Having a bit of a wobble about raw feeding

[Brownmare]

I'm having a couple of issues at the moment and need a bit of advice. I have fed my young whippet raw from 8 weeks old and she has done very well on it but I am struggling to keep weight on her despite feeding her more than the collie who is very active and 7kg heavier than her and he is holding a nice weight. Also her coat quality seems to vary, sometimes feeling quite coarse and greasy (for a whippet) and she gets the squits on fish so gets salmon oil every other day instead. I do diy raw so they get 80% mince (different protein each month rotated), 10% bone (usually chicken) and 10% offal (a ready mixed tub which is half liver). Every other day they get an egg and mince replaced with tripe once a week.

Does that sound about right? Should I feed a supplement as well and what would be the best way of upping calorie intake without exceeding appetite capacity for my little whippet?

I should say the other two dogs look amazing, soft glossy coats, clean teeth, nice poos and bags of energy. I keep wondering if I should switch to a concentrated kibble like orijen instead?

Eta they get fish one day a week too, usually a whole mackerel or something similar to replace a proportion of the normal meal but the whippet now just gets fish oil throughout the week instead

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I was very wary of feeding my pup RAW, for a variety of reasons so he's on Eden with some RAW on the side. I can't really comment on your RAW diet, sounds fine but you obviously feel she could be doing better? How old is she now?

The only thing (and I expect to get jumped on) is that personally I wouldn't feed that many eggs (if they are raw) to a pup. I do feed raw eggs to both cats and dogs but only a couple a week to the dogs when adult.

 

[Leo Walker]

Mine are both whippets and both eat way more than the recommended amounts. Somewhere between 4 and 10% depending on how much and what sort of exercise they do. They are both slim and fit and have coats like silk. Mine arent keen on fish so dont get a lot of that, and treat liver like its poison. They do get lots of heart and lung and I do try and sneak liver and kidney in.

The only thing I do differently is to feed a lot more variety. We usually have 5 or so and alternate them most days. Not sure if that makes any difference but might be worth a try. I'd cut the chicken out as well see if that has any impact. Lots of dogs dont do well on chicken and it seems thats one of the constants. You can add it back in if nothing changes.

 

[Bosworth]

have you looked at the raw feeding site on facebook, they are brilliant and happy to help with any questions. I know tripe is great for putting on weight, but needs ot be green tripe, not white tripe. I give mine primarily chicken necks, as their base food, and then add mince meat and minced offal to give the required percentages. once or twice a month they get tinned mackeral. My feed by appearance not by percentage. and if I wanted to increase weight, I increase the amount of chicken I give. which works for my two. I would perhaps look for yours at adding 3 meals a week of tripe and removing the mince on those days. But I only now what works for my dogs, the facebook site will give you loads of help

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Don't give up. My two were skinny wretches when pups, I over fed them and fed purely by eye. As older dogs, they settle and didn't need as much, so now I have to feed a whole lot less. Lamb is good for weight gain as the fattiest type of meat (lamb breast is v cheap from the Dog Food Company who are on Facebook). If she can't cope with fish, how about feeding a couple of sprats? Oily, but small enough not to cause issues.

What you're feeding sounds fine, I think you just need to up the amounts.

 

[{97702}]

Personally I never fed my dogs fish when they were on raw - mainly because the first time I tried it all four of them were comprehensively sick an hour or so later! They all thrived on raw but I always fed by eye - Hoover and Islay are naturally rangy and don't keep weight on so they get more, Flick and Amy will survive happily on fresh air so they get the prescribed 2.5% of bodyweight Their coats have always been amazing on raw so not sure why your whippet is showing poor coat condition - here are mine on raw from Manifold Valley Meats (the best quality supplier IMO)

 

[SusieT]

if fish upsets her stomach i would steer away from fish oil as well - this may be the problem a low grade reaction thats showing as not thriving

 

[AmyMay]

If raw's not working for you I certainly wouldn't beat yourself up about not wanting to continue.

There are plenty of good foods out there for our dogs.

 

[missmatch]

You need to vary the protein more than once a month. Can you bulk buy and change more frequently?
Have you checked to see if it's a protein allergy or sensitivity, which would fit with variations in condition. Chicken seems to be a common one.
What fish are you feeding? Has it been frozen for at least 2 weeks if whole? Fish really does need to be introduced very slowly in small amounts.
The 80/10/10 is a guideline. I have one who thrives on that and one who needs twice the offal.
What brand feed are you using? Some are better than others.
Eggs really should only be fed a couple of times a week at most. Do you feed in shells?

 

[Brownmare]

Thanks for all the responses, I will try and answer everyones questions.

Summer is now 15 months old (and still hasn't had her first season!)

When I say she has poor coat condition I should clarify she still has a mirror like shine and no scurf or itching, it is just that her coat doesn't have the silky feel I know it has had before.

It seems everyone thinks I am feeding too many eggs. I was originally feeding eggs once a week but noticed coat condition improved when I fed more however I can see I may have overdone it! I will drop that back to twice a week.

I use a local RAW supplier who buys from several sources including Manifold Valley so I do often buy that brand or Just Natural. The bones are their own label and the offal is Paleo Ridge mixed species blend.

The fish comes from the same place and is frozen but I think I will keep that for the other two now and give Summer tripe twice a week instead

I will try and change the protein source more often but it is really a storage issue as if I can buy a tray of 24 packs it works out cheaper but I don't have the freezer space to buy 4 trays!! I may have to overflow into the human freezer

Embarrassingly OH has just asked when the dogs were last wormed and it seems they are a month overdue so that could be a big part of the problem **hangs head in shame**

If the above don't work I will then start an elimination diet to see if she is reacting to chicken or something else.

Final question: what do people think of supplementing veg and fruit or herbs, seaweed etc? I never have as such although they often get a alice or two of carrot when I'm doing the human dinners!

 

[Brownmare]

Oh, and I do feed by eye largely I just can't feed ever larger quantities- I tried an extra 100g tonight and the poor love threw it back up again half an hour later so I won't do that again!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Cestem is the Drontal equivalent, but cheaper. Feed on an empty stomach. If you can, get a chest freezer and stock up with a big delivery. Fish is probably much cheaper from supermarkets, go small and increase if they can cope.

What amymay says is true, check out allaboutdogfood website. I used to be a mad banging advocate of raw, but one of mine just isn't keen bar chicken, so he's gone onto Wainwright's trays, I'd rather he wasn't sick and liked his food.

Up amounts of any food very gradually, literally 20g a time. I don't add veg or fruit, I doubt they'd really eat this in the wild or choose it. Mine like raw carrots, but it's not part of their meals.

 

[Brownmare]

Thanks CT, I was greeted by a nasty sloppy poo when I came downstairs this morning so heading off to get a wormer first thing today and will take it from there. I do keep some dry food in the house for those times when I forget to defrost their dinner or when we go camping or go to stay with family so I can switch to that for a bit if necessary. I have Canagan at the moment which suited our old dog (now sadly departed) but Summer lost weight on it when they had it for a week a while back when I missed an order deadline...

Does anyone ever get worm egg counts done for their dogs? I always do for the horses and farm animals but never for the dogs.

 

[gunnergundog]

Does anyone ever get worm egg counts done for their dogs? I always do for the horses and farm animals but never for the dogs.

Yes, and the most any dog of mine has ever been wormed is five times in a 13 year life.

 

[Brownmare]

Yes, and the most any dog of mine has ever been wormed is five times in a 13 year life.

Do you get those done at the vets? And do they show tapeworm levels?

We are going into a farm assurance scheme this year so will have to show proof the dogs have been wormed every 3 months but I guess they would accept a vets report instead

 

[Alec Swan]

Brownmare, rather than religious worming, as others, I'd have a worm count done. If the results come back as a worm burden at an acceptable level, and a low count can and should be tolerated, then that's that ruled out. Blanket worming just as obsessive cleanliness comes at a price.

The other important point is that there are those dogs which run at a skin and bone level, and apart from being a bit of an eyesore, their metabolism is such that it's just how they operate. A painfully thin dog, accepting that the question of gut parasites has been ruled out, is usually nothing to worry about. I seem to have read somewhere that you're dog is 15 months(?) and many such dogs don't tend to carry weight until the truly mature.

Another point which may have some bearing is that constantly changing the dog's diet, or trying new feeds will almost certainly have an impact. Humans benefit from a varied diet and dogs tend not to. The best indicators as to a dog's health status is in the coat, the eye, the gum colour, the dog's generally demeanour, and of the greatest influence, stool condition.

Dogs (mostly) have dietary needs which are unlike ours. Basically they're scavengers and though others will swear by one system but not another, it's my opinion that 'Raw' diets and religiously followed, aren't usually of THAT much importance or benefit.

Alec.

 

[Roxylola]

My springer has always been inclined to be pretty lean, my vets are pretty practical and basically say the same as Alec has re some dogs are just lean. She is fit and buzzy and they both love their raw food, if I over feed she just squits but I have added a night time meal of porridge made with goats milk, they love it and it has helped a bit I think with keeping weight on and costs down a bit

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I imagine tapeworm doesn't show up in canine worm counts either. Don't know if there's yet a saliva test like horses for tapeworm. I'm tempted to do the worm counts, but I'm not sure I could cope with dog poo!

 

[LD&S]

Oh, and I do feed by eye largely I just can't feed ever larger quantities- I tried an extra 100g tonight and the poor love threw it back up again half an hour later so I won't do that again!

Try giving an extra small meal rather than increase the amount per meal

 

[Alec Swan]

C_t, I'm not sure if it applies to tapeworm, but with horses, cattle and sheep, it's the eggs which are being counted rather than the worm itself.

Alec.

 

[gunnergundog]

Do you get those done at the vets? And do they show tapeworm levels?

I get mine done at the vet yes, although I believe you can send samples off to a lab yourself. I cover tapeworms by collecting the faecal sample over three or four days and then handing the combined sample over.....apparently this gives a greater chance of tapeworm being picked up as they are only shed intermittently.

 

[gunnergundog]

C_t, I'm not sure if it applies to tapeworm, but with horses, cattle and sheep, it's the eggs which are being counted rather than the worm itself.

Alec.

For dogs too it is the eggs that are counted; tapeworm however is the exception as the eggs are contained within the body segments of the worm that are shed in the fecal matter.

What is the life cycle of D. caninum?

The adult worm, which can be up to 20 inches long, lives in the small intestine. The segments, full of eggs, are passed in the feces. While warm, the segments are active, but as they dry, they break open and liberate the eggs inside. Either an adult louse or a flea larva ingests the eggs. The egg develops into an immature form in the insect. When a dog or cat eats the insect, the immature form develops into an adult worm and the life cycle is completed.

 

[Brownmare]

Thanks, very interesting! I will have a chat with our vets about worm counting next time I speak to them but they all had a wormer yesterday as I had already bought them. Fingers crossed the diet tweaks will do the trick but I appreciate that a very active adolescent whippet is never going to be fat!!

 

[rara007]

Make sure baermanns is included in any count too for the lungs.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

The adult worm, which can be up to 20 inches long, lives in the small intestine. The segments, full of eggs, are passed in the feces. While warm, the segments are active, but as they dry, they break open and liberate the eggs inside. Either an adult louse or a flea larva ingests the eggs. The egg develops into an immature form in the insect. When a dog or cat eats the insect, the immature form develops into an adult worm and the life cycle is completed.

Rather like the Fluke which leads an equally complex existence, in that there's a need for an intermediary partner!

Parasites are fascinating in their complexity. Thanks for that, it's appreciated.

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

C_t, I'm not sure if it applies to tapeworm, but with horses, cattle and sheep, it's the eggs which are being counted rather than the worm itself.

Alec.

As gunnergundog explains, tapeworm eggs can't be counted, but the new saliva test is apparently very reliable.