He really doesn't help himself, does he? Pat Parelli.

Natch

Natch

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 November 2007
Messages
11,616
Visit site
"Spurs tend to be a sensitive subject, but I think they are probably one of the most humane tools to use in communication with horses. I'll explain. In early days, horses were ridden and used for transportation, or in hunting for food. It wasn't necessary for horses to go forward, backward, right, left up and down equally; in other words, perform the 6 yields. Therefore spurs were probably not in use in the dawn of horsemanship.

The spur was probably invented when the human needed to ask the horse to yield sidewars quickly or precisely, such as in working wild cattle. The horse was gored by a bull's horns if he didn't move quickly out of harm's way.

Also, when horses were used as tools on the battlefield, the 6 yields came into play then. I beliebe that as a consequence of battlefield conditions, spurs were used after many horses had been run through by swords because they did not know to yield from the rider's legs. From that point of view, the spur was designed as a very humane tool.

There are many kinds of spurs and ways in which they are used (Dressage, cutting, roping, reining, rodeo, polo etc). And there are many attitudes people take with spurs. Some use them as torture devices and punch their horses' sides to make them go forward or to punish them for doing something wrong. Others use them simply as extensions of their legs and gently apply pressure to get a point across.

Spurs are intended to teach, control, reinforce, and refine movement. Use spurs intelligently and effectively as they are intended. DOn't do what normal riders do and use spurs to make horses go faster. In Natural Horse-Man-Ship, we use spurs with the right attitude, feel, timing, balance, savvy and experience. I'll explain the natural way to use spurs in Terchniques - In The Saddle."

Extract from the book Natural Horse-Man-Ship by Pat Parelli, 2003.

Surely to god, this bloke in his infinite wisdom should recognise that a) saying spurs are humane in comparison to being gouged by a sword or a bull's horns isn't really much of a comparison, and at the end of the day the bloke pooh-poos traditions such as getting on from the left because of your sword getting in the way, b) his system I thought was supposed to be about refinement of aids, therefore surely the pupil's ultimate aim should be not to need spurs, but for their horse to respond to a light touch of the heel, and c) that incinuations like " Normal horse riders use spurs to gouge their horses into going faster and "Only people following my programme can use spurs correctly" are at best incorrect and at worst polarising; and perhaps worst of all, that the use of spurs is in some way "Natural."

Rant over. For now :p But if there is anyone left on here who is a supporter and part of the Parelli programme, I'd be really interested to hear if you have responses to my above musings over this text.

Apologies to everyone who is bored by Parelli threads, and further apologies if this turns into a bun fight :o
 
Iv got one horse who needs spurs and works a dream if you wear them, rather this than make him dead to the leg.

This is interesting. Spurs are allowed in horse racing as long as they don't draw blood!!!!
 
I'm not a Parelli follower but I actually think that's a pretty fair article. He's just describing the correct function and purpose of spurs.

Unless I'm missing something?
 
Taffyhorse said:
I'm not a Parelli follower but I actually think that's a pretty fair article. He's just describing the correct function and purpose of spurs.

Unless I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Might just be me in a bad mood today then :p I read it as:

  • Spurs are humane to use (in this day and age) because othewise your horse gets stabbed by swords and bulls horns.
  • Normal riders use them incorrectly
  • Only my students can use them correctly
 
I'm not a supporter but don't know enough about the Parelli system to be anything other than neutral.

He is tarring 'normal' riders with one big fat brush in what he says in that one sentence but the rest of it I thought read OK and did acknowledge that there are very different views on spurs and manners in which they are used. I didn't read it as saying spurs are humane in comparison to being gored by a bull or sliced with a sword! He's prob not the best writer in the world but I saw the point there as being, this is where spurs came from, to act as a refining aid. Whether his history is accurate or not I don't know. I do see a small number of riders using spurs to attempt make horses which are not forward enough go faster! IMO used as a refining aid they are fine, used to stab a horse forward they are not.

I do think one will read this in the context of their pre-existing beliefs (if they have any) about PP :p
 
Naturally said:
"Spurs tend to be a sensitive subject, but I think they are probably one of the most humane tools to use in communication with horses. I'll explain. In early days, horses were ridden and used for transportation, or in hunting for food. It wasn't necessary for horses to go forward, backward, right, left up and down equally; in other words, perform the 6 yields. Therefore spurs were probably not in use in the dawn of horsemanship.

The spur was probably invented when the human needed to ask the horse to yield sidewars quickly or precisely, such as in working wild cattle. The horse was gored by a bull's horns if he didn't move quickly out of harm's way.

Also, when horses were used as tools on the battlefield, the 6 yields came into play then. I beliebe that as a consequence of battlefield conditions, spurs were used after many horses had been run through by swords because they did not know to yield from the rider's legs. From that point of view, the spur was designed as a very humane tool.

There are many kinds of spurs and ways in which they are used (Dressage, cutting, roping, reining, rodeo, polo etc). And there are many attitudes people take with spurs. Some use them as torture devices and punch their horses' sides to make them go forward or to punish them for doing something wrong. Others use them simply as extensions of their legs and gently apply pressure to get a point across.

Spurs are intended to teach, control, reinforce, and refine movement. Use spurs intelligently and effectively as they are intended. DOn't do what normal riders do and use spurs to make horses go faster. In Natural Horse-Man-Ship, we use spurs with the right attitude, feel, timing, balance, savvy and experience. I'll explain the natural way to use spurs in Terchniques - In The Saddle."

Extract from the book Natural Horse-Man-Ship by Pat Parelli, 2003.

Surely to god, this bloke in his infinite wisdom should recognise that a) saying spurs are humane in comparison to being gouged by a sword or a bull's horns isn't really much of a comparison, and at the end of the day the bloke pooh-poos traditions such as getting on from the left because of your sword getting in the way, b) his system I thought was supposed to be about refinement of aids, therefore surely the pupil's ultimate aim should be not to need spurs, but for their horse to respond to a light touch of the heel, and c) that incinuations like " Normal horse riders use spurs to gouge their horses into going faster and "Only people following my programme can use spurs correctly" are at best incorrect and at worst polarising; and perhaps worst of all, that the use of spurs is in some way "Natural."

Rant over. For now :p But if there is anyone left on here who is a supporter and part of the Parelli programme, I'd be really interested to hear if you have responses to my above musings over this text.

Apologies to everyone who is bored by Parelli threads, and further apologies if this turns into a bun fight :o
Click to expand...


well I for one have to say that PP has a wonderful way with words...


Otherwise known as...











TALKING BULLS**T



we always use the term 'the only horse that person should have is a rocking horse' well he shouldnt even be allowed near one of them neither should LP... I'd like to spur them both with a long pointy stick
 
Can I fling the first bun? :D

On a serious note, to be fair to the guy alot of what he says is true but then it's pretty basic...*coughs* I mean common sense how you should and shouldn't use spurs should you want to use the in the first place.

The thing that bugs be about these guys is the way they come across to people like there preaching stuff that most normal edcuated horse folk already know, it's all a bit weird to me.
 
i read that and thought yeah kind of fair enough sort of mind set but then i got to the bit about SAVVY!!!
i don't use spurs on my horses, never needed to but i have used them on friends horses, one girl would still kick her horse hard when wearing them and it would draw blood sometimes. she never listened to me about it and just said that if the horse listened straight away she wouldn't need to kick again!

now that article has just reminded me about her attitude, they get out the way quick with spurs on or they get 'stabbed'.
 
I don't think he understands the meaning of humane, unless what he's trying to do (woefully badly) is dispel the belief that some people have that spurs are simpy 'cruel'. As for how spurs are and should be used... yes, thank you Pat, we knew that. (ETS: Sorry Pat, I'm not convinced spurs were invented by cowboys to prevent their horses getting gored... there ARE other riding styles /purposes other than western ya know...)
Hmm, I wonder how much money I can make from stating the obvious and pitching it as Huggly Horsemanship??
 
Last edited:
well I am shocked and dismayed, this is not like PP at all...

Just went on his website, and there are NO SPURS for sale :( Would have thought he'd have a load of special parelli spurs all lined up and for sale along with the accompanying 'how to use your spurs the Parelli way' dvd all for the bargin price of $200 ;) no like him to miss an opportunity to cash in! ;)
 
As a slight aside, at a Monty Roberts demo recently he rode a Western trained horse, & he wore spurs. He rode around the outside of the areana for everyone to see them. They were a fairly thick rolled bar, the shape of his ankle but just sitting an inch or so back from the back of his ankle. What it would have done was place a ankle shaped bar closed to the side of his mount with less leg movement from the rider. Never seen anything like them before, seemed excellent shape & idea to me (not a spur wearer) & very humane. Could see the point to these, they literally ment he could sit stiller. Anyone else seen them?
 
pip6 said:
As a slight aside, at a Monty Roberts demo recently he rode a Western trained horse, & he wore spurs. He rode around the outside of the areana for everyone to see them. They were a fairly thick rolled bar, the shape of his ankle but just sitting an inch or so back from the back of his ankle. What it would have done was place a ankle shaped bar closed to the side of his mount with less leg movement from the rider. Never seen anything like them before, seemed excellent shape & idea to me (not a spur wearer) & very humane. Could see the point to these, they literally ment he could sit stiller. Anyone else seen them?
Click to expand...

Hmm, i've never seen them before but the sound very good, maybe he was trying them out and he'll be selling them soon.
 
Messrs Parelli and Roberts need to create the background that all "normal" people are actually deranged psychopaths that will take every opportunity to beat and instil panic in their equine charges.

Then of course they can be lovely and humane and wave plastic bags at said abused equines whilst wearing "humanely expensive" headcollars in the name of compassionate ownership and equine behaviour teachings.

Of course - every time I back a horse I tie all its legs together and jump on at that is the way it is always done. Isn't it?

**Head explodes**

:mad::mad::mad:

Ok. Calm now ;):p:D
 
Spurs good or not, i don't think is the point, i always thought NATUAL was with as little equipment and artifical aids as poss....now i might be wrong but isn't a spur an artifical aid. :o
 
I have no problem at all with a rider with a strong independant seat and a still leg using spurs.

But I had the joy of going to a friends yard at the weekend to see some jumping and seeing a child wearing spurs and giving constant massive pony club kicks! I had to be restrained from pulling the little horror off her horse.

There should be a flaming age limit (same for Whips) or better still a competancy test which would sort out the adults who should never be let loose near a spur or whip as well.

and Breathe!
 
Last edited:
Chavhorse said:
I have no problem at all with a rider with a strong independant seat and a still leg using spurs.

But I had the joy of going to a friends yard at the weekend to see some jumping and seeing a child wearing spurs and giving constant massive pony club kicks! I had to be restrained from pulling the little horror off her horse.

There should be a flaming age limit (same for Whips) or better still a competancy test which would sort out the adults who should never be let loose near a spur or whip as well.

and Breathe!
Click to expand...

Pony Club do not (should not) allow the use of spurs until child has achieved its B Test Riding, unless by special permission of the DC. B Test would not normally be done until at least age 15, and is roughly equivalent to BHS Stage II in that it allows you direct entry to BHS Stage III
 
Chavhorse said:
I have no problem at all with a rider with a strong independant seat and a still leg using spurs.

But I had the joy of going to a friends yard at the weekend to see some jumping and seeing a child wearing spurs and giving constant massive pony club kicks! I had to be restrained from pulling the little horror off her horse.

There should be a flaming age limit (same for Whips) or better still a competancy test which would sort out the adults who should never be let loose near a spur or whip as well.

and Breathe!
Click to expand...

At my daughters old PC you had to have a ridden assesment from the DC and written permission before you could wear spurs at any PC event.


Back to the old PP debate
I dont like PP or LP because of the way they just denouncce any thing other than their way. I do rate Monty R and Kelly Mark and Natural Horsmanship, I like their methods and the way they accept that people want to ride in different styles. If MR has developed a new type of spur - what s wrong with selling it and making money out of it. I just wish I could have a good idea and make some dosh!
 
This is what I like about the pony club that you have to get your card signed by the DC to wear spurs (I got mine signed aged 21!!! but never really used them) and I have known people turned down even aged 21. Shame it doesn't carry on into adulthood!
Aren't spurs just for tripping over army officers in mess dress after too much port?! :D
 
jemima_too said:
Pony Club do not (should not) allow the use of spurs until child has achieved its B Test Riding, unless by special permission of the DC. B Test would not normally be done until at least age 15, and is roughly equivalent to BHS Stage II in that it allows you direct entry to BHS Stage III
Click to expand...

Sorry I was referring to "Pony Club Kicks" as a visual expression as in legs as wide apart as possible followed by the whump of legs on side of horse. I am sure the good old Pony Club has measures in place to stop horrible children doing this.

However this is Holland and everyone wears spurs, whether they need them or not or whether they have any idea how to use them or not....tis the law and Anky wears them so it must be ok!
 
Very interesting about the Monty Roberts spur. If it is as you described, I would buy a set.

I am happy to admit I have very short fat legs, Stinky is now a rather wide and substantial cob, hence it is difficult to get my heels on his sides without having a very wrong leg position.

Whilst he is learning to move off the calf pressure, I do find sometimes when schooling and asking for leg yield and circles, having a pair of spurs allows me to rest them on his side and give a little push with my "leg extension".

As for PP - I long ago lost any respect for him and his "natural" ways.
 
From what is described here, it sounds as if Monty was just using one of the many versions of western rowel spur, probably a shank spur of some description (as favoured by Pat Parelli and many western riders). So if you look on some western sites you're bound to be able to find them. In fact, there's a good explanation a few paragraphs after the section in the Parelli book that Naturally has quoted that explains the action and severity of rowel spurs very clearly.

Pat P views the use of spurs as something for reserved for the advanced rider. In which case his view would be very much in line with what many are saying here. He says "Spurs are intended to teach, control, reinforce, and refine movement." which to me would tend to support that. I know when I was in the Parelli programme spurs weren't introduced until I think the end of Level 3 (that is the old Level 3, not the much easier level it is now!). I think you maybe need to consider this in context. Pat P doesn't even give people a bit to ride with until they can demonstrate a certain level of ridden competency in walk, trot and canter. If you follow his programme you certainly wouldn't get spurs on your boots until you had good control of your legs, and a clear understanding of using your aids.

I'm not a supporter of the Parelli programme, but, once I ignore the silly stuff that kind of hints that you have to be "natural" before you can use spurs correctly, I don't have a problem with what Parelli says about them. To summarise, he says they are a tool of refinement, for use by skilled riders. Well, we say this on the forum all the time. Taken in the context of the whole book, and the whole Parelli programme, I have even less problem with his attitude to spurs. He's a lot more fussy about who should use them than many instructors I've come accross.

His book was first published in 1993 according to what it says in the front of mine, he looks a lot slimmer then!
 
I doubt spurs were used on the battlefield because they were more 'humane'. If your life depends on your horse going forwards when you need it to you are not likely to worry about how you achieve that and what state the horse is likely to be in afterwards! (I've not got anything against spurs btw, it just seemed like a stupid thing to say).
 
Once a fan but not since the money making machine gathered speed and lost sight of the original goals. However, he doesn't say "normal people use spurs to torture their horses". He says "SOME people..................................". If we're going to criticise, we have to make sure we are squeaky clean ourselves!
 
Tinypony said:
From what is described here, it sounds as if Monty was just using one of the many versions of western rowel spur, probably a shank spur of some description (as favoured by Pat Parelli and many western riders). So if you look on some western sites you're bound to be able to find them. In fact, there's a good explanation a few paragraphs after the section in the Parelli book that Naturally has quoted that explains the action and severity of rowel spurs very clearly.

Pat P views the use of spurs as something for reserved for the advanced rider. In which case his view would be very much in line with what many are saying here. He says "Spurs are intended to teach, control, reinforce, and refine movement." which to me would tend to support that. I know when I was in the Parelli programme spurs weren't introduced until I think the end of Level 3 (that is the old Level 3, not the much easier level it is now!). I think you maybe need to consider this in context. Pat P doesn't even give people a bit to ride with until they can demonstrate a certain level of ridden competency in walk, trot and canter. If you follow his programme you certainly wouldn't get spurs on your boots until you had good control of your legs, and a clear understanding of using your aids.

I'm not a supporter of the Parelli programme, but, once I ignore the silly stuff that kind of hints that you have to be "natural" before you can use spurs correctly, I don't have a problem with what Parelli says about them. To summarise, he says they are a tool of refinement, for use by skilled riders. Well, we say this on the forum all the time. Taken in the context of the whole book, and the whole Parelli programme, I have even less problem with his attitude to spurs. He's a lot more fussy about who should use them than many instructors I've come accross.

His book was first published in 1993 according to what it says in the front of mine, he looks a lot slimmer then!
Click to expand...

I think you've put things into context here. Agree wholeheartedly with this.
 
Tinypony said:
From what is described here, it sounds as if Monty was just using one of the many versions of western rowel spur, probably a shank spur of some description (as favoured by Pat Parelli and many western riders). So if you look on some western sites you're bound to be able to find them. In fact, there's a good explanation a few paragraphs after the section in the Parelli book that Naturally has quoted that explains the action and severity of rowel spurs very clearly.

Pat P views the use of spurs as something for reserved for the advanced rider. In which case his view would be very much in line with what many are saying here. He says "Spurs are intended to teach, control, reinforce, and refine movement." which to me would tend to support that. I know when I was in the Parelli programme spurs weren't introduced until I think the end of Level 3 (that is the old Level 3, not the much easier level it is now!). I think you maybe need to consider this in context. Pat P doesn't even give people a bit to ride with until they can demonstrate a certain level of ridden competency in walk, trot and canter. If you follow his programme you certainly wouldn't get spurs on your boots until you had good control of your legs, and a clear understanding of using your aids.

I'm not a supporter of the Parelli programme, but, once I ignore the silly stuff that kind of hints that you have to be "natural" before you can use spurs correctly, I don't have a problem with what Parelli says about them. To summarise, he says they are a tool of refinement, for use by skilled riders. Well, we say this on the forum all the time. Taken in the context of the whole book, and the whole Parelli programme, I have even less problem with his attitude to spurs. He's a lot more fussy about who should use them than many instructors I've come accross.

His book was first published in 1993 according to what it says in the front of mine, he looks a lot slimmer then!
Click to expand...

I agree with all of that.NOT a particular fan of the Parellis but they do do some good stuff and say some sensible things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top