Had a really poor dentist - could this be the reason for everyth

Goldenstar

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Well I know you are the most perfect horse owner Goldenstar as you keep on bragging about it on here. I couldn't possibly live up to your exceptional standards. There you go. My poor, poor horse.

Since I very rarely ever start a thread I fail to see what you're talking about .
And but since you mentain standards yes I would be ashamed to have posted what you have posted ,this bitting issue is long standing and nothing has been done to get to the bottom of it so the horse is now rearing ( why would it not no body has got to the bottom of the first issue ) .
 

rachk89

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To be honest though I haven't seen the op post that they have tried riding again and the horse is still the same. The horse might be cured now but until she rides the mare we don't know. No point in taking a horse to a vet for a lameness work up it may not need. Ride first, if still the same move on to plan b.

To be honest though you can do lameness work ups all you want, unless the horse shows the pain you're screwed. Mine never showed any pain when the vets checked him or lameness. He only showed it through his behaviour, but with no proof of the pain everyone thought he's trying it on. And he was only misbehaving in the arena, fields and hacks were fine. But he eventually showed thepain and we find out its kissing spine. Never shown an ounce of pain from his back before, but suddenly even brushing your finger on his back made him sore.

If the chiro worked the horse out of the tension and she didn't get worse then it's probably just muscle tension. It's when you remove the tension and suddenly they are lame that you have a problem. That's what my physio told me at least while she did my horse and he became worse after she worked the tension out.
 

Wagtail

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Since I very rarely ever start a thread I fail to see what you're talking about .
And but since you mentain standards yes I would be ashamed to have posted what you have posted ,this bitting issue is long standing and nothing has been done to get to the bottom of it so the horse is now rearing ( why would it not no body has got to the bottom of the first issue ) .

Oh come on GS you are one of the most judgemental and superior people on here. Yes, you often give good advice but boy are you condescending in your tone. My mare probably had a bit in her mouth fewer than fifteen times before being sent away. I just worked around her issues by getting on with the education I could do without a bit. That meant backing her bitless. Many people do this as a matter of course. I don't believe in forcing an issue with a horse. Not accepting a particular bit is not indicative of their being a problem, and if you think it is, then you have not started many horses. You have mainly big horses with big roomy mouths. I doubt you've ever started a horse with a head and mouth conformation like my mare. I knew there would be a problem finding the right bit just by looking at her. But hey, if I should have shipped her off to Rossdales or somewhere similar as soon as she showed any objection to a piece of tack, then my bad.
 

Wagtail

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To be honest though I haven't seen the op post that they have tried riding again and the horse is still the same. The horse might be cured now but until she rides the mare we don't know. No point in taking a horse to a vet for a lameness work up it may not need. Ride first, if still the same move on to plan b.

To be honest though you can do lameness work ups all you want, unless the horse shows the pain you're screwed. Mine never showed any pain when the vets checked him or lameness. He only showed it through his behaviour, but with no proof of the pain everyone thought he's trying it on. And he was only misbehaving in the arena, fields and hacks were fine. But he eventually showed thepain and we find out its kissing spine. Never shown an ounce of pain from his back before, but suddenly even brushing your finger on his back made him sore.

If the chiro worked the horse out of the tension and she didn't get worse then it's probably just muscle tension. It's when you remove the tension and suddenly they are lame that you have a problem. That's what my physio told me at least while she did my horse and he became worse after she worked the tension out.

Thank you rachk89. This is what I keep trying to say. I need to wait until next week before working her because the chiro did a lot of work on her head and said she needed the time off. The muscle tension was gone by the time she'd been treated and the chiro suspected it was related to the head. I need to see how she is when I next work her before doing any more investigations.
 

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Hi Wagtail, I haven't read all the responses, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth!! It could all so easily be teeth related - after all we are miserable, tense and grumpy when our teeth are bad (or is that just me???). If it was mine, I wouldn't even think about actually riding her for ages, the priorities would be to make her enjoy being around humans and to enjoy learning and gain trust and confidence in you. To this end, I would just chill and try teaching her a few fun tricks, do groundwork, but always make it fun and work with her, not against her. Maybe then one day she will let you know that it is OK to get on and you can just take it from there.

I have posted a few times about the fact that for the average person, my old horse who could laugh at jokes was much more impressive that all the rosettes we won!! You tube, and various websites have lots of ideas (101 horse tricks, etc). I am also lucky that I am working with an amazing teacher who specialises in groundwork which relates to ridden work - and making it enjoyable for the horse, I mix this with clicker as to my mind that speeds up the learning process but I guess any primarily positive reinforcement system would work.

I know you are a great horseperson, but I truly believe that the time you spend 'playing' with horses is the most valuable time and makes everything else so much easier for all.
 

fredflop

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Well as has been said... see what's she's like when you can ride her again. Saddler is also a good idea, although it's probably not related, if your going to go through insurance, no doubt they will want to know if it's been checked.

I'd probably also get a different therapy practitioner out as well, just to check. I've had very good results from equine touch, although I've only used one person for it.

If it was my horse and nothing improved I would have in to the vet for a work up. I've had a horse with KS, whom the physio and chiro couldn't find an issue with, and didn't have any problems with movement or stride length
 

Wagtail

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Hi Wagtail, I haven't read all the responses, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth!! It could all so easily be teeth related - after all we are miserable, tense and grumpy when our teeth are bad (or is that just me???). If it was mine, I wouldn't even think about actually riding her for ages, the priorities would be to make her enjoy being around humans and to enjoy learning and gain trust and confidence in you. To this end, I would just chill and try teaching her a few fun tricks, do groundwork, but always make it fun and work with her, not against her. Maybe then one day she will let you know that it is OK to get on and you can just take it from there.

I have posted a few times about the fact that for the average person, my old horse who could laugh at jokes was much more impressive that all the rosettes we won!! You tube, and various websites have lots of ideas (101 horse tricks, etc). I am also lucky that I am working with an amazing teacher who specialises in groundwork which relates to ridden work - and making it enjoyable for the horse, I mix this with clicker as to my mind that speeds up the learning process but I guess any primarily positive reinforcement system would work.

I know you are a great horseperson, but I truly believe that the time you spend 'playing' with horses is the most valuable time and makes everything else so much easier for all.

Thank you. That is a very kind reply. I am no longer the rider I used to be before my illness, but still enjoy doing groundwork and liberty training. My mare loves clicker training and learning new things. I am fine riding other horses, even if they throw in a trick or two, but my mare has scared me. She is a sweet natured thing, even if she is a dominant mare, she has never tried to hurt me, so I don't buy it that she's trying it on. I do need to see if the teeth rasping has made a difference however, so that I know whether more investigations are indicated.
 

Goldenstar

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Do put me on user ignore then .
I really think all this drama is way overblown and can't for the life of me work out why you bought an unbroken horse .
 

Cecile

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Pooh is the answer! Over the next few days check the pooh any long fibre's in the pooh means there is possibly a residue problem with the teeth

I drive my husband insane when out walking with the dog, if I see any horse pooh I can predict if the horse that done it has wonderful teeth or not

Just call me old fashioned but pooh can tell you so much about what is going on with teeth, I am fixated with pooh picking and will happily break any to see if dry, too green or find any long fibre's,
you should see me if I get one in with worms I've been known to pick them out put them in a drinking mug and drive them to the vets. My vet is even more disgusting he collects worms in a jar and they were kept on the shelf in the vets WC

Take my word for it pooh is the answer, it answers a multitude of sins and problems
 

Wagtail

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Well as has been said... see what's she's like when you can ride her again. Saddler is also a good idea, although it's probably not related, if your going to go through insurance, no doubt they will want to know if it's been checked.

I'd probably also get a different therapy practitioner out as well, just to check. I've had very good results from equine touch, although I've only used one person for it.

If it was my horse and nothing improved I would have in to the vet for a work up. I've had a horse with KS, whom the physio and chiro couldn't find an issue with, and didn't have any problems with movement or stride length

Thank you. The saddler came only 3 weeks ago but I'm having her checked again.
 

Wagtail

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Pooh is the answer! Over the next few days check the pooh any long fibre's in the pooh means there is possibly a residue problem with the teeth

I drive my husband insane when out walking with the dog, if I see any horse pooh I can predict if the horse that done it has wonderful teeth or not

Just call me old fashioned but pooh can tell you so much about what is going on with teeth, I am fixated with pooh picking and will happily break any to see if dry, too green or find any long fibre's,
you should see me if I get one in with worms I've been known to pick them out put them in a drinking mug and drive them to the vets. My vet is even more disgusting he collects worms in a jar and they were kept on the shelf in the vets WC

Take my word for it pooh is the answer, it answers a multitude of sins and problems

Lol, well you may be right there!
 

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Yes, I have just sold a Bombers bit as it was too large but I really do rate them and it may be the way to go. However she has hated every metal bit I have put in her mouth. She seems to only like nylon bits that are flexible, but they are too thick. I'm pretty sure, the more I think about everything that has happened in the past that the problem is with her teeth or head/jaw.

Just a thought but what about trying her with a multi-jointed bit like a waterford if they come in a thinner form than a nylon bit? I know they are considered to be severe but if use carefully with light hands then that shouldn't be an issue. It would give the felxibility seh seems to like but possibly with a narrower mouth piece?

Good luck when you do get back on her and hopefully this has solved the extra problem over her being a stroppy mare
 

molar roller

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Sorry to hear that story. A lot of horses have riding problems due to teeth problems and teeth could cause all the issues you are describing.
As you know wolf teeth are problem for youngsters but sometimes vets or unexperienced dental technicians missed ''blind wolf teeth'' .....also hooks,supernumary teeth, misplaced teeth and bad positioned TM joint are negative factors. even sometimes long canines are source of pain (obviously %99 of mares don't have)
For example please search on the googe as ''caudal hook horse teeth'' and check the pics, if a horse has a caudal hook problem he/she might shake his/her head to up meaninglessly while cantering or trotting, if it is a kind of showjumper that situation is also annoying for rider cos the horse heads up like a duck while coming close to fences.
I have to say that if a dental tech or vet does not use any electric tools can't float it properly. frankly some of practioners don't care about it even have any electric tool. Trust me thousands of international level horses have that problem in Euro territory because of ignorant dental practioners. Unfortunately half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.
BTW if your physio says that very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw, might have a TMJ problem too. Good luck!
 

Wagtail

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Sorry to hear that story. A lot of horses have riding problems due to teeth problems and teeth could cause all the issues you are describing.
As you know wolf teeth are problem for youngsters but sometimes vets or unexperienced dental technicians missed ''blind wolf teeth'' .....also hooks,supernumary teeth, misplaced teeth and bad positioned TM joint are negative factors. even sometimes long canines are source of pain (obviously %99 of mares don't have)
For example please search on the googe as ''caudal hook horse teeth'' and check the pics, if a horse has a caudal hook problem he/she might shake his/her head to up meaninglessly while cantering or trotting, if it is a kind of showjumper that situation is also annoying for rider cos the horse heads up like a duck while coming close to fences.
I have to say that if a dental tech or vet does not use any electric tools can't float it properly. frankly some of practioners don't care about it even have any electric tool. Trust me thousands of international level horses have that problem in Euro territory because of ignorant dental practioners. Unfortunately half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.
BTW if your physio says that very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw, might have a TMJ problem too. Good luck!

Thank you. That is a very helpful answer. I did wonder about TMJ. I hope that is not her problem. Hopefully the dentist has already addressed the issues, but if not, that's another thing to consider.
 

Wagtail

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Just a thought but what about trying her with a multi-jointed bit like a waterford if they come in a thinner form than a nylon bit? I know they are considered to be severe but if use carefully with light hands then that shouldn't be an issue. It would give the felxibility seh seems to like but possibly with a narrower mouth piece?

Good luck when you do get back on her and hopefully this has solved the extra problem over her being a stroppy mare


Thank you. It seemed that before being ridden away, her episodes were due to being in season, but now they are all of the time when ridden. On the ground, she's a dream. I'm not keen on waterfords, personally, although I know they have their uses for strong horses that go against the bit. However, I think one would push her over the edge. The bumps and the fact that it's metal. She hates metal.
 

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If you can get hold of one then I'd really recommend trying a leather bit, I've seen difficult to bit horses transformed by one and they tend to keep the mouth moist whereas plastic or rubber can be drying which can cause issues.
 

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If you can get hold of one then I'd really recommend trying a leather bit, I've seen difficult to bit horses transformed by one and they tend to keep the mouth moist whereas plastic or rubber can be drying which can cause issues.

Thank you. I did try and find one at one time, but gave up. The ones I found were very thick. I will keep looking though.
 

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If you're able and willing to pay out, you could try a poponici bit: https://bitspecialist.com/loose-ring-poponcini.html The mouthpiece is very soft and flexible - much more so than a happymouth for example

Trust also have a range of hard and soft plastic bits with varying ports: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/trust.html?p=1

Beris, again, have a range of hard plastic and leather bits: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/beris.html

I used to like the Bombers bits, but they have been bringing out some absolutely horrific mouthpieces (to cater for the Western and Eventing market) and I now wont buy one on principle, but they have some nice simple snaffles with interesting mouth shapes if you wanted to try metal again. Bombers are sweet iron, so have a different flavor than plain stainless, titanium or aluminium.
 

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Try a Bombers or the Hilary Vernon shaped bits for tongue relief, with latex wrapped around the mouth. Another one of mine was unhappy in a snaffle and conventional bridle. I changed to a Micklem and the HV Mullen mouth eggbut which is very shaped and instantly had a much happier horse. He had a tiny mouth (4.75") with massive tongue, low pallet and short mouth. What size bit do you need? I have the HV and a loose ring BB in 5".
 

Wagtail

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If you're able and willing to pay out, you could try a poponici bit: https://bitspecialist.com/loose-ring-poponcini.html The mouthpiece is very soft and flexible - much more so than a happymouth for example

Trust also have a range of hard and soft plastic bits with varying ports: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/trust.html?p=1

Beris, again, have a range of hard plastic and leather bits: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/beris.html

I used to like the Bombers bits, but they have been bringing out some absolutely horrific mouthpieces (to cater for the Western and Eventing market) and I now wont buy one on principle, but they have some nice simple snaffles with interesting mouth shapes if you wanted to try metal again. Bombers are sweet iron, so have a different flavor than plain stainless, titanium or aluminium.

Try a Bombers or the Hilary Vernon shaped bits for tongue relief, with latex wrapped around the mouth. Another one of mine was unhappy in a snaffle and conventional bridle. I changed to a Micklem and the HV Mullen mouth eggbut which is very shaped and instantly had a much happier horse. He had a tiny mouth (4.75") with massive tongue, low pallet and short mouth. What size bit do you need? I have the HV and a loose ring BB in 5".

Thank you both for the suggestions. I will go and have a look at them now. She's and awkward size between 4.5 and 5 inches.
 

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does she long rein from a bit it might be worth trying it from a head collar with a bit in (once she has had time to heal) then moving on to the bit it should tell you if it is the bit, her head or her back that are the issue. If she doesnt it might be worth teaching her before getting back on
 

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does she long rein from a bit it might be worth trying it from a head collar with a bit in (once she has had time to heal) then moving on to the bit it should tell you if it is the bit, her head or her back that are the issue. If she doesnt it might be worth teaching her before getting back on

Yes, that's a good idea. She has long reined fine bitless before, but run away when bitted.
 

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Thank you. It seemed that before being ridden away, her episodes were due to being in season, but now they are all of the time when ridden. On the ground, she's a dream. I'm not keen on waterfords, personally, although I know they have their uses for strong horses that go against the bit. However, I think one would push her over the edge. The bumps and the fact that it's metal. She hates metal.

Fair enough - I've never used them myself but had a friend with an ex-racer who reared at anything and she found him good in it. You know your horse and know if anything of our ideas would be suitable for her :)

Once her teeth are sorted so there's no sharp edges to dig into her cheeks then bitless may be the way to go unless you want to compete in dressage (this is assuming it's not a trigeminal nerve type thing :) )
I'm a fan of the nose rope (http://www.noseropes.co.uk/products-prices/) as simple and cheap and i find it effective :)
 

Wagtail

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Fair enough - I've never used them myself but had a friend with an ex-racer who reared at anything and she found him good in it. You know your horse and know if anything of our ideas would be suitable for her :)

Once her teeth are sorted so there's no sharp edges to dig into her cheeks then bitless may be the way to go unless you want to compete in dressage (this is assuming it's not a trigeminal nerve type thing :) )
I'm a fan of the nose rope (http://www.noseropes.co.uk/products-prices/) as simple and cheap and i find it effective :)

Thank you. I'll take a look.
 

Wagtail

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Now I have the full report back from the chiro I have a bit more direction, I think. The main problem is around her hyoid with Dysfunction left side: post temporalis, diagastric & massetter muscle hypertonicity, Marked L masseyter spasm. After this was worked on and released somewhat, the range of movement and tightness in her body was markedly improved. I will speak to the vet about this tomorrow with a view to getting him back for head x-rays should she not be improved when I start working her again this week.
 

Wagtail

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How are you getting on with her now wagtail?

We have had the saddler out and the vet. Saddle fits fine although she was nervous having it on but saddler said whatever was causing her problems, it wasn't the saddle. The vet is adamant there is nothing physical wrong with her but has agreed to come and do a full work up should we continue to have problems. So, I have had a new trainer to see her who has experience of KS horses and many other physical issues. She thought KS when talking to me, but not after working with her. She thinks it is nappiness and confusion over what is expected of her. We are taking her right back to basics with long reining and lungeing with a rider on board. Apart from one rear during the first session on the long reins, we have had no other rearing, including when ridden. We will have to see what she's like once we remove the lunge and all she has is the rider.
 
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