Help getting pony to soften over topline - also in CR, long, sorry!

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ecrozier

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Just after any additional suggestions really! Background is that as I'm not going to be jumping or eventing ( ) for quite some time, and got our 3 year old backed and hacking quietly now, I've offered to help people on the yard with their pony's flatwork.

He is a 6 yr old, as far as they know he was backed and then they bought him from a dealer so no huge info on his history. He has a serious pop in him, and really that is all their teenage kid wants to do, but mum would quite like to do some dressage and improve his way of going so I said I'd try and help!

Basically, I sat on him for first time tonight and he feels to me like he has never actually done ANY schooling. If you kick, he gets faster, if you pull, he stops. He is stiff as a board tbh, and he goes with his head held high and his neck properly set againt you! His walk is best pace as far as I am concerned as he doesn't rush, he's not exactly off the leg though! He ignores (or doesn't understand) subtle leg aids but if you give a bit of a reminder shove he doesn' appreciate it - but does react! Same kind of situation in trot but also quite unbalanced and feels 'rushy' more than in walk. I didn't attempt canter I must admit as trot was a little 'hectic'!

Have made him sound horrible, but he genuinely isn't, he just hasn't ever been asked to soften, relax or bend! So I spent about 40 mins trying to get him to flex through his neck, and stay slightly bent to the inside on both reins (particularly stiff on right). Initially didn't have a clue what I was askeng but by end he would happily turn his head to meet my foot on both sides.

However I didn't have much luck getting him to drop his head! Wasn't even thinking of asking for an outline, he needs to relax and stretch and work more from behind first! I must admit I was a little stumped as most of the horses I have ever ridden (including current 3 year old!) will soften and yield if you ask - even if they then tense up again! I know when I first started with mine his position of going was head high and back hollow, but he soon got the idea of stretching down and relaxing.

So, any suggestions? I can do almost whatever I like with him, I have a pessoa but I showed them how to use that on him the other day and even in that he just goes with head up - he genuinely seems to have no idea that any kind of contact can mean anything apart from stop - makes using a pessoa quite tricky as I really dont want to to go down the route of strapping head down as he is already VERY tense through neck! Have shown them how to do carrot stretches, sideways he can do but down between front legs was a struggle. I think he finds it very difficult to stretch over his topline....

Gosh sorry turned into an essay - glass of wine and ferrero rocher choclates to anyone who bothered reading the whole thing and would be very grateful of any suggestions!
 
i think you need to go abit slower, he is going to find it very difficult to flex atall as he will have prety much no topline muscle at all so you need to work on building that up as most of the muscle will be under his neck. what i would do is getting him stretching down from his wither rather than going in an outline just in walk till he learns to relax which will take time, just ride on the buckle and sit quietly until he starts to take the contact and drop his head lower,this should help relax the muscle underneath once he starts relaxing you can start teaching him to go in an outline but only for a few minutes at a time as he will find it difficult, and slowly build it up. just get him to slow everything down, i have succesfully reschooled my ex race horse this way as he had an upside down neck
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As miss_buffay said, and maybe some ToF in-hand to teach him to move off the leg. My pony was like this, and I've had to be very patient---many months.
 
Sorry, not made myself clear I don't think! Wasn't even considering trying to get him in an 'outline' for months! I have reschooled several 'upside down' horses in the past, what I'm trying to find is a way to get him to work on the buckle and stretch!! Everything I have had that reacts to a contact by tensing has always been OK to stretch eventually if you drop the contact and let them relax, but he doesn't seem to understand. I'm nt a believe in a forced outline anyway, goal over the winter with this pony would be to get him working very long and low, and establish rhythm/bend and if we get that worted work on some transitions.
My arab was totally giraffe like when I got him but if you gave a little massage on the bit and then fed him the rein he would work long and low, but because this lad has only ever worked with his head up, he even goes like that in the field. Every ounce of contact he has ever had in his mouth has been asking him to slow down/stop! I spent quite a while on him yesterday and at the end he was slightly more relaxed in that I could flex his neck both ways and his ears were forward/to the side rather than back, and his gullet was slightly softer, but I was after some ideas of exercises or anything like that to improve how relaxed I can get his neck.
I am also working on slowing him down but tbh with a horse that will tolerate a whole session in walk, which he will, I'd rather establish relaxation and bend in walk first as I think then he is more likely to relax and slow down in trot once we start working on that.
Good idea re ToF from the ground, can show his owners how to do that too. I quite like teaching lateral work from the ground initially so could make it a simpler version of that.
 

A lot to ask for the first time
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but sounds like you've sussed out what needs doing. I must admit I found schooling and teaching a 4yo easier than an older horse as older horses they tend to be set in their ways like dear Tia who likes to permanently bend to the left lol.

Anyway Tia was 10 when I'd bought her and I had to restart her like a youngster, she thought bend aids meant go faster lol and was a lot like the horse you describe - only obese with to much energy.
Slow down and take it right back to the very basics as if he is a youngster, I would hack out first..forget about where his head is. Start by teaching him the leg aids - going forward - turning and more importantly BEND - once that's established things will get a lot easier esp when you can work on a 20 mtr circle. Get him listening to you and thinking..work from walk upwards.

Schooling must be done in small bits before progressing to any sort of outline because he doesn't sound like he's anywhere near working like that yet, there is no rush. Every horse learns at different rates and has a different history.
 
Thanks bhpride. Tbh I must admit I wasn;t expecting him to be nearly as green as he is! Owners jump him all the time - lord only know how they steer round a course. Problem I will have is that I'll only be riding him once or twice a week I think and not sure teenage rider will be so keen on slowing everything down.

Def going to work from walk upwards - felt a bit bad as mum of owner was there yesterday and I think she though I was weird when I spend 40 mins wakling around! Def need to keep working on walk though until he will relax. Only interested in where his head is in the sense that its on the end of his neck and therefore part of his topline and thats what I need to get him to relax!

Just to reiterate to all who read the post and thought I was trying to get him to work in an outline, I wasn't!! Wouldn't even attempt that until he will walk trot and canted with his head low and and his neck relaxed!
 
LOl sorry bhpride, I didn't mean to come accross as a novice but re-readng it perhaps the mention of kick and pull and giving him a good shove made me sound a bit of a numpty - I'm certainly no pro but equally not a novice by any stretch - I was trying to get accross how he has I think been ridden previously! My little gelding has gone from a giraffe to working at elementary level, winning Novice tests and competing intro, and have helped a few others out with reschooling stargazers before, got a 3 yr old we've just backed and he is going very nicely.
I've just never met one before who doesn't relax eventually in walk and take the rein down!
 
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Thanks bhpride. Tbh I must admit I wasn;t expecting him to be nearly as green as he is! Owners jump him all the time - lord only know how they steer round a course. Problem I will have is that I'll only be riding him once or twice a week I think and not sure teenage rider will be so keen on slowing everything down.

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That's probably half the problem with the teenager jumping etc, he's expecting it when you get on. Could the rider be encouraged to have flatwork lessons? If not, twice a week schooling by yourself with jumping etc inbetween sounds perfect for the routine side of it, he'll soon learn you're for the stricter stuff lol.

The issue only you may have is that the teenager sends conflicting messages, such has pulling with the reins to turn rather than using her legs so it'd probably pay off for now if only you school so the horse gets to know what you expect from him
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Absolutely. Poor little pone has never been asked to relax/soften. Only go/stop/jump! I think if I suggest I can do him twice a week (probably ride twice initially then once he will relax a bit will get the lunge line out and work on muscle strength!) Actually once he will do that they could lunge him in the pessoa and then I could carry on riding twice - reckon we'd see some progress then!
They were having flatwork lessons but not really interested, kid just says 'oh he won't do it' so stops trying! Def conflicting messages - all steering is done via the reins as is stopping! Even our baby one will now turn a 10m circle (well, rugby ball shape really) with no rein contact at all, just seat, legs and looking where you are going - tried that on this boy yesterday as an experiment, he had not a clue!!

Doubt it will take much convincing for them not to do any flatwork with him though! Will try and talk them into hacking out a bit more and ride on the buckle, doubt they'll do that jumping but mum is quite good about only letting him jump a couple of times a week - would be every day otherwise!

Thanks for advice, at least sounds like I am not barking up the wrong tree!
 

Good luck, be prepared for the possibility of your work being undone in the long run though if you ever stopped schooling him. It's quite painful to bond and have the rewards of teaching a horse only to watch the owner undo it
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hence why I don't do what you're doing anymore. Fingers crossed it'll be ok anyway
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I would start by hacking and doing lots and lots of downwards and upwards transitions, literally every ten strides. Get him listening to you and coming off your leg. Then try to introduce a light but consistent contact and increase the length of time in between transitions, so he learns to go from leg to hand. Each time he drops his head scratch his neck. Then go back into the school and repeat, but literally stay on circles and figure eights - gradually increasing what you are doing so the length of walk/trot/canter grows but with him coming off your leg and into your hand. Dont think about bending, just circle and turn with him coming off your leg and it will come eventualy.

It sounds like he has been hooned about over jumps, you need to get him listening to you, responding off our leg and maintain a soft but consistent contact, which will get him 'up and together'

If he is forward and working properly in a consistent rhythm and listening to your leg, the head should come.
 
bhpride - very true. I am hoping that if I can get him going nicely over next 6 months or even a year while I am not allowed to event (pins in my leg have to be removed before allowed to go back to BE - doctors orders!) so will have th spare time anyway as my lad will just be doing BD (much les fitness work involved!) and 3yr old just hacking over winter so OH will do most of that. TBH am being a little selfish as think is very good as a refresher course for me in green horses (got a little complacent over last 18 months as now fine tuning mine rather than back to basics) and have our boy to start proper schooling with next year. I also think if I can get him going half decently, say respectable at prelim level, then a) owner will realise the benefit maybe?! and b) owners mum would quite like to ride him but nervous at the moment because he looks very sharp - he's not, he's marginally spooky and very rushed!! So if can get him relaxed I reckon she'd quite enjoy him!

R"R agree, will work on the transitions. Think will be a while before I can get him to work into hand, but def transitions and a bit more reactive to the leg is a priority at the moment!
 
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