
So in short if you suspect the teeth get another opinion!
I insisted there was a problem with his mouth and called out vets and dentists, eventually some time down the line I called a dentist from further afield, I think she was the fifth person that came to look at the pony's teeth
She spotted immediately that he had two front teeth missing - something that had passed me by I admit but the teeth were clearly marked on the various charts that previous professional had left which makes the mind boggle. This wasn't a problem actually but up on the side of his mouth was another missing tooth, a top tooth and the bottom one was growing up in to the gap!
Its taken a couple of years and frequent visits to get that long tooth back to normal but the improvement in the pony started almost immediately
Not only was the tooth painfully digging in to his gum he couldn't move his jaw freely and obviously a bitless bridle was acting on a very sore area hence why that didnt help
I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct and kept calling people out - I have no idea why so many professionals missed his missing teeth
Its taught me to always look in the mouth myself and take a keen interest in what's going on
So in short if you suspect the teeth get another opinion!
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. That is unbelievable. How could so many people miss it. Thank goodness you had the conviction to keep going and find his problem. Hopefully my mare's teeth are now a lot better. He was working on her for around 45 minutes and said she needed 3 times the work he would normally have to do. I understand now how a bitless bridle would probably make very little difference to the pain. I also need to find a better bit for her as my physio showed me how shallow her bit seat was. I need a very slim bit for her. I think I need to call out a professional bit person.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Have you tried the myler comfort snaffle the very very slim one, that's my go to for fat tongued horses .
It's worth trying ,they come up big so you might need a size smaller than you would expect .
The intelligent design curved mouth snaffle ( its unjointed ) is worth a try as is the simple ported bomber bit in fact there are lots of bomber bits worth thinking about .
you to try to work out if a still mouthpiece ( eggbutt ) or a loose ring one which the horse can more is going to preferred by the horse .
It's worth trying ,they come up big so you might need a size smaller than you would expect .
The intelligent design curved mouth snaffle ( its unjointed ) is worth a try as is the simple ported bomber bit in fact there are lots of bomber bits worth thinking about .
you to try to work out if a still mouthpiece ( eggbutt ) or a loose ring one which the horse can more is going to preferred by the horse .
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
That's so interesting, thank you for sharing.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you find your final dentist? Was it just working your way through all those local to you or was it a specialist in difficult cases?
Wagtail
Horse servant
Yes, I have just sold a Bombers bit as it was too large but I really do rate them and it may be the way to go. However she has hated every metal bit I have put in her mouth. She seems to only like nylon bits that are flexible, but they are too thick. I'm pretty sure, the more I think about everything that has happened in the past that the problem is with her teeth or head/jaw.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
the other bit to try (although agree you need another opinion on her teeth) is a peewee if you can find one. they are really good for animals with not much room in there-I had an Exmoor that wouldnt tolerate any jointed bit at all and the other one appreciates it too, they are very thin, slightly mullen and sweet iron. just an option for later on.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Does your practice have a vet with the specialist dental training or do they have a vet they refer horses onto ?
I know exactly where I would want horse to go if she where mine but it's way to far from you but there will be someone near to you specialising in this .
Has she had a full assessment from a ACPAT trained Physio while she's in work this might be worth doing quickly as it can help lead the vet to areas of interest .
Of course non of this may help because you can never guarantee a young horse is ever going to be a pick up and put down horse for a considerable time most youngsters and horses in early stage training do best in regular six or seven days a week type work until they are well established and if you have a youngster you need to plan for that .
I know exactly where I would want horse to go if she where mine but it's way to far from you but there will be someone near to you specialising in this .
Has she had a full assessment from a ACPAT trained Physio while she's in work this might be worth doing quickly as it can help lead the vet to areas of interest .
Of course non of this may help because you can never guarantee a young horse is ever going to be a pick up and put down horse for a considerable time most youngsters and horses in early stage training do best in regular six or seven days a week type work until they are well established and if you have a youngster you need to plan for that .
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Just following on with the poor dentistry thing. My ID/cob mare has a missing tooth in her upper left jaw, it was diagnosed at a young age as coincidentally her breeder and myself use the same excellent EDT. All good, she just needs 6 monthly dentals to keep everything tickety boo.
She was out on working livery for several years at two of the 'big name' equestrian colleges. Her then owner was paying out for her 6 monthly dental check ups from whoever the colleges have to do teeth.
She comes to me, age 10, with a new 5 stage vet pass from a top practice, and it turns out that her mouth is a disaster The 'dentists' have made no effort to deal with the overgrowth on the opposing tooth to the diastema. My very good EDT reckons it will take 2 years to fettle it, and even then it will never be 100%. She has a wave mouth and all sorts going on, none of which should have ever been allowed to develop, it's taken years of neglect to get this bad. She's much more comfortable now, though.
Very grumpy TP, who doesn't blame the former owner at all, she thought she was paying out for a good service for her beloved mare.
Wagtail, I think with what you say about your mare standing a little oddly, I'd go for a full 'loss of performance' workup, and see what that shows. Certainly teeth could be part of the issue, but maybe not all of it? Good luck.
She was out on working livery for several years at two of the 'big name' equestrian colleges. Her then owner was paying out for her 6 monthly dental check ups from whoever the colleges have to do teeth.
She comes to me, age 10, with a new 5 stage vet pass from a top practice, and it turns out that her mouth is a disaster The 'dentists' have made no effort to deal with the overgrowth on the opposing tooth to the diastema. My very good EDT reckons it will take 2 years to fettle it, and even then it will never be 100%. She has a wave mouth and all sorts going on, none of which should have ever been allowed to develop, it's taken years of neglect to get this bad. She's much more comfortable now, though.
Very grumpy TP, who doesn't blame the former owner at all, she thought she was paying out for a good service for her beloved mare.
Wagtail, I think with what you say about your mare standing a little oddly, I'd go for a full 'loss of performance' workup, and see what that shows. Certainly teeth could be part of the issue, but maybe not all of it? Good luck.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. Yes, with teeth it is very difficult for an owner to be absolutelly sure their EDT is doing a good job. All I know is that my current dentist comes highly recommended and is booked up 3 months in advance and is both BEVA and BVDA qualified. I will see how she is next week when I start working her again. My chiro told me that most of her body tightness stems from her head. She works very closely with my veterinary practice and is also liaising with my dentist.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I would not have a vet do my horse's teeth. I think referral is jumping the gun a bit. Let's just see what I have when I start working her next week.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
I really feel for you Wagtail, it can be soul destroying when you know somthings just not right.
The good thing is that you do have options, and like others Id be getting a full vet work up done, the stiffness and standing camped out could indicate something like pssm. It would be worth it to get to the bottom of things and rule things out.
From there, given that you've got other things going, Id either turn her away or get somebody else to school for a while and perhaps try to include the odd pleasure ride or something so that she learns ridden work can be fun.
I think giving yourself a break from the stress of it all will mean you most likely will want to get back in the saddle again at some point, and if you don't then that's okay too. I hope her issues are resolved for you.
The good thing is that you do have options, and like others Id be getting a full vet work up done, the stiffness and standing camped out could indicate something like pssm. It would be worth it to get to the bottom of things and rule things out.
From there, given that you've got other things going, Id either turn her away or get somebody else to school for a while and perhaps try to include the odd pleasure ride or something so that she learns ridden work can be fun.
I think giving yourself a break from the stress of it all will mean you most likely will want to get back in the saddle again at some point, and if you don't then that's okay too. I hope her issues are resolved for you.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Thank you. She has more energy and stamina than I have ever seen in a horse and moves incredibly well without a hint of lameness or being unlevel in any way. Basically, I think I have a horse with some discomfort somewhere but it is not compromising her in any way unridden. When ridden she moves just as well and extravagantly. But then we have this rearing problem. She has to wear over reach boots because she is short coupled and steps through better than any horse I have owned or trained and has a massive over track in trot as well as in walk. I can't see her having a problem such as PSSM. Of course, I could be wrong. I just think I need to see what happens next week when she comes back into work. I will be chatting about everything with the vet when he comes on Monday too. If he suggests further investigations, she will have them.
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BBP
Well-Known Member
Hiya, so sorry to hear of your troubles, I remember seeing her photos when you first got her and thinking how gorgeous she was. I can't help with the solution, but i can say that my lad was a wild ride for much of the first 6 years that I had him, since a 3yo. He would get better and worse, and then in 2015 it all went completely to hell. he did frighten me a bit, and I wasn't sure he was going to be rideable again. Like you I was prepared to keep him forever as long as he was field happy, and I didn't really want to do hospital investigations as I didn't want to put him through them. But in the end I did, and far more than I had planned. He had a bone scan, back x-rays, muscle biopsy, head CT and scope for ulcers. I felt horrible about doing it, but for a sharp sensitive horse he took it all in his stride and caused no fuss at all. Im so glad I did it all as he is now the most wonderful horse to ride and deal with. He still gets a bit hyper, that's just him, but he is bright, happy, a pleasure to hack, jump and school, and he puts the biggest smile on my face every single day. I hope you find a similar resolution with your mare and get as much joy from her as I have with mine.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I think you have done so well with him. You have been through so much together. I guess I am not so worried about the investigations, just that if anything is found such as KS, I won't have it treated in any case unless she was uncomfortable in herself, which she's not. I have had too many bad experiences with major vet hospitals in terms of invasive treatment which has not worked and the horse ends up going through it all for nothing. Was anything found with your boy? Did the treatment work or was it just your own perseverence in the end?
Wagtail
Horse servant
The reason I am so against her going in for major investigations and possible treatment, is because it would only be so I could ride her. I don't even know what she is like when she is properly riding because we haven't got that far. If I had a superstar horse that I knew I clicked with and was basicaally everything I wanted in a ridden horse, then if something went wrong, I think it would be worth trying to mend it. But when you have an unknown quantity, like my girl, why put her through it all when a) it may not work, and b) she may still have behavioural issues afterwards? Some of her rearing is definitely behavioural, because she has done it when just being led if she doesn't get to go where she wants or as quickly as she wants. So what I need to know is how much is behavioural and how much is physical. I started this thread just asking for experience of similar bad behaviour caused by dental issues. I appreciate all the other suggestions, and these will be addressed if her issues persist, but I was looking for other dental experiences in particular. It is also very good to hear all the stories of horses coming good in the end, whether it be due to a tooth problem or otherwise.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Fwiw Wagtail, I would have exactly the same approach as you.
BBP
Well-Known Member
We found an awful lot actually, which made me feel a bit better about having it done. I knew with him that he wasn't happy just in the field, and I wanted to make sure that if i did keep him just as a pet that he wasn't in pain for that, which sounds like it maybe doesn't apply to yours as she seems ok when not under pressure.
With him we found: Bone scan found sacroiliac injury from a fall in the field which I treated with steroids and then more importantly had Rob Jackson horseback vet out to treat him. Head CT showed nothing but helped rule out brain tumour (turned out that behaviours was due to terrible allergies/headaches, which i now treat with antihistamines and a lot of consideration as to what i ask of him when pollen is bad). Muscle biopsy showed he has Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis (RER) which is a calcium release issue linked to stress which has helped me to understand his behaviour a lot better and so I manage him better, I have stopped trying to push him out of his comfort zone and just accept we will never hack alone. Scoping showed ulcers near the pylorus in the glandular region, which treatment was very successful for and I now understand when he is showing signs of gut discomfort (I treat this just with more hay/chaff).
I also as part of my own efforts switched to a flexible tree saddle which did wonders for his movement and showed me how badly his previous saddle fitted him, despite being checked routinely by one of the best saddlers in the country. And I switched to a bitless bridle, which just seemed to relax him as he had never been happy in the mouth with a bit. I don't compete at dressage so I don't need a bit. When his hayfever is bad I realised that the rope sidepull bridle also hurt him as his facial nerves get so sensitised, so this year I have started having the bridle on for safety but using a neckrope to 'steer' him, to take any pressure off his nose. That has worked brilliantly so far.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
If she moves so well etc it does all point more to the head end, so maybe some xrays of just that end would be illumiating?
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
why not out of interest? maybe I've been lucky but I've never had a problem using a vet for teeth although I choose ones that have additional training-I also had a vet-EDT for a while which was the best of both worlds. seems to me people have as many problmes using EDTs as vets going on what I've been told/read.
I am not one for swearing by ACPAT physios fwiw, I had two-one of which is very famous in her field who could barely be bothered to see the horse move and only ever used a machine on him. The other, her protege, was more thorough but missed the horse was bilaterally lame behind so if I were to go the workup route, I'd go straight to vet.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Wow. I really applaud your dedication. It's amazing to hear that you are still able to enjoy him as a ridden horse but that is testament to your empathy and love for this horse.
rachk89
Well-Known Member
It might not be surgery for kissing spine and even then it's only keyhole surgery. My horse has only been given a drug and it's helped him already. They try to avoid surgery if they can now since the drug tends to work.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
Have you looked at the nathe bits, they're rubber, flexible and pretty thin.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Yes, but lets just see how she is when I work her next week first. We haven't yet seen whether the fact that her teeth were in a real state and that has now been sorted makes a difference. The dentist did 3 times the amount of work he would normally need to on a horse. He wants to hear how she goes next week.
I think they all vary in their ability. I have had very poor physios and very good ones. My chiro was here for one and a half hours. She watched her move both led and on the lunge before and after treatment. She has worked wonders on a horse here that would become unridable if her visits were spaced too far apart and would be fine agaain after treatment.
Regarding vets and teeth. Most vets will admit that they hate doing horses' teeth. We do have one at our practice who specialises in teeth, but she is the one vet there who I have no confidence in due to errors made in the past. Dentists, on the other hand, so long as they are properly qualified and not like the one I used for the previous two years, are far more practiced at doing horses' teeth. It is their specialism. In addition, my old mare, who was always good to have her teeth done by the dentist, became terrified after once being done by the vet (not this practice), and always had to be sedated from then on. The vet really hurt her and she whacked me hard in the knee with the dental gag, the pain causing me to fall to the gound, then reared and knocked her poll on the beam. No wonder she hated having her teeth done since then. I had the vet to remove my current mare's wolf teeth, however.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The thing is you are always one step behind ,because an EDT can't sedate the horse and these problematic horses need the very very back of their mouths checking carefully and all the research shows that horse need sedation for this .
I always have my horses first dental with me done at the vets in the stocks with a good whack of sedation you can then get their necks extended in a way you just can't at home .
My vets now have a camera for checking at the back and then you really can assess what's what .
My horse J had a horrible start in his working life because of the teeth he was born with although my vets quickly knew where the problem was it was not possible to diagnose it and X-rays looked normal it took a MRI scan to identify the issue .
Once they removed to tooth and sorted the jaw he was a much happier boy.
I learnt a lot about mouths from that experiance I never hang about now I want to understand what's in there from the start and the vet surgery is by the best place to get a good look .