HELP!!Horse problems with bolting, behaviourist in Northwest? LONG

[wildriding1]

Anybody out there who can give me ANY advice, it would be greatly received.
I have owned my horse now for 6 years and since he was a yearling. I backed him myself when he was 3 and he was no trouble, he has had absolutely no problems under saddle ever, untill now. It all started just after christmas when a friend of mine was riding him who had ridden him many times before without any issues, this particular time she decided to take her coat off whilst being mounted and without anybody holding him (I know, stupid thing to do) I was putting some trot poles out for her at the time and didn't know what she was doing until too late. She let the arm of her jacket flap down his side and before you know it he went, hell for leather around the arena in a sheer panic until girl came off. He then continued to bolt for about 5 minutes until I could catch him and calm him down. He let me mount him about 10 minutes later, but was so upset and distressed, tried to go again so I got off and before my feet touched the ground he bolted again. Tried to lunge him and get back on whilst he was held, with no such luck, as soon as I came to his left hand side he would bolt off. I put him away and left him until next day. I basically then had to re-back him all over again, being led for about a week, then just doing short hacks and always having somebody hold him and ply him with ginger biscuits when I got on. He came too a bit and started to settle more in the arena, was quite nervous and jumpy for some time though. Then it happened again, this time with a girl who works on yard and has ridden him loads, I was giving her lesson on him, he had been fab for 30 minutes or so when her reins had got caught up in his mane and as she tried to free them he bolted again, panicked himself more until she came off. He wouldn't let me anywhere near him.
Back to square one again. Vowed that nobody else would ever get on him other than me, he must have real trust issues now which is a shame as anybody used to be able to ride him. Took alot longer after that to get him accepting me again and even longer to settle in arena, but managed to do a few ridden shows and some dressage tests, all good.
Today I was in arena practising for dressage this weekend as I have done earlier in week, when I had finished after 30 minutes of good work, I got off in arena, as I often do, must have just touched him with my right leg a I swung it over and I mean a very gentle touch, and he bogged off again!Managed to keep hold of him from the ground, took him back to yard to try and re-mount in normal place and absolutely no chance will he let me get anywhere near him. Put him back to bed. I am so upset that this has happened again, I know it's no where near as bad as previous times, but he is so petrified again, he has become a very nervous, frightened horse and now I just don't know what to do. He can be so scared of everything and nothing sometimes (being brushed! he never used to bother about a thing) and othertimes he isn't bothered about anything (helicopters flying low above him and landing next to him other week!!). Don't think it's physical as I would of thought he'd be bad all the time. He's been out recently winning his dressage tests! Just seems to relate all his bad experiences to our arena, which isn't good as I need to work him in there especially for practising tests!
If anyone has any help, advice, thoughts or experiences that they can share with me, I would really appreciate it, thought about a behaviourist/physcologist, but reluctant to try as don't know of any good ones and I know there are alot of bad ones/scammers about. Really really don't want to give up on my boy

Sorry this post has been so long, hope havn't bored you

 

[ldlp111]

aww sorry to hear this, i have a horse very similar who is scared of everything used to be alot quieter, he has no rider at present and is looking for new home. not really sure what to say other than chin up.

 

[canteron]

Poor you, here are some random thoughts, which may or may not be of any use ......

If you really think is related to Arena (assuming it is fenced) they you could let him loose in there for a bit every day and feed him in there.

The other think is when schooling in there feed the odd polo from the top of the horse (I got that trick from the H&H Anna Ross Davies(?) article) it helps make the schooling a happy issue.

Or, if you think he has lost confidence then don't ride him in there for a bit but do obstacle courses (over tarpauline, under clothes lines, whatever you can dream up), to help him start thinking rather than just panicing.

I am sure that you have done the physio/back thing and had him well checked out?

But most of all, poor you, it is so dispiriting when something like that happens when you have a horse you have built up such a good bond with. Fingers crossed it resolves as quickly as it happened.

 

[ladyt25]

Sounds like the jacket thing has really freaked him out and was maybe something he's just never expereinced before. He is still young so I think with some time and determination you will be able to overcome it.

We had a welsh cob who you could never do anything like take a jacket off whilst on him or indeed have anyone pass you antthing whilst you were on him. I also saw a horse at an event recently who must have been the same as the girl was taking her jacket off in the warm up but she had her mum holding the horse and the removing jacket procedure was taking an extremely long time with them constantly reassuring him. So it is not an isolated problem and it does sound like this once instance has set him off. If he wasn't like it before and you don't think is pain associated I think you have a good chance of working through it.

Maybe try some desensitisation for example with you and a helper touching him in this 'sensitive spot' from the ground. Use something he is comfortable with to start with maybe a brush and be close to him as if normal grooming but then try it from further away (ie attached it to a stick or something) and stroke him from a distance. Persistance and calmness is the key.

It will take time, it sounds quite similar to the problem some racehorses have with going in stalls/narrow places etc as they don't like the sides touching them. There is a lady in Yorkshire who uses Monty Roberts techniques i think - she was on CH5's programme a while back helping horses with similar problems and she seemed quite good. can't fr the lfie of me remember her name though (googled it - is it Sarah Kreutzer maybe?) That or Richard Maxwell, he's supposed to be very good.

Def don't despair, I really think this problem will be solvable.

 

[cluedo]

I had a young horse with the same problem. I would see a professional behaviourist and personally would recommend Michael Peace or a very good healer/communicator is Adam Shereston (amazing man). You need to get to the bottom of this before he hurts either himself or you or both!

 

[annret]

Sounds odd, but is his bit hanging too low in his mouth? It may be that it clanks him if he throws his head up in the air through fear. I found this on my girl last summer when a cheap bridle had stretched a huge amount, hence I mention it.

I do think it's time to see a behaviouralist - if there's a physical problem underlying it, they may be able to point you in the right direction. Without knowing your horse, it's difficult to say if he'd benefit from a couple of months turned away to get rid of the demons in his head so that when he comes back in, he's ready to do his job & willing to work.

Agree with desensitisation, but don't overface him with the challenges...

I really, really feel for you. What a shame for the poor boy.

 

[wildriding1]

He regulary gets turned out in the school and given haynet, quite unsettled at first, soon after his traumas, but then settles after a few times out. He's entire and we have a field on the otherside of an embankment where we turnout in, so he does often nosy at whoever is in there and that does sometimes take his mind off things. Always giving him bits of treats when I am on him, he often just stops and turns his head to look for treats whilst we are out on hacks or if we halt in school!!
All his tack fits fine, nothing has altered, he never throws his head, or evades a contact, he generally works really well, hence me being so upset that we keep getting these set backs.
Thought about giving him few month off work, but worried that he will be 100 x worse when he comes back into work. If it is phsycological, whih I am certain it is, then I would of thought that consistancy with him is vital???

 

[Booboos]

Sorry to hear about your boy but I also agree you can overcome this!

A good magnesium supplement may help, many are designed to help horses overcome exactly this kind of problem. There is a theory that as young animals go through growth spurts they become deficient in certain key nutrients like magnesium and this affects the ability of the nervous system to cope with things, so I would definately give this a try.

As others have said the key is desensitization. You want to reward good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour so you can re-associate scary things like flapping jackets with something good like food. In hand work, little and often, not putting too much pressure on him to accept scary things but taking it slow and gradual should do the trick.

Good luck!

 

[Flame_]

http://www.jrpequestrianservices.co.uk/

He can ride my horse who bolts. Ring him for a chat, he's bl00dy good.

 

[wildriding1]

He has been on Tempralax on and off for a while now.
Don't want anybody else on him, he obviously has major issues with trusting other people on him now as he hasn't bolted whilst I've been on him (yet!), only as I've got off and caught him with my leg.
It's not an issue of 'staying on' its more about trying to help him overcome his fear(s) in the best possible way!
Will try the de-sensitizing, might try some join-up aswell?? Anybody any good books/websites they can recommend?
Thanks guys x

 

[JanetGeorge]

Hope I won't offend, but this sounds to me like an issue that stems from his backing. I breed - and we back a lot of our youngsters - as well as backing for other people. Backing our own is by far the easier as we've brought them up to be scared of nothing.

Far too many people make too many allowances for 'fear' in a young horse - they try to avoid it. Our approach tends to be: "That's life, live with it!" from literally their first day.

EVERY horse - instinctively - has an innate fear of 'the predator' on their backs. We see it in baby foals - a day old - when we lead them to the field for the first time. With a tea towel around the neck and a hand under the tail they walk quietly. Take the hand from behind the tail and place it on the saddle area and they buck like stink!! Or try to run! If you hang onto the runners, then they buck! Most give up in a few days and at that point, an important lesson has been learnt! We carry on that way with everything. We pick up their feet and hold them up (while they're still small enough to make it easy!) We take them into the wash box and hose them - if they kick and run around, we keep hosing them until they stop and accept it. NOTHING stops ust because the youngster doesn't like it!! They're never 'hurt' - or punished - we just keep on with what we want to do.

When you backed your horse, I suspect you did it quietly and carefully - and he already knew and trusted you so tolerated it all. But he never really TOTALLY got over that 'predator on back' issue. That innate fear surfaced when your friend tried to take her jacket off and the 'predator' sudddenly became bigger, different, more frightening!

He's never learnt that being frightened is counter-productive!

When you backed him, did he buck or run with you? Did you have someone leading him initially while he became accustomed to you?

We LIKE a horse to 'run' (we put the rider on with the horse on lunge and LET them run -they outrun that fear of the predator and realise it won't hurt!) If they don't run, we encourage them to move off quite fast (the rider doing nothing - just hanging onto a neck strap.) Then the rider does a lot more from the saddle while the lunger just holds the lunge rein. But we NEVER 'hold' a breaker to be mounted. He must learn to stand for the rider and that is the very first lesson! Having a holder just divides his worries (and multiplies them!)

The answer to his problem is NOT to creep around him. I don't mean you should shriek and yell - just go back to the start, work through the groundwork and preparation for mounting in a very matter-of-fact way. Repeat every step as many times as it takes. We will jump up and down beside a breaker for 10 minutes - or 20 minutes - both on and off the mounting block until he TOTALLY accepts it. And vault on and off as many times until he stands (without being held!) You just have to repeat it - and repeat it and repeat it until he accepts it totally.

If - when you get on - he runs - let him. Just steer around the arena and let him run until he WANTS to stop - then push him on. Takes nerve - but it's the only way you'll get him over this IMHO. If you don't have the nerve, then feel free to PM me. I have a talented young French rider with nerves of steel who is better than ANYONE I've seen at starting young horses and sorting out serious issues kindly!

 

[wildriding1]

No offence Janet BUT I do not believe this stems from his backing, he has been in ridden work for 6 years without a whisper of problem. I have done the jumping up and down and continually getting on and off him up to 20 times before letting him move on. I agree all these things help, until something in his head sends him into panic again! Im not frightened of him, but if you had seen him bolt you would have to admit that one you could not steer him and two he will not stop until rider is on floor, nothing to do with being a good rider being able to stick on, but he is in sheer panic and would probably go through a fence if rider didn't come off! Interesting reply though with how you start off your youngsters, thanks but don't think the answer is to sit it out.

 

[Brandysnap]

No offence, wildriding1!

BUT...

Janet speaks so much sense.

Have I misunderstood, but are you still jumping up + down 20 times before you get on? Oh eck!

And your lad is an entire (think i read that in small print somewhere?!) Oh bloody eck!

Giving treats? Well i put my head down, hands over my eyes...

Moving on - My old gelding still panics if i don't leap on in 0.1 seconds, after he once moved suddenly (about 12 years ago), + i fell off the other side!!

Want my blunt opinion?

The horse is too good for your current level of riding. Either that, or you've got folk riding him who are wrecking him.

You asked for help, Janet has given sound advice, as i hope i + others have. So may i please suggest that your best way forward is to get a good professional trainer to watch + help you from the ground.

Or you wreck a good horse, or he hurts/kills you. I've seen it, don't want to hear it again.

(With apologies if i've underestimated your riding skills, things get miscontrued on a forum, + i've seen loads of bad riding, which obviously influences my views!)

BS x

PS: Thanks, Janet, i learnt so much from your post - you know your stuff! Wish i knew arf! With much respect, BS x

 

[wildriding1]

Im very sorry Brandysnap BUT who are you to judge me? You don't know me or have any idea of my riding ability, if you had read the post properly you would see that it is not me who has 'wrecked him', I have spent time in trying to reassure him and build his confidence back up again after a fright. I not once replied to Janet saying she doesn't know what she is doing, I merely said I didn't agree that her way would be the best way for my horse. All horses are different and not every horse responds well to the same method of training, I know my horse better than anyone and I know what could help and what wouldn't. If you can't look outside the box, don't join in! I appreciate everybodies advice and help, but I am no fool and I would never be as rude to a stranger as you have been to me.

 

[Brandysnap]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody out there who can give me ANY advice, it would be greatly received.
I have owned my horse now for 6 years and since he was a yearling. I backed him myself when he was 3 and he was no trouble, he has had absolutely no problems under saddle ever, untill now. It all started just after christmas when a friend of mine was riding him who had ridden him many times before without any issues, this particular time she decided to take her coat off whilst being mounted and without anybody holding him (I know, stupid thing to do) I was putting some trot poles out for her at the time and didn't know what she was doing until too late. She let the arm of her jacket flap down his side and before you know it he went, hell for leather around the arena in a sheer panic until girl came off. He then continued to bolt for about 5 minutes until I could catch him and calm him down. He let me mount him about 10 minutes later, but was so upset and distressed, tried to go again so I got off and before my feet touched the ground he bolted again. Tried to lunge him and get back on whilst he was held, with no such luck, as soon as I came to his left hand side he would bolt off. I put him away and left him until next day. I basically then had to re-back him all over again, being led for about a week, then just doing short hacks and always having somebody hold him and ply him with ginger biscuits when I got on. He came too a bit and started to settle more in the arena, was quite nervous and jumpy for some time though. Then it happened again, this time with a girl who works on yard and has ridden him loads, I was giving her lesson on him, he had been fab for 30 minutes or so when her reins had got caught up in his mane and as she tried to free them he bolted again, panicked himself more until she came off. He wouldn't let me anywhere near him.
Back to square one again. Vowed that nobody else would ever get on him other than me, he must have real trust issues now which is a shame as anybody used to be able to ride him. Took alot longer after that to get him accepting me again and even longer to settle in arena, but managed to do a few ridden shows and some dressage tests, all good.
Today I was in arena practising for dressage this weekend as I have done earlier in week, when I had finished after 30 minutes of good work, I got off in arena, as I often do, must have just touched him with my right leg a I swung it over and I mean a very gentle touch, and he bogged off again!Managed to keep hold of him from the ground, took him back to yard to try and re-mount in normal place and absolutely no chance will he let me get anywhere near him. Put him back to bed. I am so upset that this has happened again, I know it's no where near as bad as previous times, but he is so petrified again, he has become a very nervous, frightened horse and now I just don't know what to do. He can be so scared of everything and nothing sometimes (being brushed! he never used to bother about a thing) and othertimes he isn't bothered about anything (helicopters flying low above him and landing next to him other week!!). Don't think it's physical as I would of thought he'd be bad all the time. He's been out recently winning his dressage tests! Just seems to relate all his bad experiences to our arena, which isn't good as I need to work him in there especially for practising tests!
If anyone has any help, advice, thoughts or experiences that they can share with me, I would really appreciate it, thought about a behaviourist/physcologist, but reluctant to try as don't know of any good ones and I know there are alot of bad ones/scammers about. Really really don't want to give up on my boy

Sorry this post has been so long, hope havn't bored you

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi wildriding,

I'm sorry that my reply offended you, thought you wanted an honest opinion. Apologies that i misunderstood.

May i dare add that i don't think it's a good idea to allow what sounds like novice (but probably very dear + nice) folk to work your horse, if you're aiming at competition.

I also heard, only yesterday, that a 'canine behaviourist' in UK (NW region) charges £350 for a consultation (3 hrs), then £150 for 1 hr follow-ups! Taking pee, or what? No doubt the equine industry will follow (ie, putting a label on old-fashioned horsemanship, + charging the earth)

Why not just chat to your local trainers? You asked for our help, i've given it.

But my main questions to you are:
Why let others ride your horse?
Why ask us when it goes wrong?
Why have a go at me for saying the truth?

But if, as you say, you know your horse better than anyone, well, i repeat my question - why ask us, then? (And on a personal level, why dismiss my professional opinion?)

No matter, seen it all before.

 

[duggan]

If you come on an open and well used forum and ask for ANY advice, you are going to get it. You asked for it after all.
Whatever has gone wrong is not going to be undone the way you are trying, or it would have resolved itself. Now, do I risk getting a slating too by offering an opinion? A right or worng one, but an opinion as you have asked for.

Have you checked his eyes? Perhaps his rear vision isn't 100% and he catches sight of things? The advice you have ignored is all good stuff, and makes horse sense. A 6 year old horse shouldn't have trust issues if he has been backed and taught correctly, a horse should be classed as broken once a rider, any rider, can mount and ride safely. I took one on recently, owner was being controlled and had to cram treats into his chops to be allowed to mount. What poppycock. He had one lesson, and is good as gold now. As I said before, it matters not about the cause, and who caused it. The problem needs fixing, and another idea needs to be tried if you want to move forward. Whether the idea is one you agree with I don't know, you seem quite fixed about what you think will work. Horses have taught me over the years that you have to open your mind to learn and adapt or you're stuffed!
Best of luck with him, the only other thought I have is that maybe a holiday would be beneficial? If he's been broken since 3 and is competing regularly he may be crying out to be a horse for a while.

Incidently, in my experience a horse will 'go through a fence' within the first minute or so of the fear arriving, they don't tend to gallop about lots then decide to injure themselves. So a rider that can stay aboard while horse learns would be a huge plus. Good luck.

 

[wildriding1]

Thanks for all your comments, I seem to have rectified the problem, I have learnt though not to use a forum for advice!! Only because like Brandysnap said, things do get miscontrued and comments can be taken the wrong way when not meant to be given that way. I have taken on board everyones advice and despite what some seem to think, I agree with alot of it and shall be following some of it. Didn't mean to seem ungrateful or pigheaded in any way, thats why often on these forums people get the wrong impression of another due to it being quite inpersonal if you get me! Anyway thanks again everyone and lets put this one to bed!