Has anyone had this - sorry bit long, please help

[Theresa_F]

Farra our new 4 year old clydie has always been sensitive skinned in that she reacts badly to flies etc and is the one who always flicks her tail and shudders if they get to her.

We bought her end of August and she past a 5 stage vetting.

Mid September, it was probably the third or fourth time she was ridden in the school she started tossing her head, throwing her head to the ground, really hauling you out the saddle and if the reins touch her neck or top of withers she shudders her skin. She also went through a stage of shaking like she was a wet dog - very uncomfortable, though if you put your leg on she works through it at the time.

We are not asking alot - just basic walk, trot and few strides of canter in the school. She also did this with my instructor onboard and shook her harder than she shakes me, but she was asking for a bit more than I do. She also did a fair bit of shaking her head and quivers when out on a hack, again only walking on a loose rein.

She has a minimal bridle - just a head piece, no brow or nose band and has a Neue Schule Starter Snaffle with full cheeks as her bit. Her saddle appears fine, and I have also tried my treeless on her. I have had teeth, tack and back checked - nothing found.

She long reins and lunges no problem, occasional head shake with or without the saddle is on - nothing more than Chancer would do.

I now plan to try sitting bareback on her just being led round to see if it is a weight on back problem - she is 17 hands clydesdale and I am 10 stone so is more than able to carry me.

I am wondering could the microchip she put in at the end of August have moved, she started this about three weeks later? It is not her freezemark, she did this before being done.

I know she tosses her head when she is not getting her own way, ie when we first got her, being made to work up the end of the school she is was not that happy with. She does have a typical mare test you out streak. We have had a few discussions regarding manners which are quickly sorted now and she went through a stage of stopping when in hand which was sorted out in a day or so by a dog chain under her chin which got the message through - walk besides me or be uncomfortable.

That said, without the saddle on, no skin quivers and you can touch the withers, shoulders, neck and mane with no reaction. Put the saddle on and she quivers her skin like a fly landing if you touch neck, shoulder or top of mane/withers, just standing by her.

She did go through a stage of refusing to be mounted by the block, but a couple of Mr Stick visits and when she stood nicely getting an immediate minty cube seem to have solved this, again within two sessions. She now stands and waits for me to get on and get her treat.

I am in two minds to try riding her through, bridge the reins so when she throws her head around she makes herself uncomfortable, or do you think she is not being a 4 year old mare pushing her limits but does have a problem? If only they could talk.

I am trying to eliminate everything a vet will ask me to check before I call them out as I am now about to do.

Any experience of this quivering and tossing or do you think she is a crafty young mare who luckily uses this as evasion rather than bucking everyone off like Cairo did as a youngster.

Thanks for getting this far.

 

[scotsmare]

Sounds like something somewhere is hitting a nerve and making her twitch. Is she clipped?

 

[JM07]

anything you feeding her thats making her skin sensitive???

 

[Theresa_F]

Not yet, I was going to do her neck and belly this weekend, but as it is has turned cold and she is - due to being odd not working that hard, have left her.

I have frontlined her mane etc in case of lice or mites and have washed her - can't find any foreign invaders and am wondering about nerves being the culprit.

As said, the quivers are there with just the saddle on and nobody on board.

 

[Theresa_F]

Don't think so - she has Simple Systems Just Grass and a little speedi beet and a few nuts - not very different to where she was before. She also has BSS and linseed but am about to take them out the diet just incase.

Would this make her skin and mane quiver only with a saddle on and not without? With the saddle on, it is only in front of the saddle that appears to quiver, behind, belly, chest etc has no reaction.

 

[OWLIE185]

My mare did this when I first got her. She had probably not bene ridden for months if not longer and was very unfit.

I just built her up by hacking her eventually taking her out for 4 - 5 hours long hacks.

Now she hardly ever does it and I have had her for nearly 20 years and she is 27 years old.

 

[Theresa_F]

Thanks - when being vetted the vet did comment that she did need a lot of muscle work as she lacked much on top. She is fairly fit in terms of that she can trot and canter around for 20 mins non stop without puffing when being loose schooled - and she never shakes etc when doing this.

Did you mare do this from the moment you got onboard? Farra will often toss etc as she walks off from the block.

 

[CBAnglo]

Hi Theresa

Havent spoken in ages! Glad to hear you are getting on well with Farra.

With these reactions, I would be tempted to think that the saddle maybe pinching a nerve near the wither region. I would definitely try bareback (if she is sensible) to see if she has the same reaction. When you are riding her is she moving freely across her back, or is she bracing herself?

Could it be the saddle cloth? perhaps it isnt given her enough clearance above the wither?

 

[Theresa_F]

In general she is a lovely girl, she moves freely - and I have worked her without and with the saddle from the ground to see if I can see anything.

Luckily she seems very laid back - she is quieter at 4 than Cairo was at 21 bless her, so am happy to hop on bareback, though if she decides to do a wet dog shake, don't think I will stay on, hence Andy will lead her round. To be honest with the quivering if the reins touch the top of her neck and the head shaking and pulling, I can't tell if she is bracing herself but she then goes ok and starts again.

I have the saddle cloth really lifted off the withers, one of my pet hates is seeing tight clothes nder the saddle. This is why I also tried the treeless as this is cut so there is no cloth joined over the wither and it should not pinch etc.

If she is ok bareback, my next thought it to put on the huge western pad on and jump back onboard and see if that makes a difference.

Just really want to get to the root of it so I can push on with her education.

PM me and let me know how you are the boys are getting on if you have a moment.

 

[CBAnglo]

My next thought would be that perhaps the weight on her back needs to be distributed a bit more. I see this a lot with horses with weak toplines, especially babies. They are fine on the ground, but then you put a saddle and a rider on and suddenly the weight is concentrated in a certain area. And as David P keeps telling me, horses were not designed to be ridden!

Instead of the western pad, could you try something like a prolite which would even out the pressure a bit? I assume her saddle fits etc. Also, is she sensitive over her back at all? Does she move away from pressure etc?

Will drop you a PM - it will be a long one mind!

 

[Theresa_F]

Back itself is fine, it is the neck, shoulder blades and top of neck - mane that acts like a fly is on it if touched with the saddle being worn.

Have actually thought about trying Cairo's western as this is a big saddle that would put the weight over the back and his pad is a specialist one with extra padding and high withers to help backs.

Paul did her back last week and apart from a small tight spot on her rear end, nothing in the saddle, topline or neck/shoulders was found.

Her saddle seems fine, hence I also tried the treeless which again looked good on her and is certainly wide enough as she is not as wide as Cairo, and he loved that saddle.

No problems with rugs etc being on the top of the back, nor wearing a saddle pad and roller for long reining, so don't think it is a girth issue.

Look forward to the PM.

 

[CBAnglo]

Maybe try the western although if it is too wide then that would concentrate the weight more in front (the westerns I used to ride in were big heavy old saddles - although none of the horses seem to have back problems in those days!)

It doesnt sound like a bit/contact issue at all. Nor girth really. It sounds like something around the wither region and probably is a nerve thing.

Thing is, without her being pushed you cant see if there are any other reactions. But as she is so young and green, you are rightly concerned not to push her if it is a pain issue. But seems telling that when sally gets on she reacts more than when you are on.

Try with the western and other pads/prolite and then if all else fails I guess it is a call to DP.

Reminds me that I need to call Paul out as well.

 

[Theresa_F]

Thanks, will try bareback, western, pads - god I would even ride nude if it worked!

As you said, telling that she was worse with Sarah - am going to ask her to ride her again on Saturday to see what she does. Sarah has a huge amount of experience dealing with young/naughty/problem horses so I hope she can help work out what is going on.

99.9% not bit/or contact - she does not do it on long reining but does when ridden on washing line reins, ditto girth. Have thought about trying her on roller with girth fairly tight as I normally have it not as tight as I would on a saddle.

Paul did say that if this all does not point to anything, then he said time to call out vet in case it is a trapped or damaged nerve. I don't want to put discomfort on a young horse if there is the potential that this is the problem.

What is it with clydes? Chancer has never been a problem compared to those big buggers.

 

[CBAnglo]

Oops, sorry I meant to type Sarah (who on earth is Sally?)

Not sure how nude riding would go down if you took her to a show at HPF ...

Possibly the tightness of the girth traps the nerve ... do you use the same girth to ride and lunge? Does she object to doing up the girth when on?

It sounds more like pressure on that area caused by saddle and rider weight. Possibly trapped nerve or maybe soft tissue damage. With the rider asking her to use herself more, she is probably finding it more uncomfortable and therefore the headshaking increases.

If you can, take a video of Sarah riding and then you so you can show the vet. That way the vet can be sure it is not something you are doing e.g. more weight on one side, or different contact etc. Of course if vet is coming out, makes sense for them to check teeth etc anyway.

Doesnt sound like an allergy or anything, but you never know.

Chancer's such a good boy and Farra will be fine once you have this sorted. Try the other saddles/pads/girths and try filming it all to see if there is something else going on.

Cairo was no trouble at all!

 

[Tia]

Hi Theresa,

Do you remember my personal horse which I ended up selling to my neighbour? The one whom she sold to one of my boarding customers and is now back living with us again? Well he never ever did this when I owned him - he was always a wonderful horse for the first few years of his life with me. He returned to my farm a couple of months ago and his new owner asked me to work with him to get him back to where he was a year ago, prior to me selling him; so I have been riding him a few times a week since his return and the first time I went to ride him, he started doing this even before I had tacked him up. Flinching his shoulders/withers and shaking like a dog. There were no flies on him and no mosquies. I had no idea why he was doing this as there seemed to be absolutely nothing on him.

Anyhow I tacked him up and off we went. The ride was horrid. He was good, but he kept doing this flinching malarky and it was beginning to drive me mad. Anyhow, for the first week I rode him out 4 times and each time was the same and by the end of the week I was really starting to rack my brains as to what it could be. The only thing I could come up with was that at my neighbours farm, she has huge ponds and it is very flyish and mosqui-ish there, so I wondered if he had been bitten so many times that it had now become a habit for him??

The second week, I have to say, I started to tell him off for doing it. I pushed him into more active work and started asking much more from him. My thoughts were to occupy his mind elsewhere and forget about whatever he thought might be bugging him. I'd say it worked. He did it a few more times and each time I worked him through it.

2 months on and he hasn't done it for a while now. We have a very windy farm and flies and mosquitos are nowhere near as bad as they are at my neighbours, and this was the only thing I could put it down to. I think he may have been so super-sensitive to them that even when he first came back to mine, he thought that the bugs were still there.

He also did the yanking thing. And he was also over muscled on one side and under muscled on the other. Beginner riders yanking on his mouth and going round and round in the same direction in the school, I believe. I have worked on this and I put him in a KK hanging cheek snaffle which he likes and doesn't pull against; that combined with him being put back to being a proper western horse with little or no contact, seems to have fixed this problem.

He's now nearly the horse I sold a year ago.