Help!!!!!! Bolshy youngster.

[Louiseandmaddie]

HI THERE

I was wondering if any of you have some tips on how to be the top dog with your horse. I'm having trouble with my 4 nearly 5 year old welsh D who is always pushing to be more the dominant out of the two of us from snatching treats, searching my pockets, invading my personal space to kicking. Any tips on little ways that I can improve things to stay on top.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated

thanks in advance x

 

[Welly]

I would start with stopping feeding treats, and then with a firm hand make sure he does everything your way no exceptions. Good luck.

 

[Princess16]

Definitely stop hand feeding treats unnecessarily. Have you tried clicker training? It has worked with mine being pushy. It is click and reward (usually with treats) but done in a controlled manner.

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

Thanks for that x

He always stands so close, how do I deal with this? I've been giving him the "back" command until he's at what I consider to be the right distance, he does back up but puts his ears back and just comes straight back again, am I doing the right thing or a I missing a trick here?

I've never owned a horse this pushy before and am trying to sort this respect thing out because he has kicked me before so any advice is extremely welcome. I wouldn't consider myself a novice, I've had 2 horses before and numerous loans growing up but as I said he's just a bit pushier that I'm used to and I'd rather nip this in the bud.

I'll look up on the internet about the clicker training princess16 x

Thanks Guys x

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Take him to boot camp with a professional trainer who will show you how to deal with this. You are the master and he is the servant, That is your rule, you must be fair and you must be consistent and don't feed treats, why would you?
There is a space round your body called personal space, he is not ever allowed in to this.
Man up!
Some horses are sweeties and have been taught respect and are not of the bolshie type, this is not the case with this one and if you don't sort it out asap it will end in tears.
Use a control halter to handle him. Tie him up when grooming with a normal halter, is he broken to ride? If so tack him up when tied up, and ask your instructor for ongoing advice.
If you don't sort him out someone will get hurt, and he will get a reputation as dangerous, when actually he is just not sure who is boss.
Don't ever allow him to get in to a position to kick you, handle with authority and have hold of his head.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I have had a big mare who attacked with her teeth at every opportunity, she was 600kgs of pure power, and due to her owner messing about she had to have rigourous re-training, this included being bopped on the nose/teeth with a twitch stick on several occasions. She was actually a sweetie,and a wonderful ride, one day when I was out on my own a pheasant got up under her legs and I came off, she trotted off towards the stable, but when I called her she came back to me, it was wonderful to know we had such a close bond. I still have the teeth marks from our first encounter when the idiot holding her door let her through it to attack me. She did not hold a grudge, horse are not like that. We found a middle road with her, but it was all due to bad upbringing.

 

[Casey76]

He isn't really bolshy, he has bad manners. Every time you handle him you have to reinforce good manners. You are in charge of where he puts his feet. If you ask him to stand, he stands there. If he moves, you move him back immediately... every single time. Temper this with rewards ("good boy" etc scratch on the withers, stroke down the neck). First of all expect him to stand for 1 second before rewarding, then 2, then 5. Build up slowly, but correct every foot movement.

It is tedious and it does take time, but i can leave my stable doors open without my ponies going for a wander, I can also park my mare in a corner of the school while I tidy up and she will stand there - and I ALWAYS reward when I go back. My mare is further along than my youngster, but I can "lead" her without a lead rope, from the fields, around the yard etc.

For the rooting around in your pockets... stop all hand feeding treats, stop keeping treats in your coat pocket and wash your coat - if possible wear a different coat for a few weeks until he learns not to associate a specific item of clothing with treats. If he does get over eager and looks in your pockets, correct him (ah!) and back him up and ask him to stand. reward with you stepping into his space and "good boy"/scratch/stroke etc.

Clicker/target training is actually very good to combat mugging, but it is easier if you can stop the mugging behaviours without using treats first.

good luck

 

[Princess16]

Read Alex Kurlands book on CT really good and covers all areas inc spacial awareness. I also reward in a bucket as opposed to by hand and sometimes just a rub on the withers or poll (my boy's fave areas) instead of treats. TBH my boy wasn't as dangerous as your horse sounds - I've never been kicked or seen his ears back so that could be a whole new ball game. Maybe some professional help would be more beneficial for you in the first instance as you certainly don't want to put yourself in any danger !

Good luck!

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

OOOOOOH BONKERS2 I LIKE YOU!!!!

Straight talking and decisive thank you that's exactly what I need.

Yes he was broken last summer but his last owner didn't keep him for long as she was too nervous for him and inturn made him nervous and I think he's also turned into a spoilt brat, doesn't like being told what to do. I've managed to get hold of the breeder and they broke him themselves and they said he was very straightforward to back and handle and were very pleased with him , they were very disappointed to hear that he'd been sold on again so quickly and now had problems.

Do you have any recommendations as to which control halter to get?

Thanks again x

 

[SpringArising]

There is a space round your body called personal space, he is not ever allowed in to this.
Man up!

Very much agree with this sentiment.

I'm really not one for violence when it comes to animals, but you're going to need to get tough. He sounds exactly like how my Welsh D was at 5. He hadn't been taught any manners and bit, kicked, bucked, wouldn't stand still etc. I only ever gave him one almighty smack (with a crop I was already carrying), and that was when he tried to kick me. I didn't shout or do it more than once, but I could honestly see the shock in his eyes at the precision and quickness of how it was done. Once you've let them know it's not okay, it's really important just to go back to normal and forget anything's happened.

Teach him that when you say back, you mean back. Don't stand there saying 'Back, back, back, back!' without getting results. If you tell him to move and he doesn't, do something about it, and quickly. I taught mine that me clicking my fingers in the air meant move back and don't stop until I say so. It was such a useful 'trick' to teach him. I didn't have to say anything - I didn't even have to look at him to get him to get out of my space.

I really can't stand horses who have no concept of personal space. So don't feed treats from your hand unless you are rewarding good behaviour (and by that I don't mean just because he's standing still), and don't ask for something if you're not genuinely expecting a result. If you tell him to move and he doesn't and you let him get away with it, you're just teaching him not to take notice of you!

Sometimes I felt mean being super strict, but I thought of it as setting him up for the future.

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

Casey76

Thank you that's great information that makes complete sense and I'm also going to put my jumper and coat in the wash now x

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

You are all so helpful thank you so much x

I'm going to reread all of your replys a few times to make sure it all sinks in for later when I go to see him later.

 

[Dry Rot]

Get (or make -- if you're mean like me!) an ordinary rope halter and, most important of all, learn how to use it. Pressure and instant release when the horse complies. Consistent firm pressure when it doesn't. Split second timing in giving when the horse complies (even by shifting it's body weight) is critical.

Always carry a small stick about the size of your finger with a blunt point on the end. Do not hit or prod or wave this at your horse but let it walk into it held firmly when it attempts to invade your space.

Excuse my bluntness, but your post comes across as if this is a war zone. I don't believe horses think like that. All they want is a quiet life. Teach them the boundaries and be consistent about their staying within (or outside) those boundaries and it will learn manners.

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

lol Dry rot no not a war zone you'll be glad to hear just trying to stay on track to make sure things don't get out of hand x

Thanks all.

 

[flirtygerty]

Repitition, patience and confidence, I rarely need to raise my voice to my four, sometimes my WB mare needs reminding and my young cob is a work in progress, but he just loves being with people, the mare is an ex brood mare and has in the past used her bulk to bully people, even after 3 yrs she can still catch me off guard, the cob needs constant reminders, he moves, I put him back as many times as needed till he gets the idea, personal space, he can't grasp yet, so I carry a bottle with gravel in and shake it when he comes too close, or turn, square my shoulders and make him back up, if he even thought about kicking he would get the lead rope across his backside and chased off till I called him back, that method worked really well when my Trotter X wouldn't let the others near me, wanting attention for himself, hated doing it, but even he needs to know his place

 

[epeters91]

My young welsh part bred went through a time of being bolshy andthe behaviour was worse around food. She's cannot have treats as a reward she gets a fuss, if treats are involved she stops concentrating on what you are doing. If she does get a treat and she tries to search for more a tap her nose whenever she brings it within my personal space and she's learnt to stop searching after a tap. If she has a feed she has learnt she has to wait for it this began in the field with a schooling whip she wasn't touched with it I just kept it between me, the feedbucket and her she wasn't allowed to come eat until she stopped trying to push forward and she was relaxed with ears forward. If I take feed into the stable now I will say back and she knows to back away and let me put the food down.

We also worked on backing up because sometimes her concentration lapses and she can step off while your in the way, if this happens I will say back and push her back if needed. I always stand my ground and use my voice to tell her it's not acceptable and that this is my space then a good fuss and lots of nice words when she backs away and stands nicely.

It takes a while but she's become a lot better and makes everything easier when they respect you

 

[LHIS]

He sounds like he just needs to learn some manners. Have you considered some training with him to teach him some? I am a Kelly Marks / Intelligent Horsemanship convert, her book 'perfect manners' is all about it and tells you how to teach your horse. My pony is fluent in it and is a dream to handle the vast majority of the time (he's only 5 so has his moments still). Good luck x

 

[D66]

If he gets too close you can "windmill" your arms, if he gets hit he'll jump back. When he is out of range, you stop and carry on what you were doing. Needs no special equipment! Don't step towards him/chase him while doing this - if you are consistent he will soon learn to stop am arms length away you.

 

[Barnacle]

Do you lunge him at all? If so, do you have a space you can use to free lunge? That is the easiest way to teach horses to pay attention and give you space. After you've chased one around with a flag for an hour, they look at humans (or at least you) differently. And if you repeat the exercise every now and then, the idea is reinforced.

Your aim should be to get the horse moving and changing direction in a neat circle on your (body language) commands.

I take them into an arena or smaller field and stand in the middle, point, click and send them off with a schooling whip (I attach a 'flag' - light piece of cloth or plastic bag in extreme cases - only if the horse ignores a simple schooling whip). It's important to give the commands in that order. So you reinforce your body language and voice command with the whip - I smack it on the ground and move towards the horse's bum purposefully if they aren't motivated enough. Then you want the horse traveling at a trot or canter and if it tries to change direction on its own, you go after it and force it to go back the way it was going. This is really important - YOU decide where the horse goes and whether it's allowed to slow down. After a while horses will fall into a neat circle at a trot to minimise their effort.

This is a good time to start encouraging them to change direction on your signal... The signal is a step back to 'draw them in'. If they attempt to change direction with their bum to you rather than turning in, you send them back on their way in the same direction (meaningfully - lots of clicking, walking purposefully towards them, activity to show they didn't do it right) and try again once they are back on the circle again. When they come in and are facing you, you can give the horse a moment to rest (they are often puffing at this point) before continuing. Again you point, click and move towards the other side of their bum to get them going in the other direction. Flick the whip and then smack it on the ground if they don't get the idea but it's usually not necessary by this point.

Most horses will figure this all out the very first time within an hour and though it does involve a lot of running around that first time, they improve rapidly after that and you barely have to move. What this exercise teaches the horse is that you are in control of its feet and you can make him move when you want to. The horse learns to be focused on you and to look to you for opportunities to rest. In the process, they learn some respect for your space because you could decide to chase them away at any moment. Ultimately what you want is for your horse to treat you the way it does the grumpy old mare that can tell your horse to p*ss off one moment and invite it back over for a grooming session the next. You do have to reinforce this all in every context - you need to have it in your head that anything you do with a horse is a training opportunity and learning experience for it. So never, ever give treats to a horse if it didn't do something to earn them. And always make your horse repeat a motion if it didn't do it how you wanted. For instance if your horse barges through you and out its stable, make it go back in, make it wait at the open door, back it up every time it puts a foot forward (tap chest - gently but 'annoyingly'- with a whip if necessary) and repeat over and over until the activity is dead boring and the horse barely wants to come out any more anyway.

Patience and persistence are key!

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

Thanks to all of you out there for that, I've got loads to try now x

 

[Princess16]

Do you lunge him at all? If so, do you have a space you can use to free lunge? That is the easiest way to teach horses to pay attention and give you space. After you've chased one around with a flag for an hour, they look at humans (or at least you) differently. And if you repeat the exercise every now and then, the idea is reinforced.

Your aim should be to get the horse moving and changing direction in a neat circle on your (body language) commands.

I take them into an arena or smaller field and stand in the middle, point, click and send them off with a schooling whip (I attach a 'flag' - light piece of cloth or plastic bag in extreme cases - only if the horse ignores a simple schooling whip). It's important to give the commands in that order. So you reinforce your body language and voice command with the whip - I smack it on the ground and move towards the horse's bum purposefully if they aren't motivated enough. Then you want the horse traveling at a trot or canter and if it tries to change direction on its own, you go after it and force it to go back the way it was going. This is really important - YOU decide where the horse goes and whether it's allowed to slow down. After a while horses will fall into a neat circle at a trot to minimise their effort.

This is a good time to start encouraging them to change direction on your signal... The signal is a step back to 'draw them in'. If they attempt to change direction with their bum to you rather than turning in, you send them back on their way in the same direction (meaningfully - lots of clicking, walking purposefully towards them, activity to show they didn't do it right) and try again once they are back on the circle again. When they come in and are facing you, you can give the horse a moment to rest (they are often puffing at this point) before continuing. Again you point, click and move towards the other side of their bum to get them going in the other direction. Flick the whip and then smack it on the ground if they don't get the idea but it's usually not necessary by this point.

Most horses will figure this all out the very first time within an hour and though it does involve a lot of running around that first time, they improve rapidly after that and you barely have to move. What this exercise teaches the horse is that you are in control of its feet and you can make him move when you want to. The horse learns to be focused on you and to look to you for opportunities to rest. In the process, they learn some respect for your space because you could decide to chase them away at any moment. Ultimately what you want is for your horse to treat you the way it does the grumpy old mare that can tell your horse to p*ss off one moment and invite it back over for a grooming session the next. You do have to reinforce this all in every context - you need to have it in your head that anything you do with a horse is a training opportunity and learning experience for it. So never, ever give treats to a horse if it didn't do something to earn them. And always make your horse repeat a motion if it didn't do it how you wanted. For instance if your horse barges through you and out its stable, make it go back in, make it wait at the open door, back it up every time it puts a foot forward (tap chest - gently but 'annoyingly'- with a whip if necessary) and repeat over and over until the activity is dead boring and the horse barely wants to come out any more anyway.

Patience and persistence are key!

Thanks for this Barnacle I'm assuming this is what they call 'join up' ? I am going to try this with mine. Do you need a whip (as I don't have one) or can you use a lunging rope just in your hands without attaching it to him IFKWIM?

 

[mighty attom]

read Kelly marks books perfect partners,also perfect manners. will def help you. which area are you in?

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

We're near Worthing west sussex. I am working my way through Kelly's perfect manners book and I've been practicing what I've read on my "little angel" and It's really helping.
I'm also trying to desensitizing him as well so he doesn't overreact to everything which is another problem we have, he seems to be coming along really quickly in the last week or so, maybe he's starting to see me as his leader now I'm being firmer with him (but always fair and patient) and feels it's safe to rely on my judgement for reassurance in general. He seems to trust me more now and touching his ears is no longer out of the question and loves having them rubbed, (baby steps all the way)
Any ideas on desensitization for ultra panicky horses also very welcome

thanks for all your help guys x

 

[fburton]

Glad to hear you're having success with Perfect Manners. A good choice, I think!

Interesting to see the range of approaches recommended. All have the potential to work - indeed, they wouldn't have been suggested if they hadn't worked for the recommender. I have to say I tend towards the quiet, patient end of the spectrum, and not making a big fuss, but that's not to say that other ways are wrong.

 

[Louiseandmaddie]

Yes I definitely go for the calm and quiet approach as he's really quite reactive and nervous but also clatter around him a bit so he's not so jumpy at EVERYTHING which seems to be helping too so buckets get knocked about, brushes get banged out against the wall but always calm and patience. They all have good and bad day but the bad days are getting less and less and i'm sure it helps that I absolutely love him to bit

 

[fburton]

Very encouraging news, well done you!

I think clattering about is good to get them used to everyday stuff. Directing loud actions at them to change behaviour is kind of the opposite because you wouldn't want them to desensitize to those - one reason why I think shouty body language is best avoided (another being that, in attempting to change behaviour, you don't want them to become wary or fearful of you).

 

[Barnacle]

Thanks for this Barnacle I'm assuming this is what they call 'join up' ? I am going to try this with mine. Do you need a whip (as I don't have one) or can you use a lunging rope just in your hands without attaching it to him IFKWIM?

I have never called it join-up and hate the things implied by that phrase ... I just call it free-lunging. I think a lot of people use similar techniques but this is the version I have come to use personally, adapted according to what has worked and what I know of scientific research concerning horse behaviour. No, you definitely don't need a whip. I would recommend, however, using a stick or rod of some kind (any kind of "arm extender"!) simply because you can control where it goes much more accurately than a bit of rope (which is also the reason to use a schooling rather than lunging whip you see). Once they know what you're asking, you don't need to be holding anything and can just signal with your voice, hands and body alone.

Anyway it's great to hear that you are making some progress!

As far as desensitising, I think you'll find your horse improves simply with more groundwork as trust starts to build and he starts taking his cues from you. But if you want to actually do some fun exercises to help this along, anything involving obstacles is nice because it's very satisfying and successes are very clear-cut. Just remember to repeat until your horse does the exercise. If he refuses and you let him get away with it, he'll only get more fearful. You can put some trotting poles out and lead or lunge your horse over them until he's relaxed and then make things a bit more exciting by attaching plastic bags to them or even just placing random unfamiliar objects from home around the place and leading past and around. Going for walks in-hand outside is also great once your horse trusts you as you'll clearly see him looking to you for guidance and gaining confidence from your leadership. Also, when the weather is warm, use water to your advantage! Get the hose out and desensitise to water going everywhere... Find a stream and get your horse to walk through with you... When it's wetter you can also do this with puddles. Insist until he walks through calmly (most jump over a few times so watch they don't land on your feet - been there, got the t-shirt). Different surfaces on the ground are also great for desensitising and building trust. Really your imagination is the only limit!

One thing I'll say is take care you don't actually bombproof your horse before you have manners sorted or you might have to resort to extreme measures to get him to move out of your space and show you respect. Flighty horses are the easiest in this sense because you just need to wave your hand at them. When they get to the point where a whip being smacked on the ground next to them or a plastic bag on a stick is not taken seriously, things aren't so easy!

Horses are able to move each other around because there's a genuine threat they'll kick or bite each other... If you show them that nothing you do is to be taken as seriously as that kick/bite threat that they instinctively understand, they'll ignore you. Once you've got the manners instilled, you can remove that threat without a problem - but it's important to start with that on your side. (At least if, like me, you don't want to actually ever resort to hitting your horse.)