Hand hold required!

[tatty_v]

This morning I felt like giving up on our IDx as he is just such hard work.

If he isn’t eating every waking second of the day then he is hangry and irritating. His crest is huge again, despite being out in the day only on poor pasture (so many dandelions and weeds!) muzzled and on soaked hay (plus ad lib straw). He can’t have more food as he had severe laminitis in his previous home on multiple occasions. I feel like the threat of that hangs over me all the time.

He has itched his crest (possible sweet itch (despite being covered up always and liberally doused in deosect), possibly just inflammation in the fat cells according to vet) and damaged the skin, so I’m treating that.

He is so filthy in the stable. On a straw bed, he just eats it all and then lies in the filth. On a shavings or pellet bed he walks it into a filthy mush and the lies in it. This is despite having Shetland company in a pen within his stable (who he adores) and sufficient straw in a net to eat that there’s leftovers every morning. This morning he was just plastered in muck again. We are having to anti bac his hooves to prevent bacteria travelling up the old nail holes as he constantly stands in muck. This is despite him having a huge stable. It’s not so much mucking out, as muck clearance. He takes me twice as long as the other two to do, and a massive bale of straw lasts me a week and a half if I’m lucky. Despite his restricted intake, he seems to poo at least double the amount of the Connie, despite them being a similar size and the Connie being unmuzzled.

To ride he’s ok. Not going to set the world alight, and not a great solo hack (OH doesn’t mind so much but I don’t enjoy it).

I think I need a hand hold because this morning I felt like I’d reached the end of my tether! I think there’s a limit to the amount of muck I can scrub off before I go officially mad. The Connie and the Shetland cause me nothing like as much trouble!

We can’t make material changes to his management (eg out 24/7 or track system) due to the need to restrict his grass intake, plus the needs of the other two (can’t have electric fencing as the Connie just jumps out and causes chaos/the Shetland bulldozes it!) I said to OH the other day, ideally he’d be on a woodchip paddock all spring/summer on soaked hay only, but we don’t have the funds to do that, and he’d probably end up yelling to the others all day anyway.

I gather from his previous owner that he has always been thus, so there’s little chance of change. In reality he’s stuck with us now but my god he is driving me nuts! Please tell me I’m not the only one with a high maintenance filth bag?!

 

[Melody Grey]

The wood chip pen or a makeshift version sound like a lifeline?

 

[Melody Grey]

…maybe a convincing argument would be that the time be straw you’ll save will fund it?!

 

[Tarragon]

He does sound like hard work! It must be a bit soul depressing.
I can't help feeling that the answer to some of your woes is to exercise more. Perhaps just go out for long slow rides and work on building his ability to go out solo. Or perhaps set a goal to do some endurance rides with friends. If he was ridden more, I think his obsession with food would be easier to handle. If he was coming back everyday, tired after an energising and invigorating ride, he might just eat something then snooze. It would re-balance his life. Plus, the exercise in itself would be hugely beneficial.

 

[dorsetladette]

I don't think you are the only one. according to a local vet the spring grass growth is the best/worst its ever been. So alot of people are on laminitis watch at the moment.

I'm suffering from my own hard work at the moment. I've spent years improving my grazing in the hope that it would save my in the long run on feed. But now I have a fat pony and paranoid about hot feet and lami.

regarding wood chip - we did a woodchip pen pretty cheaply. A local tree surgeon was more than happy to tip a few loads of woodchip in our gateway for free as it usually costs them to dump it. maybe call around local companies to you, the worst they can say is no!

 

[Fransurrey]

Has he been tested for EMS? Sounds like my old boy. I couldn't restrict either (livery constraints and my other pony destroyed fences), so they had soaked hay out in the paddock and were muzzled. This kept them occupied, restricted grass without restricting turnout (24/7 grass, but would work equally with a stabled horse) and there was less chance of laminitis rearing its ugly head. I know you say 24/7 won't work, but doing this may work if you switch to daytime stabling and out overnight with muzzle/soaked hay.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Would it be possible to find an energetic sharer who would exercise him (a lot) a few times a week in exchange for mucking him out those days?

 

[meleeka]

My cob was the same. I lost him last year aged 25 and I really miss him, but he’s put me off cobs for life! He was amazing in many ways (the thing we miss most is how good he was with my shetland who’s probably never going to have a friend that patient and kind again), but he was as like a messy child with no grace or standards.

I was able to put up a track for mine which did help enormously and meant I didn’t have to muzzle either. Through the winter he’d have no trouble eating a bale of hay a night, so had to be separated so the others didn’t lose weight while he gained it.

 

[Bonnie Allie]

Has he been tested for EMS? Sounds like my old boy. I couldn't restrict either (livery constraints and my other pony destroyed fences), so they had soaked hay out in the paddock and were muzzled. This kept them occupied, restricted grass without restricting turnout (24/7 grass, but would work equally with a stabled horse) and there was less chance of laminitis rearing its ugly head. I know you say 24/7 won't work, but doing this may work if you switch to daytime stabling and out overnight with muzzle/soaked hay.

my mind went straight to EMS as well. If he is hungry and irritable all the time maybe get his bloods done again?

If it’s any consolation our bargy, always hungry mare was borderline EMS years ago at age 13. We managed it via exercise and really changed her metabolic rate for the better. The food focus and attitude changed completely.

 

[scats]

I feel your pain, I really do.
I love Polly (leg snapping incident aside) but I can see why she was passed from pillar to post prior to me owning her. She’s a total nightmare in a stable- box walks, mulches the bed. She is beyond filthy and costs me a fortune. She’s a nightmare in the summer because she goes puffy eyed as soon as spring comes and it’s a constant battle of muzzles, soaked hay, gut wrenching anxiety etc. She can only do walk and trot as she has chronic PSD and even then you are stuck in the manège because hacking her is, well, leg snapping territory, so keeping her exercised enough to counter balance the EMS is a pain.
She is used to Millie going out to be ridden but if anything happens out of the ordinary, like tomorrow my vet Chiro is coming, Polly will fire poo at the walls and run around her stable screaming because Millie has left the box ‘out of routine’. I’ll have to take her bed out after it and start again.
Try to brush her? Walk a lap of the stable, brush, walk another lap, brush. Same tacking up. All with the sweetest angelic expression on her face, she’s honestly like a smiling assassin!
My vet says she’s one of the oddest horses he’s ever met and I don’t think it was a compliment
Honestly, if I had any sense I’d send her to horsey heaven but she seems happy enough in her own strange little world so while she’s coping EMS wise, she can stick around. I’m afraid if she gets laminitis again though, like a couple of years ago, it will be curtains for her.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I second the EMS possibilities. Read up on type 2 diabetes, because that's basically what EMS is. Food restriction is not the answer, you just end up with a hungry impatient horse with poor digestion, instead concentrate on slowing down the amount of food he can take in, and try to replicate trickle feeding. A grazing muzzle 24/7 if turned out, means he has to work to keep himself from being hungry. Double net his forage, but don't reduce the amount he should be having. Bear in mind that his 'off' button to tell him to stop eating probably does not work because everything is out of balance. Exercise daily, enough to keep him fit and work off what he is taking in. No magic fix I'm afraid, it can be damned hard work keeping the balance right, but very rewarding when it comes right. Good luck, hope you find a happy solution.

 

[SantaVera]

I feel your pain I am the end of my tether with my EMS cob. I have a possible loaner lined up but if she doesn't take him soon he will be PTS I just can't cope anymore.

 

[PurBee]

I’d personally cut out all straw for bedding and feed, unless you get it confirmed it‘s organic and didnt receive a glyphosate crop drying spray pre-harvest.

1 million hectares of uk wheat and barley crops get glyphosate pre-harvest spray - which means the straw stalks used for bedding and feed are coated in the chemical.

Glyphosate is an endocrine disruptor - here a quote from another thread i posted on with a link to a study about metabolic disease association with glyphosate:

Considering glyphosate is an endocrine disruptor, i wouldnt ideally want any horse consuming the product/grass (no matter what the manufacturers say!) , let alone one with established endocrine issues:

Impact of Glyphosate on the Development of Insulin Resistance in Experimental Diabetic Rats: Role of NFκB Signalling Pathways

Glyphosate, an endocrine disruptor, has an adverse impact on human health through food and also has the potential to produce reactive oxygen species (ROS), which can lead to metabolic diseases. Glyphosate consumption from food has been shown to have a substantial part in insulin resistance...

www.mdpi.com

“Abstract​

Glyphosate, an endocrine disruptor, has an adverse impact on human health through food and also has the potential to produce reactive oxygen species (ROS), which can lead to metabolic diseases. Glyphosate consumption from food has been shown to have a substantial part in insulin resistance, making it a severe concern to those with type 2 diabetes (T2DM). However, minimal evidence exists on how glyphosate impacts insulin-mediated glucose oxidation in the liver. Hence the current study was performed to explore the potential of glyphosate toxicity on insulin signaling in the liver of experimental animals. For 16 weeks, male albino Wistar rats were given 50 mg, 100 mg and 250 mg/kg b. wt. of glyphosate orally. In the current study, glyphosate exposure group was linked to a rise in fasting sugar and insulin as well as a drop in serum testosterone. At the same time, in a dose dependent fashion, glyphosate exposure showed alternations in glucose metabolic enzymes. Glyphosate exposure resulted in a raise in H2O2 formation, LPO and a reduction in antioxidant levels those results in impact on membrane integrity and insulin receptor efficacy in the liver. It also registered a reduced levels of mRNA and protein expression of insulin receptor (IR), glucose transporter-2 (GLUT2) with concomitant increase in the production of proinflammatory factors such as JNK, IKKβ, NFkB, IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α as well as transcriptional factors like SREBP1c and PPAR-γ leading to pro-inflammation and cirrhosis in the liver which results in the development of insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Our present findings for the first time providing an evidence that exposure of glyphosate develops insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes by aggravating NFkB signaling pathway in liver.”

(Hopefully the link will load correctly in the above quote, if not ill post it again)


I emailed ‘top chop’ about their straw products they market for lami-prone/obese horses asking if their straw is glyphosate-free and they replied advising they cannot guarantee it is free from glyphosate as they dont test for it, and to find other suppliers of confirmed organic straw if i really wanted to be sure to feed glyphosate-free straw.

It’s becoming concerning that the equine industry-wide solution to feed EMS/lami-prone metabolically challenged horses is to use straw as hay replacement - the one and only forage product that is more likely to have glyphosate used and adversely affect already metabolically-challenged horses.

Reversing metabolic diseases isnt discussed so widely in the equine world - but considering horses eat forage 24/7 pretty much, it makes sense to at least limit forages that are sprayed with glyphosate at least, considering the ever increasing studies regarding its endocrine and metabolic effects.

As you say he is a mess bugger whether on straw or shavings, its best to trial a switch to shavings, and cut out straw. His volume of poops will be vastly more than others because straw has lots more indigestible fibre compared to other forages, which then gets excreted as waste. So a switch to shavings will have you dealing with less volume of poops.

Alongside cutting out the straw intake, I’d pop him on a multi-strain prebiotic from equibiome. It’s to encourage the proliferation of a variety of gut microbes to assimilate food more effectively. (there are studies of intestinal flora altered by glyphosate so its likely gut balance goes out of whack on straw too)
If food can be assimilated more effectively, he’ll feel satisfied by eating.

EquiBiome Prebiotic | equibiome

EquiBiome Prebiotic. Promoting a healthy normal microbiome, the only prebiotic that has been developed using information from the study of the 16s rRNA sequencing of the gut bacteria populations of 1,000’s of horses. Recommended for all horses. The EquiBiome prebiotic is formulated to improve...

www.equibiome.org

With endocrine metabolic issues of insulin dysregulation - the pancreatic endocrine system cannot put enough sugar energy into the cells for fuel, so the calories get stored as fat on the body, and in the organs. No matter how much sugar is eaten, the body struggles to get it into cells to be used as fuel. A metabolic horse is likely to have fatigue, behavioural issues likely, due to allover fatigue.

I’d stick with the soaked hay for now and see how elimination of straw and addition of gut prebiotics help this summer. You may find he could handle unsoaked hay next winter if his metabolic system is able to re-balance and regulate/absorb carb intake better.


I discovered this for myself years ago when my horse suddenly experienced lami episodes despite not being obese/ems, and had solid (bare)feet. The changes made were commonly sprayed crops. I used straw at one time, then used non-edible bedding, then back on straw. Everytime i switched bedding lami-attacks would follow. This was years ago, yo-yoing with mild lami-attacks. It took a while to figure out it was bedding ingestion and not the hay/grass. (i spent ages changing to low sugar hays/feeds etc, for there to be no change while using straw as bedding)
I then discovered the straw/glyphosate link but have since researched it more deeply for years to gain a better understanding.

I tried rapestraw bedding, and another vicious lami attack followed immediately by all horses on the yard after they ate it. The supplier said it was unpalatable and they ate the whole fresh bag laid onto shavings - i couldnt believe it! There’s barely any sugar in that stuff - just indigestible fibre mainly.
(This is an interesting observation,
Rapeseed is even more commonly sprayed with glyphosate pre-harvest in the uk than even barley or wheat crops.
( some commercial flax bedding maybe sprayed also to dry-out the crop pre-harvest, hence why fir wood shavings are best as they are not sprayed and kiln dried)

Both these horses can fill themselves to bursting on grass and unsoaked hay and not have lami attack issues. They dont have established EMS so i was able to witness the effects of sprayed straw/rapestraw on ‘virgin organic’ youngish horse guts/bodies.
The common denominator linking their lami attacks was not sugar, but glyphosate sprayed stalky crops.

As your horse has an established EMS condition with cresty neck etc, the best you can try to do would be to eliminate his access to straw/rapestraw products. How his system will be able to re-balance itself is currently unknown as this area of study is in it’s infancy currently. Everyone is focused on keeping sugar low while the proverbial elephant in the room, glyphosate, is still being fed, causing metabolic disruption. All we do know is if we trial glyphosate-free feeds/bedding, the body then has a chance to try to re-balance itself.

 

[Melody Grey]

Re: the straw munching/insatiable hunger- have ulcers/hind gut ulcers/acidosis been considered? Some will chomp down anything in large quantities to try to relieve the discomfort.

 

[SEL]

rubber matts with just a few shavings in a corner for him to pee on?

My EMS & PSSM one is in limited work due to injuries but is out 24:7 on a grass track with the two ponies. I have a lot of electric fencing and good energisers. I find it a open a strip every day it makes the ponies think they are getting food and she gets to join in with her muzzle on. When the strip is eaten down she can have her muzzle off and hunt for bits of grass. Magnesium for the crest. A few piles of hay in case anyone is actually hungry and they all eat hedgerows.

She was on topchop zero and kwik beet for years until I had problems getting hold of feed. She then got a tiny amount of grass pellets and grass chaff with the ponies and is looking the best she ever has. I know weedkillers are used in the production of both and I have no idea if that's part of the issue but she can stay on grass pellets and chaff now - takes up less bins in the feed room.

 

[tatty_v]

Thank you so much for the replies, some really interesting food for thought (and a relief to hear others have the same battles!)

Re: EMS, I don’t think we’ve tested for this but it’s definitely something I can ask the vet about. We blood tested him when he first arrived to see how close we were to another laminitis episode, but haven’t tested since.

Upping the exercise is definitely do-able now the nights are lighter. OH can hack and I can speak to the lady who rode him whilst I was pregnant to see if she’d like to school him again a couple of days a week.

We did investigate ulcers and found nothing, so I think we’re ok on that count.

I did have him on a gut supplement initially as he had faecal water syndrome when he first came to us, but it didn’t seem to do much and the issue resolved long after I stopped feeding it. I’ll look into the equibiome one though he’s on a balancer at the moment that does contain yeast probiotics but perhaps it’s not agreeing with him.

Really interesting re: the straw and sprays. We moved to straw as I just couldn’t justify the cost of shavings (we get straw free from OH’s dad) given the volume we were using. We have found that he doesn’t eat half as much if he’s bedded on wheat straw (as opposed to barley) so OH’s dad has agreed to bale the wheat straw for me this year (he usually sticks to barley for the horses as it’s just nicer!) l don’t know what he sprays with but I can find out.

He’s such a nice horse in the winter!

 

[Clodagh]

Most wheat is not sprayed, only if there are real issues with it naturally dying off. Sprays are expensive and farmers don’t chuck them about if they’ve no need to. There are also restrictions on using glyphosate willy nilly.

 

[tatty_v]

I feel your pain, I really do.
I love Polly (leg snapping incident aside) but I can see why she was passed from pillar to post prior to me owning her. She’s a total nightmare in a stable- box walks, mulches the bed. She is beyond filthy and costs me a fortune. She’s a nightmare in the summer because she goes puffy eyed as soon as spring comes and it’s a constant battle of muzzles, soaked hay, gut wrenching anxiety etc. She can only do walk and trot as she has chronic PSD and even then you are stuck in the manège because hacking her is, well, leg snapping territory, so keeping her exercised enough to counter balance the EMS is a pain.
She is used to Millie going out to be ridden but if anything happens out of the ordinary, like tomorrow my vet Chiro is coming, Polly will fire poo at the walls and run around her stable screaming because Millie has left the box ‘out of routine’. I’ll have to take her bed out after it and start again.
Try to brush her? Walk a lap of the stable, brush, walk another lap, brush. Same tacking up. All with the sweetest angelic expression on her face, she’s honestly like a smiling assassin!
My vet says she’s one of the oddest horses he’s ever met and I don’t think it was a compliment
Honestly, if I had any sense I’d send her to horsey heaven but she seems happy enough in her own strange little world so while she’s coping EMS wise, she can stick around. I’m afraid if she gets laminitis again though, like a couple of years ago, it will be curtains for her.

The Connie has severe separation anxiety and is very much a heart on sleeve person - ID went out for a hack on Sunday and although having his Shetland meant he didn’t jump out, he stood and shouted at me in the kitchen until the ID came back and in his mind, order was restored so between my two it sounds like a very similar situation to yours! Ever ask ourselves why we do it?!

 

[foxy1]

A friend has had her obese horse diagnosed with EMS, the weight just would not shift despite all management, so vet described a course of Ertugliflozin, and it has been a miracle for her horse. He has now lost his crest and fat pads and she is able to manage him on a little grass and soaked hay. It has been a lifesaver for her horse.

 

[scats]

The Connie has severe separation anxiety and is very much a heart on sleeve person - ID went out for a hack on Sunday and although having his Shetland meant he didn’t jump out, he stood and shouted at me in the kitchen until the ID came back and in his mind, order was restored so between my two it sounds like a very similar situation to yours! Ever ask ourselves why we do it?!

The dealer I got Polly off did tell me that she hated her in the stable and I can see why Trouble is, she’s the sweetest little mare, there genuinely isn’t a bad bone in her and even when she’s been irritating, she’s just angelic looking
God knows what’s happened to her previously, when I got her you could barely touch her without her twitching or running in circles around you. We actually have a really lovely relationship (largely based on me letting her ‘quirks’ wash over me else it would drive me insane!) and she trusts me to do anything to her, but I never want another one like her!