Had to put his shoes back on

J

JenHunt

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So, after 6 weeks of Ron being barefoot behind we have had to put his shoes back on.

Before I get a load of abuse about following fashion or anything else please let me explain....

My farrier (F) and I discussed it and decided that we would try it and see how he got on (Ron, not the farrier) - F could see the benefits but could also see potential problems. He also knows my horse and me well and that I would call him if we had problems. The main reason for trying was to see how Ron would deal with down hill bits on the road. He's always hated it with shoes on, and as he's inclined to walk on the outside of his hind feet F doesn't want to use road nails or studs as they'd unbalance the foot further. We wanted to see if it was a fear of slipping that makes him walk like a camel (lateral pairs of legs, almost 2 time), or if it was something else.

As it happens, F had more problems than I did (he got a mengitic infection following a concussion when someone reversed into his van, and spent a week in ICU). :eek:

Ron was sound all the way through the 6 weeks, and I was all prepared to continue without the shoes. He'd hacked out, he'd been to the beach and he'd even done an ODE (though I think the results of the day maybe point to the farrier's findings and I'm annoyed at myself for not picking it up). And most importantly, he was marching down the hills walking properly. He then pulled his front left shoe off larking about in the field and came in footsore from that! :rolleyes:

F came on Friday and said that on initial appearance the feet looked good (which is what most people on here thought when seeing the photos), but when he went to tidy them up found that one of the frogs had significant bruising and was quite tender to touch. He and I have no idea why Ron wasn't showing as footsore. After a bit of discussion about it we decided to put his shoes back on and to maybe review it again at a later date.

So hacked out over the weekend in walk and he's really not happy walking down hill on the road but no idea what to try....
 
thanks!

F is a very good farrier, and I value his opinion a lot - he's the only farrier I know who can keep my sisters horse sound (he's got bone spavin and side bone) without bute and can get Ron's shoes to stay on 95% of the time! - I wouldn't want to fall out with him over something that he knows more about than I do!
 
Might be worth trying plastic shoes behind?
Used to have them on an arab x who used to slither all over the place on the roads and they worked well for him. Not the cheapest option I know but worth a shot?
 
Farriers are worth their weight in gold!! Ours actually persuaded our disagreeing vet to test Kel for Cushings - which he did and the farrier was right, she did have it!
I know a friends horse (a 16.2hh ISH so not small by any stretch) doesn't like walking downhill - she is shod on her front feet. We asked about studs but our farrier said no straight away - he asked if we could imagine the shock that would go into the hoof if it wasn't allowed its natural 'movement' once it had hit the floor and I suppose its right!
He said instead push her forwards, like really push her on and march her downhill - we thought he was mad but tried it anyway and lo and behold, she didn't actually slip :confused: crazy! bit frightening marching down the canal bridge though!!
K x
 
I don't understand Jenhunt. If he wasn't footsore why could he not continue without the shoes?

How did he find that the frog had significant bruising - did he trim some off and expose it? Current thinking is that the frog should not be trimmed.

It seems such a pity to take away that confidence that he found going down hill just because of one early bruise, especially as it was not making him footsore. He may only have needed another couple of weeks for his frogs to pack into hard shock absorbers, as they do.

I have no problem whatsoever with people shoeing a horse who is footie, but you say he wasn't.

I'm totally confused by your post :(
 
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He doesn't trim the frog, but he uses a stiff brush to work the worst of the dirt away and Ron's normally black frogs were dark purple. He also tidies up where Ron's frog/heel/coronet band try to grow into the grooves either side of the frog (I don't know which it is, but all 3 seem to join up and gang up on his heel bars)

He was suggesting that we try again in a couple of months time - I'm not sure, but am going to have a good think about it!

Thinking back, Ron put in a couple of uncharacteristic stops with OH at the ODE (I say uncharacteristic, but I mean, he doesn't stop with me any more, and this was the first time OH has competed at 3foot level) which we put down to OH getting in front of the movement, but a lot of the jumps on the XC course had gravelly take offs, so if he was sore he wouldn't really want to jump.

The more I think about it the more I wonder if he was slightly footsore in both feet, and with being footsore in front from the missing shoe we couldn't see that he was sore behind?!
 
too much too soon? have his feet had time to adjust to different surfaces? did you start him from square 1? just walking out in hand for 10 mins. im sorry but i dont think 6wks is long enuf :-/
 
binky - he had the first week doing very little, T/o 24/7 on poor pasture (which was, and still is link concrete), and 2 short 10/15 minute hacks on the road in walk. We built up to his normal summer workload over 3 weeks, and I'm fortunate that he's a naturally very fit horse, so by the end of the 6 weeks he was fit enough to do the ODE.
 
JenHunt said:
He doesn't trim the frog, but he uses a stiff brush to work the worst of the dirt away and Ron's normally black frogs were dark purple. He also tidies up where Ron's frog/heel/coronet band try to grow into the grooves either side of the frog (I don't know which it is, but all 3 seem to join up and gang up on his heel bars)
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I have to say that it doesn't sound anything like enough to warrant putting the shoes back on to me, especially when Ron was so very much happier walking downhill. Backing off the work for a couple of weeks would probably have done the trick. If you try again, perhaps make it a time when you aren't wanting to compete for a few months.

What you describe in the quote is normal, from the way I understand you, for a hard working barefoot horse. The bottom of the bulbs of the heel, the end of the frog and the back of the seat of corn area all meld together into one unit where it is difficult to tell where one stops and the other starts.

I can COMPLETELY understand why you trust your farrier and are doing what he says. But I do not think he knows enough about how to manage a hardworking barefoot horse. I would not try again, if I were you, without finding a farrier or trimmer who already has plenty of competing/jumping/hunting barefooters on their books.
 
JenHunt said:
binky - he had the first week doing very little, T/o 24/7 on poor pasture (which was, and still is link concrete), and 2 short 10/15 minute hacks on the road in walk. We built up to his normal summer workload over 3 weeks, and I'm fortunate that he's a naturally very fit horse, so by the end of the 6 weeks he was fit enough to do the ODE.
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I'm sorry Jen but his feet weren't fit enough even if his body was, or he would not have had the bruises. Your build-up was too quick for a spring with hard ground. If you ever try again, go for winter instead.
 
I think that's the way I'm headed tbh cptrayes... F is a good farrier, but he'll admit himself that his experience is more in shoeing for performance horses and remedial stuff.

And fwiw, I value the opinions of everyone on here - after all, we've all got different experiences, and what's the point of using a forum like this if not for sharing those?!
 
With regard to your horse possibly slipping on the roads, why not try hoof boots (get some on ebay to keep cost down whilst experimenting!) over his shoes? That should give him a lot more grip and would allow you to determine if his odd gait is purely lack of confidence due to lack of grip. Depending on the results this may give your farrier ideas to work on, or alternatively just hack him out with boots over his shoes! Yes it does invalidate the boot warranty but I know a few people who use boots over shoes for various reasons without issues.
 
cm2581 said:
With regard to your horse possibly slipping on the roads, why not try hoof boots (get some on ebay to keep cost down whilst experimenting!) over his shoes? That should give him a lot more grip and would allow you to determine if his odd gait is purely lack of confidence due to lack of grip. Depending on the results this may give your farrier ideas to work on, or alternatively just hack him out with boots over his shoes! Yes it does invalidate the boot warranty but I know a few people who use boots over shoes for various reasons without issues.
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that's a good thought - *trundles off to scout ebay for bargains!*

cptrayes said:
Your reaction does you credit, what a good owner you are!
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thank you! I think that's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in ages! I can only do my best!:o
 
You may have considered this, but in my experience horses being awkward walking down hill is usually a sign of greenness or not really 'getting' sitting a bit & flexing the hocks, or of a horse who is finding the above difficult either because of a back issue or something sore
in the hocks.
I find it a great guide about a horses level of schooling or flexibility to ask it to march in a straight line down a hill without swinging quarters or shuffling. Are you sure he isn't sore somewhere, alternatively you may need to be more demanding when going down the hill. Currently you could be inadvertently encouraging the behaviour by letting him take the easier option because you think you think he's in pain...... just a thought.
 
Good thought Siennamum. A youngster brought up on a hillside would probably be more natural walker when being ridden downhill as they are used to the balance change (& ours cavort on a steep hill like it's not there). I knew a pony who had problems going downhill, & it turned out his professionally fitted saddle was digging into him, why he didn't want to stride out. Not saying your saddle doesn't fit, but try to show there can be varying reasons for horses not walking out well downhill. Do you pick the roughest part of the road for him to walk on to maximise his grip? Does he walk the same downhill when in hand?

I do agree totally with listening to your farrier. He is a professional with years of training & experience, who is open minded enough to try ideas. I know the argument about conditioning the feet, but question how long you can knowing leave a horse footsore. As you point out, he may have appeared sound by being lame in both feet. Try again in winter when the pressure isn't on you to get/keep him fit, but be looking for signs of soreness. What works well for some, doesn't mean it will work well for every horse. Most horses breeding is so far removed from their wild ancestors who had to survive without help.
 
When we were looking for alternative rear shoes, my farrier offered me rubber shoes on the back instead of metal. I bet they would be nice and grippy on the roads for you.
We didn't try them, just persevered with barefoot and I got some Boa boots for longer hacking, or if he is feeling bit footy, which are great. My horse was barefoot for a different reason to yours - he twists his back feet slightly and pulls his shoes off!
 
binkymerlin said:
too much too soon? have his feet had time to adjust to different surfaces? did you start him from square 1? just walking out in hand for 10 mins. im sorry but i dont think 6wks is long enuf :-/
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Agree with binkymerlin.

I have had to put shoes back onto my mare after being shoe free for 18months! I feel that I gave it a damm good go and to be honest I have only had her shod because we moved to a yard where it as difficult to maintain. She will be having them off again for the winter to giveher feet R&R.

What needs to appreciated in going barefoot for the first time is that you are takeing metal strutts off a foot that has not had to work itself or use it's own mechanics in years. The feet would of been left weak, soft and in poor condition both internally and externally.

TBH, to expect a horse that has alays been shod to then go merrily on it's way in less than 6 weeks is not realistic, or fair.
 
siennamum said:
You may have considered this, but in my experience horses being awkward walking down hill is usually a sign of greenness or not really 'getting' sitting a bit & flexing the hocks, or of a horse who is finding the above difficult either because of a back issue or something sore
in the hocks.
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^^ This ^^

My horse with spavins sometimes struggles to go downhill if he's feeling a bit stiff. IIRC you also mentioned that your horse walks on the outside of his hind feet - my vet tells me this is a classic sign of a horse with spavins as they walk on the outside to alleviate the pain.

Also agree with CPTrayes - try him again in winter when the ground is soft. I tried my horse without shoes this spring but he was crippled as the ground changed from a bog to concrete in a matter of days, giving him no time to get used to it. If I were to do it again, it would be over autumn/winter.
 
Can we get the message straight please for all those people querying working a footsore horse.

THE HORSE WAS NOT FOOTSORE

He had a bruised frog and neither the farrier nor the owner saw any footsoreness in work. There is a supposition that a couple of refusals showed that he was sore (in one foot, without it showing in his gait?) but he also had a novice rider on board (far more likely this, surely?)

The foot that was sore was the one he pulled a front shoe off for himself.

I only correct this because I am routinely being accused of encouraging people to continue to work sore horses as part of my barefoot evangelism (which I freely admit to), which is untrue.
 
6 weeks is not very long at all to expect the feet to adjust.

When I took the backs off my boy, I went on a 10 mile sponsored ride a few weeks later - his feet were a bit sore after that and I got told off by my farrier!

Fast forward a year and his feet are nice and hard and cope very well.

Patience is required when taking a horse barefoot.
 
thanks all...

His back and saddle are checked/treated/adjusted a minimum of every 6 months, more often if he changes shape or has problems.

He's 17 this year, so greenness on a slope is unlikely the problem, but I understand your point Siennamum - He's always working on a hill as that's all we have round here, and he has always done this weird walk when coming down the hill on the road. He's fine on any slope (shallow or very very steep) on any other surface. In fact, on very steep muddy tracks he actually locks his front legs out and paddles behind, steps over the ridge he creates and starts again. It's the oddest feeling when you're on board! :D

The vet always does a 3stage type work up on him before letting him have his jabs as part of his yearly MOT, so I'm pretty convinced there isn't any underlying problems in the joints.

I agree, 6 weeks isn't long, but it was what my farrier and I agreed to trying, and on examination at the end of that period we have concluded, temporarily at least, that it may not be for him and that we'll need to look at other options.
 
I hate to say it but i agree, i think you didnt leave it long enough, my 17hh eventer is barefoot and its great for him but its not instant at all, it takes a good 6 months or so to get hardened and you would def be better with hoof boots when they first come off. The other think your farrier should do is trim it a lot differently - the horse should not be landing heel first, that will cause bruising and blistering, if i were you i would decide whats best for you time wise and financially, and then if you decide to go barefoot again, go on to

http://www.uknhcp.org/ukpractitioners.html

and find a proper barefoot practitioner, its not that im slagging your farrier off its just these people are experts and i definately wouldnt have got through my horses barefoot transition without them

Hope that helps
 
bryony_equine said:
The other think your farrier should do is trim it a lot differently - the horse should not be landing heel first, that will cause bruising and blistering, if i were you i would decide whats best for you time wise and financially, and then if you decide to go barefoot again, go on to

http://www.uknhcp.org/ukpractitioners.html

and find a proper barefoot practitioner, its not that im slagging your farrier off its just these people are experts and i definately wouldnt have got through my horses barefoot transition without them

Hope that helps
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Bryony I'm sorry to correct you, but this is a very fundamental point. The whole ethos of the UKNHCP is to create a heel first landing. All my horses land heel first on all four feet, (though the back ones can look flat if you do not view in slomo) as do all the rehabbed horses at Rockley by the time they go home. A properly packed frog with good heel planes does not bruise with a heel first landing.
 
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