Help Help!! Bullnosed Hooves 2 *PHOTOS* and newly barefoot front

ktj1891

ktj1891

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I managed to get some photos of my guys feet the today. So my boys hinds have always Bullnosed and I then took his hind shoes off back in April. They then appeared to improve dramatically and very quickly the bull nosing disappeared. However around 2 months ago the hinds have started to bullnose again! His diet has remained the same - pure condition and linseed. However recently he has gone onto kwikbeet and pro balance.

He gets turned out during the day everyday and has Adlib hay with the occasional slab of haylage.

I did have his fronts removed around the same time they started to change and in that time he has been to hospital for sinus surgery and moved yards.

So what could be causing this?

Also any comments on fronts would be great too off since mid September.

Okay so right Hind:

A210FE36-87BF-4AEE-B04A-141015256052_zpsh1h4yf43.jpg

A32835B3-7576-4C63-A050-534618BE9D99_zps5amggd0k.jpg


Left Hind:

3E491313-6531-4987-B7F9-3B90AE25885A_zps7ku5a1bw.jpg

2FD93452-FD62-4988-9B81-11CD9DF09C62_zpslrt6ov08.jpg


Left Fore:

A5ECD486-F4FB-46DC-88E4-2623E4B0422D_zpsjbggxsvo.jpg

75F05A5F-8647-4F1B-A543-63CCCFBA21CE_zps6bzyz7sh.jpg


Right Fore:

25064E1A-2D4C-49A3-824B-CDEB8F57306B_zpskrofxmw6.jpg

FEF74E58-2A50-4D45-8F50-8C356C4725ED_zpsnvej6uw2.jpg


Excuse the mud and wet!!
 
Interesting looking hind frogs, do you have any trouble with thrush?

Be interesting to see how fronts go!

What does your farrier/trimmer say?
 
Haven't communicated with farrier. His hind frogs are weird they are like attached on the sides to his hooves. (Sorry cannot explain that very well) like I cannot run a hoof pick smoothly down the lines of his frogs. They are also a but jagged and yucky looking. About a week ago I scrubbed with hibby scrub!
 
Yes I was going to mention some thrush treatment. Just clean with salt water and maybe use a spray like hypocare or I get silvesterol thrush ender from my trimmer to treat as a precaution. I think the bullnosing may correct itself in time without the confines of shoes. At least thats what my trimmer told me. My boys hinds were the same but now they normal! They just grew down at a better angle and shape. As you say they had improved and are now back it may be related to the stresses he has been through recently or lack of movement if he has been sick? I think the fronts look nice. They are decontracting my the looks of it and nice bars and frogs. Yes I think these are going to be lovely feet, well in my humble opinion anyhow! You can clearly see a change in hoof wall angle which probably coincides with his shoes coming off?? Amazing isnt it? Im sure the hinds will come right again given a bit of time. I would treat as if thrush there as they do look a bit infected to me. Good luck!
 
Okay I will try salt water and hypocare and see if that helps! He's a tb in case any one wonders so up until now he has probably worn shoes since he was two!
 
Just to show the comparisons from when his hinds were removed until now. As you can see his frogs seem to be very deformed then thrived and have now gone bad again!

Right Hind:

First removed- April
9134BBD3-E675-4A77-8341-7F66D62A8BE8_zpsdqlmimja.jpg

1C1CBEF6-3EA7-4A62-935E-2D039340FB84_zpsakdp9yxd.jpg


August
null_zps308b3374.jpg

null_zps4db0b0dd.jpg


Left Hind:

First Removed-April
F6AA05EC-DCAB-404C-AED7-F1FE0E903396_zpso2ogtmru.jpg

3DCEBB9A-D725-45D7-9D9C-5E5F5761473B_zpsidbtytvx.jpg


August
null_zpsdafe72b7.jpg

null_zps0cf6e23c.jpg


What you think?
 
Anyone else? Please please would appreciate comments - I have just ordered sole cleanse and hoof stuff from Redhorse!
 
ktj1891 said:
Anyone else? Please please would appreciate comments - I have just ordered sole cleanse and hoof stuff from Redhorse!
Click to expand...

Hello, these are very weak, delicate feet. The biggest problem is the lack of strength in the frog, digital cushion generally and the under run heels. Until these are better the bull nosing will continue I'm afraid. You need expert advice on how to correct these issues, from a good barefoot practitioner. It's not an easy job on your own.
 
I don't think I know enough to advise (Frank's bullnosing corrected pretty easily) but def work on the thrush, unless horse is comfortable enough to be landing heel first and use feet correctly I suspect it is unlikely that he can make the changes he needs to to his feet- he looks to have a pretty weak palmar hoof and his bars are pretty long so poss trying to make up for the work that the frogs aren't yet doing? Do you know how he is landing? Best way to tell is to take some video if you can?

What sort of work has he been doing? I wonder if they have regressed since the fronts came off whether he is moving less optimally too? how is he on his feet?

I am curious as to why one hind might be so much worse than the other, I wonder if others have any thoughts?

Sorry I can't be more helpful and can only offer general ponderings.
 
Mine had slight bullnosing on his hinds last year. He has hind end problems, and I attributed it to that. However, after starting on Forageplus last Feb, it grew out and he had fab looking hinds, until about 4 weeks ago when I noticed a little bullnosing again. It seems to coincide with (or just shortly follow) autumn grass flushes - every year we have an issue where he is on restricted grazing all summer and then we had to turn out on longer grass in September/October because his TB pals were hungry! I am expecting it to correct itself again over the next month or so. Could something similar be happening with yours?
 
Haven't paid much attention to how he is landing will try and video it. I have ordered red horse products but what can I use in the meantime. I have hiniscrub, purple spray, tea tree oil, obviously salt and honey. He has been working in school twice a week lunging and hacking out 2 days a week. 30/45 mins. He's quite slow working and noticed he is getting more and more sore. What's palmar hoof?
 
Well he has different grazing as obviously moved yards so not sure. He is a tb and poor doer so has as much forage as I can give!
 
back half of the hoof. I've used dilute milton before but have just acquired some of the red horse products as my lad had a bit of an issue with one frog recently. Does he feel good on all the surfaces he works on?
 
Has anyone checked his back/sacroiliac/hocks? Mine grew out bullnoses which then reappeared last winter as a result, I believe, of pain from kissing spines.
 
He was under investigation for toe dragging. But due to sinuses taking priority the claim runs out this month ��. It was believes to be his sacroiliac but ATM his sinuses are taking presidence over anything else.
 
He works okay in school although I don't think he completely tracks up. Out hacking he is quite slow and trepid with his steps. Although not lame definitely not confident in his stride!
 
I'm very much a 'novice' when it comes to true barefoot horses, but to me, there are event lines showing from approx 2/3 months ago - is that when he changed yards/grazing?
Have you added the kwikbeet to the feed ration or replaced the Pure Condition?
Kwik Beet has 16.5% Fibre, 5% Sugar and 13.2 DE mg/kg energy. The Pure Cond has 17.4% Fibre, 5% Sugar and 13 DE mg/kg so it could be the change from one to the other, or the addition of one to the other...
It seems to me - please correct me if I am wrong!! - that at some point in the last couple of months, your boy has had a boost of sugars in his diet/dietary upset, and has also got thrushy frogs, which is causing his hinds to bullnose in an attempt to keep himself sound. It may be that when you had his front shoes removed, he dropped onto the forehand to protect himself from the soreness, and so is pushing himself along in a slightly altered gait.

If you could try and eliminate any sugars in his diet by using Fast Fibre (8 DEmg/kg, 2.5% Sugar, 26% Fibre) or Calm&Condition (12.5DE mg/kg, 5% Sugar, 14% Fibre) and treat for thrush, and see how he goes....

As I said, I don't know a huge amount, so I may be talking out of my backside, but that is the sort of thing I would be looking at.... x
 
Hi yes he went into hospital mid September and moved yards straight from hospital. Shoes removed at start of month. I added kwikbeet to his current feed about 3 weeks ago. He need to be on a high calorie feed as he is a very poor doer. I have found pure condition works quite well for him and calm and condition is higher in starch so not ideal plus he has been on it before and he didn't flourish. I hope his diet is okay as I don't know how I can alter it without him loosing weight which I don't want!
 
Ahhh so the kwick beet has been added..... that will also explain the change, as he has gone from 13% DE mg/kg and 5% Sugar p/kg to 26.2% DEmg/kg and 10% sugar.... Does Fast Fibre suit him? As an alternative to the Kwick Beet?
Also, has he been tested for Cushings? Often the 1st sign of it is footiness. x
 
My fear would be that this is being caused by the SI issues. Interestingly, the quality and width of my horse's frogs also deteriorated, and he suffered from cracked heels that disappeared a few weeks after his back was operated on and have not yet reappeared. I've no idea if it's all connected, but it's very coincidental if not.
 
cptrayes said:
My fear would be that this is being caused by the SI issues. Interestingly, the quality and width of my horse's frogs also deteriorated, and he suffered from cracked heels that disappeared a few weeks after his back was operated on and have not yet reappeared. I've no idea if it's all connected, but it's very coincidental if not.
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That is really interesting Cpt..... would that be because of him scrunching (for want of a better word in my befuddled brain!) up and holding himself, therefore not landing heal first? x
 
Thing is he has always toe dragged and since going barefoot he has improved dramatically and then they seem to have deterioated again. So I don't know if I would consider it down to his potential SI issue. His toe dragging has gotten no worse and no better since investigation started last year.
 
It's just a thought with regards to the sugars/starch etc... but if he is keeping his weight well on what he is on, then maybe a lameness workup and followup on the SI would be the way to go 1st rather than rock the boat?
I only mention cushings as there are more and more young horses being diagnosed with it, and one of the 1st (sometimes only) signs is footiness in a previously sound horse. xx

ETA - Have you had his hocks blocked? Might be worth the price of an xray?
If he is changing feet and going slightly footy, then it can only be one of 3 things - diet/enviroment, pain/discomfort or illness.... I would personally consider a cushings test, and some xrays or thermography of his hocks and SI x
 
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MudMudGloriousMud said:
That is really interesting Cpt..... would that be because of him scrunching (for want of a better word in my befuddled brain!) up and holding himself, therefore not landing heal first? x
Click to expand...

Yes, I struggled to maintain a heel first landing in his front feet all last winter and the best I really achieved was flat. The back feet went bullnosed and quite probably had reverse rotation of the pedal bones. He had a kissing spines OP three months ago and his whole stance has changed. The most incredible thing is not the better hind heels, great though they are, it's an astonishing straightening of a very bent font leg action.

I do think that the OPs horse's SI issues could be the cause of this bullnosing, which has followed a similar path to my own horse in having been cured once by diet changes and then recurred.
 
Back at beginning of investigation we did flexion test and he was clinically sound and vet said he had very good flexion in his hocks for an ex racer. Vet and physio believe it to be stemming from his SI. How do you test for Cushings?
 
That is fascinating! I don't suppose you have a pic of him stood up before and after do you?
Sorry OP, slight hijack there!

I agree with Cpt, if he has a longstanding question mark over his SI, then it could be that degenerating that is causing the bull nose to come back.

If you think about it, you changed his diet and his footwear, made him feel better inside, so his way of going (even if he still toe dragged) improved and his topline was stronger and more easily held. Now he has been ill, had an op, changed yards and diets, and has lost muscle tone, therefore his SI isn't being 'held' as securely as it was, and is twinging, so he is bull nosing to compensate.

Maybe?
 
I wish I did, but sorry, no pics. I've got vids of the change in the front legs, but not the hooves. Very clear to see though, his whole weight has moved forward over his back feet, and central sulcusses (?) that I was stuffing with sudocrem last winter are now too shallow to bother with.
 
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