Hand/foot biting

[Possum]

Following on from my last thread about the small black dog my OH and I found dumped in a road last Friday night - unsurprisingly no one's come forward to claim her yet, and we've had a bit more time to get to know her...

She is a complete terrorist and as mad as a box of frogs! She doesn’t seem to have an ‘off’ switch and despite weighing less than 3kg and standing barely 9” high is a real handful!
She is a terrible thief (solution…keep everything more than a foot off the ground – problem solved)
She’s obviously been allowed to jump up and climb all over people, which really winds me up, but I think we’re slowly heading towards getting the ‘off’ command sorted.
The only thing that we’re really struggling with is that she is very prey-driven and will chase things in the garden and also annoyingly hands (for example if you go down to stroke her) and feet. There’s no aggression in her and it’s all just play, but apart from being really rude it also hurts when she gets over-enthusiastic! At the moment we are trying to keep tug-toys to hand to distract her if she goes for hands during play-time. We’ve been reprimanding her with an ‘ah ah’ or similar if she goes for your feet when we’re walking, and if she gets so hopelessly excited that none of this is working she gets locked out of the room for a time-out. Does this sound about right, and is there anything else we could do?
We’re also worried about the implications of this for her possible future living in the same house as our cat. There is still a barrier separating them, but I’m 99% sure that given the opportunity she will chase him. Is this fixable, or will we need to start thinking about other homes?

The other thing I’ve noticed is that when reprimanded, the lesson seems to stick for about 10 seconds before it’s forgotten again. So I can tell her off for biting my hand, she’ll back off and then leap straight back up again. I’m worried that this means that it doesn’t matter how often we reprimand her for chasing, she’ll do it again the second she ‘forgets’. On the other hand, she’s only been in the house 5 days, goodness knows what if any human contact she had in the past and she might calm right down in a month of 2. I’m sure someone here has experience of how long it takes dogs to adjust to ‘normal’ life after neglect, am I dreaming?

Sorry that ended up with more questions than I expected, all suggestions/comments gratefully received.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I would invest in a crate, covered with a rug or an airline crate where she can go to chill out, calm down, have her meals etc.

As regards reprimands, quitting commands etc - she doesn't know what this means, she has to learn. You're just saying a word, you might as well be saying 'fishcakes', then she is re-starting the game. You have to back the command or phrase up with something, either the withdrawl of a reward by whatever means, or a consequence, so that she learns.

What is 'playtime'?- for some dogs, playtime means getting wound up to buggery and then getting yelled at.

Go outside and chuck a ball for her, take her for a walk, do some training for food or something, then put her away. But keep everything calm. Rolling around on the floor might be a bit much for her at this stage.

Put a collar or harness on her and a light house line so you can gently pull her away from you, off the furniture etc without diving in with your hands for a collar.
If she going for hands and feet when you are walking along, use the line to physically prevent her from doing so.

She needs physical boundaries and strong guidance from you so that she can learn what is what - she won't know instinctively.

 

[Possum]

Thanks for the reply

She has a crate, but because we are currently trying to build up as many positive associations as possible with it, we're not putting her for 'time-outs' in there - can definitely start though.

'Playtime' has been time spent playing with her ball. She gets so over-excited that she will start diving at your feet or going for your hands when you bend to pick it up. Definitely no rolling around on the floor going on, being jumped on really winds me up!

Light line is a very good idea for keeping her away from our feet and moving her without our hands getting in the way, will get that sorted, thanks.

Regarding the reprimand/quitting command, we have been trying to reinforce it with either stopping play (in which case she goes for your feet) or 'time-outs' but it sounds as if we need to be even stricter.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

 

[CorvusCorax]

There are a few items that send my dog totally nuts, a green squashy ball and a yellow foam frisbee. He is completely unable to focus on anything else if he sees them and I have a hard time getting him to let go of them. So I have put them away!
Try using something a little less 'high' to begin with...maybe a Kong bone, something which does not roll and move about as much.

I never 'play' with the dog in the house - that's for outside. Inside is for lazing around and chilling out. Plus our house is too small for any mental stuff!

My dog has a tendency to be frantic, and takes fast movement as a 'reward' - so all my movements when he is in one of his silly moods are very slow, calm and deliberate and I only reward him (with a bit of food or a pat) when he is calm and reward him slowly!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I agree with everything CaveCanem have said, but I would prefer to say that it depends on the dog (and sometimes the owner), if it is okay to play indoors with a dog. It works for some, but for others, it works best to only play outdoors with their dog.

As she gets used to living with you and your OH, maybe she'll become a little calmer, and learn to remember eventual reprimands for longer than a few seconds etc., but maybe not. I've heard of some dogs that have changed and some that haven't, maybe only time can tell.


When she gets over-excited, have you tried listening to the tone in your own voice? Most dogs that I've met, listens a lot more on the tone of our voices than what many humans think. Especially before they have learnt that this or that word/command = human wants me to do so or so, but afterwards too. I've heard more than one dog owner trying to get their dog to listen to them, with a tone in their voice that have made me think "Your dog are listening to you! But they're listening to what the tone in your voice are telling them, not your actual words." And even though I know this, I'm not perfect, it has happened before and will probably happen again, that my bitches doesn't do as I tell them, and in hindsight I realize that I have only myself to blame, because my bitches only did what the tone in my voice told them to do.

For example, it is unlikely that an owner will make a dog calm down by saying "CALM DOWN!", if the tone in the voice is actually telling them "I'M REALLY TENSE AND STRESSED!"

Another example is that most dogs is quicker to learn to respond to a recall, if it is a female owner with a higher pitched voice who are calling them, compared to a male owner with a lower pitched voice. So if you're training recall, a higher pitched tone in the voice is good, but in general, a higher pitched tone in the voice = get excited!

Especially now in the beginning, ideally try to break the situation, before you think that she will become over-excited. But if/when it happens that she does become over-excited, maybe you could try and take some deep breaths, maybe make yourself a mental image of sloths, before you speak, with an as calm, soothing voice as possible.

If you're already talking with a very calm, soothing voice, maybe you would be interested in reading Turid Rugaas book On talking terms with dogs: Calming signals? Here is a link to a Kindle edition on Amazon, that allows you to have a sneak peak at some of the content. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Talking-Ter...RK44/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394121863&sr=8-1


About the cat, is it likely that the cat might give the dog a swat with a paw if he get annoyed? Using a line so that you can stop her from chasing the cat sounds like a good idea, but I would perhaps also try to show her that he is also part of the family. Preferably choosing a time when your dog is a little tired and calm, and then perhaps feed the cat so that she can see it, and sit with him in your knee and pat him, so that she can see it. Remember that sometimes, even dogs with very high prey drive, can learn that family cats belongs to the family and is a No No to chase.

 

[Possum]

I've typed out 2 long replies now and both times HHO has eaten them!

So the brief version is - you are both brilliant, thanks a million, she is getting better, officially ours and has clearly been beaten up by a cat before so actually that's looking to be far less of an issue than we'd thought.

I've been referring back to both your replies again and again over the weekend and they have been invaluable. Thanks again

 

[Alec Swan]

......., she is getting better, officially ours and has clearly been beaten up by a cat before so actually that's looking to be far less of an issue than we'd thought.

.........

So, from what you say she's learned how to show a cat some respect, has she? I'd suggest that she now learns exactly the same lesson, and by exactly the same route, but this time, from you. :wink3:

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

So, from what you say she's learned how to show a cat some respect, has she? I'd suggest that she now learns exactly the same lesson, and by exactly the same route, but this time, from you. :wink3:

Alec.

But wouldn't that be cruel?

 

[Possum]

So, from what you say she's learned how to show a cat some respect, has she? I'd suggest that she now learns exactly the same lesson, and by exactly the same route, but this time, from you. :wink3:

Alec.

So you're saying...hiss at the dog, growl then scratch her up badly if she doesn't heed the warning...all in the sake of 'training'. Although I'm pleased that this particular lesson seems to have been learnt without our help, I'm more inclined to continue encouraging the calm behaviour, which is already having a noticeable effect on improving the decisions she makes. She's not stupid, but for the first few days was too manic and hyped up to be able to think.

 

[Alec Swan]

Perhaps Possum, you could try blinking at your dog slowly, as another previously suggested, that should calm her down. Or, if you don't have much faith in that one, how about trying treats? It never fails, so I'm told.

Alec.

 

[Possum]

Perhaps Possum, you could try blinking at your dog slowly, as another previously suggested, that should calm her down. Or, if you don't have much faith in that one, how about trying treats? It never fails, so I'm told.

Alec.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at...but will humour you for now. I believe I was clear enough in my previous posts, but let's try again.

Calming down and being 100% conscious of how our body language, tone of voice etc is coming across IS working. I am grateful for the advice that CC and FL have given because it has resulted in a huge improvement to her attitude and things are starting to stick.

I'm not sure why you have seen fit to try and persuade me that your method (that you haven't actually come out and explained, have you, aside from 'clever' little comments) is preferable.

FWIW, and not that I'm sure why I'm justifying myself to you, we're not really using treats to the extent that I have done with previous dogs. She was starved until 10 days ago and bringing food out triggers the frantic response.

 

[Goldenstar]

I glad it's going better .
It's great that a cat has trained her , I hate cat chasers , my cat sorted out my friends terrier puppy , boy has she learned the lesson and my other friends rescue spaniel .
Is she going to be an only dog or do you have others ?
My dog are labs and I admit easy , but I can stop a manic game by going stiff and changing my stance and giving them the ' look '.
They all just get into their beds or sit if out and about .
In six months you will be in a very different place .
Good luck lucky little dog .

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I've typed out 2 long replies now and both times HHO has eaten them!

So the brief version is - you are both brilliant, thanks a million, she is getting better, officially ours and has clearly been beaten up by a cat before so actually that's looking to be far less of an issue than we'd thought.

I've been referring back to both your replies again and again over the weekend and they have been invaluable. Thanks again

Sorry to hear about your replies going *poof* instead of being posted. I have no idea about what causes it, but it happens to me too sometimes, so I periodically get the habit of highlighting my replies and copying it (Ctrl + C), before clicking the Post Quick Reply or Go Advanced-buttons. If my reply then goes *poof*, I can just paste it back (Ctrl + V).

But woohoo to the rest of your reply!

Woohoo that she is officially yours! Woohoo that it is going onwards and upwards! And woohoo for the unknown cat that taught her to respect cats, and that the cat issue does not seem to be much of a cat issue!

Thank you for the update, and I'm glad to hear that you found something useful in my and CaveCanem's replies.




P.s. Since Alec Swan's first reply ended with a wink smiley, I would personally have taken his suggestion with a pinch of salt. On the other hand, I'm not alien to using something that perhaps is similar to what he described, because even though I only use it very, very rarely, my bitches knows that if I growl towards them, they've crossed my line and I'm serious.


P.p.s. My mother always says that on the occasions when I'm talking to her about times when my bitches haven't done what I wanted, I always begin with telling her that it only happened because in hindsight I realize that I had the wrong tone in my voice, that my body language told them something else than what I intended for it to say, that I forgot to react the way I usually remember is the correct way to react etc. Basically, their fault is my fault.

If I remain calm, my bitches knows that they can stay calm. If the tone in my voice is the right one (for the situation), then my body language is usually the right one too, and if those things are saying the same thing as I'm telling them with my words, it is so much easier for them to do right, and it is so much more likely that they do what I want.

 

[Arizahn]

Crate her when she gets hyper. Do not look at her or talk to her - just pop her in the crate and ignore her completely until she is calm. Then allow her to rejoin the group, but keep ignoring her. If she gets excited again, put her back in the crate. Only praise her when she is actually being calm, and then just a quiet "good dog".

No toys in the house, absolutely no games that involve tug, and try to get her locked onto a particular toy that you can then teach her to see as her job to fetch etc. Fetch is a wonderful job for a small dog. Just make sure you teach her to drop the toy and then sit or lie quietly whilst you pick it up. Avoid tug.

Raw diet. Having owned a mad as a box of frogs type dog, I can attest to this helping more than anything else. Doesn't need to be gross either. Start with frozen mince and chicken wings, and feed outside if preferred.

Kongs stuffed with peanut butter are also good, just don't get fooled into playing fetch with these, as they bounce very, very far!

Leave being a cat to the professionals, it takes years to become a cat. I should know - I have owned cats for over twenty years now, currently have seven of the little terrors, and I still can't climb a curtain to a satisfactory level My mousing is improving, as they keep bringing me live ones to chase...

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Crate her when she gets hyper. Do not look at her or talk to her - just pop her in the crate and ignore her completely until she is calm. Then allow her to rejoin the group, but keep ignoring her. If she gets excited again, put her back in the crate. Only praise her when she is actually being calm, and then just a quiet "good dog".

No toys in the house, absolutely no games that involve tug, and try to get her locked onto a particular toy that you can then teach her to see as her job to fetch etc. Fetch is a wonderful job for a small dog. Just make sure you teach her to drop the toy and then sit or lie quietly whilst you pick it up. Avoid tug.

Raw diet. Having owned a mad as a box of frogs type dog, I can attest to this helping more than anything else. Doesn't need to be gross either. Start with frozen mince and chicken wings, and feed outside if preferred.

Kongs stuffed with peanut butter are also good, just don't get fooled into playing fetch with these, as they bounce very, very far!

Leave being a cat to the professionals, it takes years to become a cat. I should know - I have owned cats for over twenty years now, currently have seven of the little terrors, and I still can't climb a curtain to a satisfactory level My mousing is improving, as they keep bringing me live ones to chase...

But hypothetically, if it is you that is making your dog hyper excited, through e.g. speaking with a high pitched, chirpy voice, probably in combination with a tense/excited body language, then the dog is only being hyper because it is responding to your signals. I don't view all crate training as punishment, but in that hypothetical scenario, to use the crate for a time-out, sounds to me like unfairly punishing the dog for responding to your signals. And if anyone deserves a time-out in that scenario, I personally think that it is the owner who should be getting a time-out.

People should of course do what works for them, but I see using a crate for time-outs as a last resort. I prefer to first think through if I'm the one causing the hyper behaviour, if I'm not the cause, then I can still try to tell my dog that they can be calm in so or so situation, because I am calm in the same situation. If that does not work, e.g. there is simple body language signals in Turid Rugaas book that you could use to try and tell a dog to calm down, or that you're ignoring them. Alternatively, the later could be done without any specific body language, by simply just stop giving them attention etc.

Besides, if you use the crate as your first choice of dealing with a dog that becomes hyper excited, what do you do if the dog becomes hyper excited while you're out on a walk? Drag the crate with you on every dog walk?


I don't know if I'm any good at being a cat, but according to my mother, Cilla the cat have given me so many live mice to practise on, that I (in the situation where I want to catch them, and they're not wanting to be caught) can think like a mouse, therefore there is not a mouse I can not catch. But then she is my mother and is probably exaggerating, but if I may say so myself, I am quite good at catching live, wild mice who has been brought indoors by a cat.

 

[Arizahn]

The use of a crate or gate for a timeout works really well for breaking the cycle of hyperness, as the human has to be calm and quiet too. So really you are training both. The dog over reacts, the human places a boundary for a short period and both parties calm down. Better perhaps five minutes in a crate than an hour of constantly saying no, and getting nowhere, iyswim.

It is very hard to remain calm when the dog is literally bouncing off the walls and wetting itself. And sorry, but saying "no" won't work once the dog has reached this point. Dog is now in its own happy little world of bouncing and weeing and barking...humans have ceased to register. Dogs aren't that daft, give them a chance to calm down and they usually will! And it should only be a short term thing anyhow, until the dog learns to react less exuberantly and the humans learn how to best behave around the dog Used as a mutual time out, the crate is fine. There should be a nice blanket in there that smells familiar. It should be cosy and safe.

I'm choosing to assume that the OP isn't actually jumping around shrieking and that the dog is just overwhelmed and a little too happy and doesn't know how to behave yet. So it will benefit from a chance to calm down as opposed to bouncing about and feeding off its own excitement. If you are jumping around shrieking OP, then you get in the crate. Obviously.

I use a dog gate instead of a crate, btw. Mine could clear it from a sitting start, and the collie can open it anyhow, so they only stay behind it because they respect that they have been told to. It also allows me to take Little Blind Dog aside to recover his bearings if he has a funny turn. He was blind and deaf until he was about six months old, then he gained his hearing. A lot of his training is based on touch and smell, and also taste. Ironically, the damage to his optic nerves has been repaired now, but he is so used to not seeing that he often still refuses to use his eyes. We are working on teaching him to look at things

Regarding excitement on walks, that is why having a favourite toy is useful. And a long line. And infinite patience. And the ability to avoid the people who encourage the dog to jump up at them, or who run towards you shrieking "PUPPY!!!"...there will be hundreds of these. Mobile crates would be brilliant, especially if they were armed!

Anyhow, I just thought I would share, as our first dog was very much as the OP described, and she was very hard to manage. She did eventually improve, and we learned a lot from her. I will bog off now and leave you to your debate.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The use of a crate or gate for a timeout works really well for breaking the cycle of hyperness, as the human has to be calm and quiet too. So really you are training both. The dog over reacts, the human places a boundary for a short period and both parties calm down. Better perhaps five minutes in a crate than an hour of constantly saying no, and getting nowhere, iyswim.

It is very hard to remain calm when the dog is literally bouncing off the walls and wetting itself. And sorry, but saying "no" won't work once the dog has reached this point. Dog is now in its own happy little world of bouncing and weeing and barking...humans have ceased to register. Dogs aren't that daft, give them a chance to calm down and they usually will! And it should only be a short term thing anyhow, until the dog learns to react less exuberantly and the humans learn how to best behave around the dog Used as a mutual time out, the crate is fine. There should be a nice blanket in there that smells familiar. It should be cosy and safe.

I'm choosing to assume that the OP isn't actually jumping around shrieking and that the dog is just overwhelmed and a little too happy and doesn't know how to behave yet. So it will benefit from a chance to calm down as opposed to bouncing about and feeding off its own excitement. If you are jumping around shrieking OP, then you get in the crate. Obviously.

I use a dog gate instead of a crate, btw. Mine could clear it from a sitting start, and the collie can open it anyhow, so they only stay behind it because they respect that they have been told to. It also allows me to take Little Blind Dog aside to recover his bearings if he has a funny turn. He was blind and deaf until he was about six months old, then he gained his hearing. A lot of his training is based on touch and smell, and also taste. Ironically, the damage to his optic nerves has been repaired now, but he is so used to not seeing that he often still refuses to use his eyes. We are working on teaching him to look at things

Regarding excitement on walks, that is why having a favourite toy is useful. And a long line. And infinite patience. And the ability to avoid the people who encourage the dog to jump up at them, or who run towards you shrieking "PUPPY!!!"...there will be hundreds of these. Mobile crates would be brilliant, especially if they were armed!

Anyhow, I just thought I would share, as our first dog was very much as the OP described, and she was very hard to manage. She did eventually improve, and we learned a lot from her. I will bog off now and leave you to your debate.

I obviously did not made it clear enough what I meant, if you think that I think that it is better to say No this, No that, No this, No that, No this, No that etc. for an hour, rather than give the dog a time-out (in a crate/puppy pen/another room) for 5 minutes. That is definitely not what I meant, but if you can change the situation at once, in less than 5 minutes or even stop it from occurring in the first place, by adjusting your own behaviour/sending out different signals to your dog, then I think that is a simpler solution than a 5 minutes time-out.
And if adjusting your own behaviour works as a solution, it also has the huge benefit of that you take your own behaviour with you everywhere, it is always available to be used. Unlike a crate, which even if it is mobile, and you actually decided to carry it with you, also has to be packed up and down, before and after use.

In the beginning of the 90's, softer training methods really began to become popular at Swedish dog clubs, and I met some dog trainers who thought that when praising a dog, the dog owner must let their body language show how happy they got if e.g. the dog sat down when you said "Sit", and that the owner should always sound maximally chirpy when saying "Good boy/girl!" (or similar phrases), often also preferably in a high pitched tone. And whenever I did try to praise especially one of my bitches in the really happy and excited way which my dog trainers wanted, my bitch exploded in happiness, bouncing around in hyper excitement and did not listen to me at all for a good while.

Eventually I realised that I was making my bitches training more difficult than it needed to be, and that it was in fact the tone in my voice/my body language that was the most common trigger for when my bitches became hyper excited. And even in situations where I wasn't the trigger, the tone in my voice/my body language did often nothing to help to make them calm down, without more likely the opposite.
When I began to first focus more on my own behaviour, and only secondly on theirs behaviour, they overall became a lot calmer. And when other things triggered them to begin to get too excited, they listened more to me.

So you see, I also have my reasons for why I'm suggesting beginning with having a look at the dog owner's behaviour. I'm not saying that dog owners should never use time-outs as an aid in training, in the right time and place it can be very effective, and I know that time-outs is an aid that works very well for some dog owners.
And I'm not saying that it is always the owner's behaviour who is triggering or fuelling their dog to become/be hyper excited, but I do think it happens more often than people think, therefore it sounds logical to me, to try and start with seeing if there is anything that could be changed in the owner's behaviour and see if that leads to any improvement.

But that is the thing with a forum, you write your replies based on your experiences and what has worked for you, I write my replies based on my experiences and what has worked for me.