Head tilting

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Sorcha Fitzpatrick

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Hi all
Have a question regarding a friend's mare.
When being ridden, the mare draws her tongue back to the back of her throat and tilts her head to the side. Same on both reins.
We've tried every conceivable tongue guard, changed bits etc. Makes no difference.
She tilts less if kept constantly on the move with different exercises on a circle, square, diamond.
Can anyone suggest an alternative exercise or another bit to try and combat the tilting? She has a happy mouth snaffle at the minute. Teeth and ears and neck have been checked.
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Hi all
Have a question regarding a friend's mare.
When being ridden, the mare draws her tongue back to the back of her throat and tilts her head to the side. Same on both reins.
We've tried every conceivable tongue guard, changed bits etc. Makes no difference.
She tilts less if kept constantly on the move with different exercises on a circle, square, diamond.
Can anyone suggest an alternative exercise or another bit to try and combat the tilting? She has a happy mouth snaffle at the minute. Teeth and ears and neck have been checked.
Click to expand...

Has her saddle been checked? :)
 
Neck problems and hydoid issues ( which often go together )
Poll issues
KS often shows up first as a head tilt .
Any thing that causes lack of straightness in the body and I mean anything ,can show at the front as a head tilt .
Rider one sidedness .
Rider with one hand stronger that the other
In my experiance bits and equipment are rarer the fix .
The best thing when in the moment riding to correct it is to raise the opposite hand and ride the horse forward .
But something is causing it if it's persistent and very noticeable .
 
Does it do it if lunged/long reined in the same tack? If it does, try lunging/long reining in different or no tack. This may help to sort out if it's a rider or tack issue...or some other underlying problem.
 
The horse has regular maintenance physio and nothing untoward has turned up. She also does it when other riders sit on. These riders are not novices so it's not a rider issue.
It's definitely caused by her drawing her tongue back. Even vet has confirmed this.
At this point it's an ingrained habit and our (very) experiences instructor is now at a loss - hence this post 😊
 
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Have you had her scoped, something in the back of my mind links it with a breathing issue, racehorses doing similar have their tongues tied when racing, an overground scope may be worth considering, the only one I had here that was similar went best in a myler and drop noseband, he was not swallowing wen ridden and this combination helped, now I would probably use a Micklem on him but they were not around then.
 
Okay, working on the basis that it is a tongue issue (rather than the myriad of other things it could be), what bits have you tried and discounted?

I've been working closely this summer with a horse who has a tongue issue, and whilst there is certainly an element of schooling/straightness underlying, there are definite better/worse bits.

At this point in time we are seeing improvements with the Myler MB04 (now dressage legal) and half moon snaffle. Others on our list to try would be a couple of the bombers and also NS turtle top

Other posters make valid points - does horse do this on lunge? Also worth trying a basic bitless bridle to see what happens
 
My friend's horse did this and was unfortunately found to have kissing spines and suspensory ligament problems in both hinds. He had surgery and the head tilting stopped. Hope this isn't the case with this horse.
 
My horse head tilts on rare occasions as he has a sensitive mouth. He's stopped doing it pretty much all the time now - had his wolf teeth removed and correctional dental work. Could this be the case with yours? However he does do it from time to time.

Cortez, sorry to hijack a bit, but what is the relevance? Just curious as mine is an Irish bred and raced / pointed thoroughbred.
 
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Curious also.
Why the question about Ireland? Does this have some relevance?

Thanks all for input otherwise. It's given us something to think about and look into further.
Much obliged 😊
 
If your horse was broken in Ireland, there is a liklihood that it was broken in a way that does not encourage correct contact. Some of the more old fashioned breakers persist in using mouthing bits with keys that tend to produce horses that roll the tongue back. Horses are still routinely "tied back", i.e. left with very short sidereins (or baling twine) on rollers, often for hours or even turned out all day in fields. You will often find young horses with awful sores at the corners of their mouths. This, again, makes many/most horses very averse to establishing any kind of contact and trying to re-train is often extremely problematic long term. That is why I asked.
 
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Assuming there are no physical issues and the issue is more contact based, I had a similar issue with my mare and found she was happiest and straightest in a happy mouth single jointed snaffle and a drop noseband. She did however much later go on to have issues with her right hind which also played a part in her head tilting.
 
I would wonder about neck problems, my older Appy mare did this a bit and also appeared lame in canter, a specialist accupuncture vet came out and found that her poll was the problem. She now does it a bit sometimes when her teeth are ready for doing.
 
Thanks guys. The horse definitely has no physiological problems. It has been checked and rechecked. Teeth, ears, tack etc all cleared as potential issues. She is ridden in a myler bit 😊

Does anyone has any suggestions for exercises to combat tilting?

Cortez. Your comments are a sweeping generalisation. This horse was professionally broken in a very sympathetic manner, draw reins or tight side reins were never used. Same owner from a foal.
Whilst I'm sure there are some who use breaking methods similar to what you describe (in every country!), to tar all Irish trainers with this brush is ignorant and, quite frankly, offensive.
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Cortez. Your comments are a sweeping generalisation. This horse was professionally broken in a very sympathetic manner, draw reins or tight side reins were never used. Same owner from a foal.
Whilst I'm sure there are some who use breaking methods similar to what you describe (in every country!), to tar all Irish trainers with this brush is ignorant and, quite frankly, offensive.
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Eh? She didn't. Read her post again.

She said 'there is a likelihood'.

:mad3:
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Thanks guys. The horse definitely has no physiological problems. It has been checked and rechecked. Teeth, ears, tack etc all cleared as potential issues. She is ridden in a myler bit ��

Does anyone has any suggestions for exercises to combat tilting?

Cortez. Your comments are a sweeping generalisation. This horse was professionally broken in a very sympathetic manner, draw reins or tight side reins were never used. Same owner from a foal.
Whilst I'm sure there are some who use breaking methods similar to what you describe (in every country!), to tar all Irish trainers with this brush is ignorant and, quite frankly, offensive.
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Please read my post properly.
 
Your post makes it pretty clear you regard this as a uniquely Irish phenomenon.
If you'd read MY original post, I asked for advice on either bitting (which has been taken on board gratefully), or suggestions for exercises to try and correct the tilt.
I'm not sure how or why the Irish connection was floated. All I asked for was help with a symptom and we are extremely thankful for all useful suggestions.
It seems a little redundant at this point to ask about where the mare was broken and where she is based.
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Your post makes it pretty clear you regard this as a uniquely Irish phenomenon.
If you'd read MY original post, I asked for advice on either bitting (which has been taken on board gratefully), or suggestions for exercises to try and correct the tilt.
I'm not sure how or why the Irish connection was floated. All I asked for was help with a symptom and we are extremely thankful for all useful suggestions.
It seems a little redundant at this point to ask about where the mare was broken and where she is based.
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Uniquely Irish, no, but a very common problem caused by the traditional method of "mouthing" horses in this country. IF your horse was broken in Ireland (and I'd be guessing it might have been...) then the problem you are having COULD be related to the way it has been started, that is all I am saying. It could also be caused by any number of things which have been suggested by other responses to your post. I am based in Ireland, very often see horses with precisely the problem you are asking for help with and spend a great deal of my time correcting it, so have some insight to offer you. You appear to be insulted by the suggestion that some training methods in Ireland are the cause of mouth and contact problems later on: this has been my experience and I continue to see the training methods I described being used. If that is redundant, so be it. Chill.
 
My mistake Palindrome. It's not my horse and owner has changed bit from Happy Mouth to Myler since I last spoke to her, hoping it would make a difference (it didn't, unfortunately).

Cortez I'd be delighted to hear any suggestion you may have regarding what we do In trying to correct the tilting. You didn't mention experience of actually addressing this issue. She's drawing her tongue back.
Not much we can do about how or where she was broken.
 
Which myler? There are many some with, some without ports. Same with happy mouth? Also many happy mouths have tongue bobbles was it one of those or not?

Fwiw Cortez is one of the most experience horse trainers on this forum, she wasn't trying to be anti irish just making suggestions as to why the problem occurred, because if you can identify the why it is a better starting point to start thinking of solutions! Of course you cannot undo what was done but just knowing can help you go forwards.

It is hard to make suggestions unless you have a comprehensive list of what has been tried and whether it many any difference at all or not otherwise we might just be repeating what you have already tried.
As asked previously have you ridden the mare bitless which would potentially indicate it is a purely a mouth problem? Does she do it lunged?
There is a reason people are asking these questions before suggesting solutions!
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
My mistake Palindrome. It's not my horse and owner has changed bit from Happy Mouth to Myler since I last spoke to her, hoping it would make a difference (it didn't, unfortunately).

Cortez I'd be delighted to hear any suggestion you may have regarding what we do In trying to correct the tilting. You didn't mention experience of actually addressing this issue. She's drawing her tongue back.
Not much we can do about how or where she was broken.
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Happy to offer some ideas based on my experience. Essentially you will have to start from the beginning again to teach the horse to trust the rider's hand, and how to respond to pressure from the bit without ducking behind the contact, or leaning on it, or trying to evade it by raising the head, or tilting it (a variety of the evasions on offer...). The most difficult thing to solve is the problem of curling the tongue up behind the bit; this prevents the horse from ever being comfortable, and renders the bit incapable of communicating as it is designed to. The first thing I would do is lunge the horse in side reins adjusted evenly (not shorter on the inside as is sometimes done), longer and lower than would be usual - the rein should be no higher than the point of the horse's shoulder, or even lower, and adjusted so that the horse's nose is beyond the verticle when trotting. You may need to have the bit slightly higher in the mouth than normal. The choice of mouthpiece will depend on how the horse responds - some need a very stable feel, perhaps a straight bar or mullen mouth, some a sloppier mouthpiece like a 3-link snaffle (neuschule or similar). The idea is to push the horse forwards until it trusts the reins and is happy with the contact, sounds simple, but it can take a really long time to achieve.

Does the horse go with it's mouth open? Oh, and how old?

I don't want to go on and on, but it is a long road to retrain this kind of basic mistake in the building blocks of a horse's training, and it MUST be solved before you can progress. The contact between the rider's leg and hand is the ediface of the whole thing.
 
Thank you Cortez! So essentially we're going back to the beginning? She's only 6. She keeps her mouth more or less closed.
I'll hand this suggestion over. I've never seen the mare being lunged in side reins so I'm pretty sure they've only tried to correct this under saddle.
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Thank you Cortez! So essentially we're going back to the beginning? She's only 6. She keeps her mouth more or less closed.
I'll hand this suggestion over. I've never seen the mare being lunged in side reins so I'm pretty sure they've only tried to correct this under saddle.
Click to expand...

That's where I would start, and once the mare is reaching forwards to the contact on the lunge, try and replicate the same thing under saddle. It's a long road - the last horse I had with this exact same problem took over two years to really accept the bridle and be able to progress, but he was a really extreme case. Sometimes riding bitless for a while helps, and continuing to lunge on the sidereins. Getting a really good instructor is key if you/they are not experienced with this sort of issue. Good luck.
 
Sorcha Fitzpatrick said:
Cortez. Your comments are a sweeping generalisation. This horse was professionally broken in a very sympathetic manner, draw reins or tight side reins were never used. Same owner from a foal.
Whilst I'm sure there are some who use breaking methods similar to what you describe (in every country!), to tar all Irish trainers with this brush is ignorant and, quite frankly, offensive.
Click to expand...


You need to re-read the post by Cortez, that was made in your best interests because you asked a question and not need to get so defensive.

Personally if it was me you were throwing accusations like that around at I wouldn't be so civil. When you ask a question, and get a reply you don't like, you need to be able to take it without jumping down their throat, because what she said WAS valid - I saw no mention of the horses backstory before.

"quite frankly" I found your comment offensive...
 
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