Heather Moffat Treeless saddle - urgent opinions sought

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hackedoff

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Hi all

i would like feedback from HM saddle current or previous users. I am contemplating purchasing one and will be sending payment of today! Its the fheonix version.

I am 5foot 2 , 11 stone (overwight!!!). Pony is 14.3hh veteran. We do long hacks and schooling. If I compete next eyar it will be dressage and pleasure rides as vet has advised to be wary of hard work on surfaces and too much concussion.

I have had terrible problems with treed saddles recently he is fitted with a wide fit with a slight dip, went upto x wide in summer and is now almost a medium all in the space of 9 months! I have had his saddle adjusted twice in teh last year and flocking redone. Last time I was told it was fine and i was being paranoid - his winter coat now shows two lovely white marks where the stirrup bars would be! So I think treed saddles will no longer work for him.
 
hmmm, this is a tough one.

if he has white marks from the stirrup bars, then your previous saddle did not fit him/was very faulty. stirrup bars usually only cause pressure if the saddle is very faulty/very badly flocked/VERY badly made. or it's an adjustable saddle that some one has adjusted too wide for the tree to cope with.

also, whilst ponies/horses do really change shape, from xwide - medium is quite a change, and, unless there was a reason for the dramatic change (laminitis/massive weight loss/injury) i'd be looking into how he's lost so much 'width'. - it could be due to a badly fitting saddle?

is your saddle fitter recommended by other people? it might be worth asking for opinions on here.

anyway, the HM saddle... you won't know if it fits your horse without trying it on. also, you need to have ridden in one, because some people HATE riding in them (other love it).

another issue i have with treeless saddles (less so the HM ones, as they seem to be slightly better made) is that the stirrup bars aren't attached to a tree which means they are more likely to cause pressure points (the tree usually distributes the weight along the length of the saddle), so, i'd be aware of this.

i honestly advise you get a fitter out, or go find one of the HM fitters to see if 1) you like riding in them 2) if they fit your horse 3) what size you'd need.

then, you can buy a second hand one, and have that fitted.

sorry i can't be of more help. good luck :)

eta: i'm not sure you've had problems with saddles because they are treed... more like you've had problems with the saddles you've had... which are treed. if that makes sense?
 
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I rode in one my share horse had 4 years ago. They would loan you one for about £50 for a few weeks, and if you wanted to buy it or a brand new one that came off the purchase price I think. The highland in question's owner and I did that, and we both loved riding in it. I was 5'11 and 13 stone. His owner was a bit shorter and much lighter.
 
Tree's make the saddle safer as they do not slip or move but blood flow will be restricted which can cause tissue damage.

While the Treless saddles may be great for the horse I have heard of them slipping and this can cause a bad accident and is the worst thing for a young horse if it slips back.

The SemiFlex saddles provide security for the rider and optimum comfort for the horse. The Front and back rise when the rider sits and the points flex in and out to allow blood flow and movement of the spine. My OH will also come out to ride your horse, while Barrie Swain adjusts it to fit your horse to make sure your horse is happy aswell.

You can pm me if you would like more details.
 
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Hi saddle fitter was a msf, they did not sell the saddle to me though, just adjusted it. It is a good quality saddle, but thinking about it I added quite thick martingale stops to the bars to keep the leathers further back I wonder it this created the pressure points? he does go up and down in wieght a lot and I am hoping to keep him to his current weight from now on. I have tried a HM, and it was okayish but not a real WOW feel about it for me or him. I keep thinking I am about to make a big mistake financially where as MSF is willing to come out and swap for a saddle fitted by her which would be more versatile as well as fitting (current saddle is a wh). OHH I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!!
 
Oi Better Half! Promoting your hubby again? I thought this was a thread about HM saddles, not an advert for Barry Swain and your Other Half.
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HM saddles still need to fit correctly, but if they do, and if you like the feel of riding in them, they can be great. If you are buying second-hand then the good news is that they hold their value well and tend to do well on EBay. I like my HM saddle very much, and with the correct padding and a Professionals Choice girth, it's stable enough for me. I don't normally get on from the ground mind you, but in ridden work it's not a problem. For a horse that changes shape a lot it can be a good solution, but you may need to get a HM backsaver pad and or wither pad to sort out a good fit.
 
p.s. when you have a saddle fitting, unless there are some physical issues, you of course need to ride yourself. The saddle needs to suit your horse and you, not your horse and another rider.
 
Without subverting my own thread -better Half why would your husband come out to ride my horse? Do people do this normally when saddle fitting?
 
better half said:
Tree's make the saddle safer as they do not slip or move but blood flow will be restricted which can cause tissue damage.
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um, a well fitting treed saddle will not cause restricted blood flow... it is pressure points that do this.

equally, a treeless saddle can cause pressure points... and therefore tissue damage!

same applies to a BS semi-flex too...

:p
 
Hackedoff, probably too late if you have to pay for the saddle today, but whereabouts are you? Maybe worth getting a HM fitter (or HM saddle owner) out to try one before buying.
 
I hired a HM trial saddle on recommendation from a friend - when it came I was surprised how poor quality the leather was and thought it very expensive for what it was - the horse didnt go any better in it either! Since have brought a made to measure from Clare Fitzmaurice of All saddle solutions for a very wide shouldered ISH/cob and he goes very well in it and I like the quality and find it both comfortable and secure! His weight fluctuates and I add a lighweight cloth underneath when he is fat and full time in the field and poly pad when he is trim and fitter, this has worked really well for the last 18mths.
 
I loved my fheonix on my old horse, and on riding instructors horse that was ridden in one all the time.. Felt like I learnt quite a lot just from being able to feel what was going on underneath...

BUT I hated it on my current horse - a frequently tense, bouncy cob and sold it straight after having it professionally fitted for him (because he was so completely different from the previous one, and I was too gutless to mess about with the panels to that extent)
 
I tried out one that belongs to a friend. Was absoulutely no use for my high withered horse. We changed the panels but it was never going to fit her. It sat very downhill on her and was very uncomfortable for my hips.

I would definitely try before buying.
 
I speak to 1000's of people having problems with their horses, saddles can cause some of these problems. It is difficult not to mention the OH as I do know he can help. But I also know what does not work/causes problems for a lot of people and do feel strongly enough to help out when someone has asked.

It is important to see a horse stretch right down in a new saddle to feel how they react and get the balance right with small adjustment that can be made on sight. This can be done again and again until the horse is happy, then the owner/rider can feel the difference. I am not saying this can not be achieved by the horse owner but it is free of charge to get MP to do this so most people like to see how their horses will move in a comfortable saddle with a rider that will allow free movement. I think BS just want to get it right and trusts MP opinion of how the horse feels so he can send MP out with his apprentice in the future.
 
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I woudl really advise trialling one. In tried one from www.bettersaddles.com and it was great - had chance to get my saddle fitter/chiro to see it before I bought it too.

I think they have the HM saddles - I bought a barefoot saddle with a physio pad - no rubs or pressure points for me.

Re saddle slipping,if you have the longest girth possible, so it goes as far up the straps as it can, this seems to stop the slipping. :)
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of saddles! Unfortunately a saddle that works for every horse has not been invented yet :rolleyes:

Have you done a google to see what comes up for HM Fhoenix? There have been plenty of threads about them on various forums, some of these will be cached and will come up if you search. I have no first hand experience (other than sitting on an original Fhoenix on a well behaved horse and sitting on a Vogue on a well behaved equisimulator, found both v comfy) but there are folk out there who have interesting things to say about them ;)
 
I don't blame you there is so much mumbo jumbo out there. Sorry to add to your confussion. We do have a treeless saddle that ended up in our hedge, you are welcome to it but it should come with a health warning. lol (don't ask why it is in the hedge). pm me if you want to collect it.
 
DON'T TOUCH WITH A BARGEPOLE!!!

We had 2, the fheonix and the SBS 9the model before the Fhoenix. Within 2 months of getting the Fhoenix one horse had white marks on her back under the stirrup bars. I was able to send the saddle back for a full refund. i went back to her treed saddle and all was fine and the white marks eventually went.

The SBS didn't leave white marks on the back of the other horse, but left little hollows on her back. i sold that saddle on Ebay and bought a new treed saddle . With time the hollows went.

We were vigilant and kept checking the horses' backs so avoided longterm damage. Personally i wouldn't part with your cash for these saddles. Get a BS semi-flex like we did!

bye!
 
better half said:
Tree's make the saddle safer as they do not slip or move but blood flow will be restricted which can cause tissue damage.

The SemiFlex saddles provide security for the rider and optimum comfort for the horse. The Front and back rise when the rider sits and the points flex in and out to allow blood flow and movement of the spine. My OH will also come out to ride your horse, while Barrie Swain adjusts it to fit your horse to make sure your horse is happy aswell.
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As CCP says blood flow is only restricted to the point of tissue damage if the saddle does not fit.

Genuine question here (not trying to cause an argument- just a discussion)- the job of the tree is to be the saddles skeleton to give it shape and also to help distribute pressure. A well fitting saddle spreads the weight over a large an area as possible to minimise the pressure in any one area. If the semiflex trees rise at the front and back when the rider sits, surely more weight is concentrated over the middle of the saddle when this happens? i.e. pressure is increased in the middle. And if the points flex out and in then does the front of the saddle not have potential to sit too low, as the points flex out. Also meaning that higher up the points dig in to the side of the wither?

Im not entirely sure how this semiflex tree works?

OP- treeless or not, a saddle still needs to be fitted to an individual horse. I really would try one before you buy one
 
I have had one and would never, under any circumstances, have another. Just because it is treeless doesn't mean it will fit all horses, and I am now extremely reluctant to put anything on my girls that doesn't have a tree.
 
teddyt said:
As CCP says blood flow is only restricted to the point of tissue damage if the saddle does not fit.

Genuine question here (not trying to cause an argument- just a discussion)- the job of the tree is to be the saddles skeleton to give it shape and also to help distribute pressure. A well fitting saddle spreads the weight over a large an area as possible to minimise the pressure in any one area. If the semiflex trees rise at the front and back when the rider sits, surely more weight is concentrated over the middle of the saddle when this happens? i.e. pressure is increased in the middle. And if the points flex out and in then does the front of the saddle not have potential to sit too low, as the points flex out. Also meaning that higher up the points dig in to the side of the wither?

Im not entirely sure how this semiflex tree works?

OP- treeless or not, a saddle still needs to be fitted to an individual horse. I really would try one before you buy one
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I am not a saddle fitter but if the saddle has a spine then it makes sense to me, that a spine should flex so to not restrict the normal curvature and movement of the horses spine. Even a well fitted treed saddle can only fit if the horse is still as a rigid tree will not flex as the horse moves. The movement in a semiflex is not that large as to allow the saddle to sit low on the wither.
 
But the panel (if properly flocked) flexes. Thats what allows the horse to move. If the panel were rigid too then of course movement would be restricted but by allowing the tree to move at the front and back, more pressure is surely created in the middle?
 
Pressure points become sore these are caused in old people in my experience from sitting down in the same position for to long as the bl. flow slows and sore develope.
It is not there fore in my opinion sitting on the chair which cause sores but the lack of bl. flow in the circulation. The semiflex movement encourages bl. flow so the muscles behind the wither can grow as the horse worked when ridden. A lot of horses can be seen to have muscle wastage behind the saddle and the semiflex seems to help this. I am very interested in looking into saddle more as I think there is going to be a better way and it is good that so many people are looking to make them better.

So I don't think the panel allows enough movement the same as sinking in to a comfortable chair.
 
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But it is the sitting in the chair that causes the reduced circulation. Remove the chair, OR use a chair that is soft enough and it moulds to the body then the circulation isnt compromised. The blood flow isnt reduced to the point of pressure sores on its own.

In respect to the tree flexing up at the front and back, then yes, more blood could get to the muscles in these areas. however that will be at the expense of bloodflow under the middle of the saddle as this area will be taking more than its fair share of weight- hence a much greater chance of problems here.
 
teddyt said:
But it is the sitting in the chair that causes the reduced circulation. Remove the chair, OR use a chair that is soft enough and it moulds to the body then the circulation isnt compromised. The blood flow isnt reduced to the point of pressure sores on its own.

In respect to the tree flexing up at the front and back, then yes, more blood could get to the muscles in these areas. however that will be at the expense of bloodflow under the middle of the saddle as this area will be taking more than its fair share of weight- hence a much greater chance of problems here.
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Pressure sores 'bed' or saddle are one of the problems that everyone wants to find the answer to how ever 'soft' a chair is sores can still be caused if no movement is made. The fact there is a tree in the semiflex should take the pressure off the middle of the saddle. I don't know enough but I can see how many horses like it and how their movement frees up.
 
Like with any saddle, some people love them and some people hate them.

The main reason I would not have one? Because when people have had issues with them Heather Moffit point blank refused to accept that there is an issue with pressure under the saddle bars, she blames it on everything except the flaw in the saddle. Everyone that has had issues with white marks has been when they have increased the amount of riding they do (from light to medium work). Moffit has been condescending and in some cases, down right rude.

Also I don’t think they look very nice!

If you only plan on doing light work ( a couple of short hacks a week for instance) then go for it.

Took me a few goes to find a saddle for my boy, when saddle fitter got mine out of her truck it was the least favourite on the list, then I rode in it, floated round the school and it’s the only saddle I can hack out in for over an hour without needing a seat saver! :D
 
Apologies OP. Am completely hijacking your post :o

better half said:
Pressure sores 'bed' or saddle are one of the problems that everyone wants to find the answer to how ever 'soft' a chair is sores can still be caused if no movement is made. The fact there is a tree in the semiflex should take the pressure off the middle of the saddle. I don't know enough but I can see how many horses like it and how their movement frees up.
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Sores occur because of pressure reducing blood flow sufficiently for the tissues to break down due to lack of nutrients and removal of waste products. On a horse the tissues rarely get to this point because the saddle is removed before the tissues get to the point of open sores, hence blood flow gets back ito the tissues and the extreme damage is prevented. Also, on a horse the lesser damage goes unseen because of the hair. In a human, pressure damage can be seen much quicker due to the lack of hair. And old people tend to stay in bed or in a chair alot longer than an hour or two- the cause of the pressure isnt removed for very long, hence damage builds up quicker. A saddle is only on once a day or less for a relatively shorter period of time. If the saddle is used more, the rider is heavy or the saddle a very bad fit then the resulting pressure will show up quicker than if the saddle were infrequently used, a light rider or the saddle only slightly wrong.

Every individual will put up with the pressure differently, some may not show any signs for a long time but more likely signs are not noticed or ignored.

If the tree fits and the panel are soft, then blood flow is allowed into the tissues and no one area carries an excess of pressure. But if the tree flexes up at the front and back i cannot see how the middle does not carry more weight- hence creating a greater pressure in the middle. The shoulder may be able to move more freely but the area in the middle will have lower blood flow than the front and back because it has greater pressure. unless you can convince me otherwise :)

The fact there is a tree in the semiflex should take the pressure off the middle of the saddle
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I dont get this point? Its the tree that is potentially creating the extra pressure in the middle.
 
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