HELP I need a Banana Stick!!!!

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Festive_Felicitations

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Its Harry the barely handled 3 yr old I bought. I'm stuck and have no idea what to do!
I really think I need a Banana Stick and the 10 CDs as my ponyio doesn't 'wespect me! And I don't want to have to be mean to him.

Background: when we bought him we knew he'd be taught to sort of lead and pick his feet up and nothing else. No sense of personal space etc. I've handled semi-wild 2&3 yr old before and thought I could cope.

After a few minor tussels he is OK in his stable now will sort of move over, step back etc and is getting better daily. However it all goes to pieces once we leave the stable. I can't get him to move away from me, step back out of 'my space' when I'm in his field/leading him/ carrying his breakfast etc.

It all came to a head the other night when we spent 1 hour having a major fight and he managed to reduce me to tears :( (being v.tiered probably didn't help)

His favorite manouver when you are leading him and he decides he wants to go back/the other way is to turn his head away from you aim his shoulder at you put all his weight behind it and just walk atyou. With a single-minded determination that when I ducked behind a convenient telegraph pole he actually walked into it!! At least it surprised him.

Everything I have ever done with youngsters/horses in general is based on the princial that if you apply 'pressure' (ie on the headcollar/push the neck/head/shoulder... or chase them/hit them with a rope/stick they move away not turn and try and bite or come at you as the standard response. I know some horses will bite/kick back but not with the same determination, and without giving any ground after an hour of the same exercise...

The other night he managed to bite me leg twice, and didn't seem at all detered at getting slapped/punched v.hard on the nose in retaliation (infact I had to dodge his). Generally walked all over me and at one point came at me on his hind legs.

In an attempt to get him to move away from me I have tried pushing while clicking and saying move over, jabbing him with my elbow, pointy thumb, a 'blunt' stick, belting him HARD with the end of the lunging rein. At no point did he step away or do anything to evade what I was doing even though I made sure there were lots of 'escape' routes. All in all it wasn't pleasnt time for either of us.

I feel bad becasue 90% of his time with me at the moment is unpleasnt, and while I'm all for telling a horse off when they step out of line I'd like to think some of it is enjoyable... :cool:

It has gotten to the point where I feel I need to go into his field, or if we can make it into the arena (long story but a 5min walk) chase him/hit with the lunging whip (so I'm out of reach of teeth/feet) him till he is scared and develops some repect for me and anything I wave at him. I realise the problem is that he has reached the age of 3 and never been pushed around or made to do anything he doesn't want to and is obviously not too keen on the idea of buckling down and towing the line.

So if anyone has one of the limited edition Banana sticks that were advertised recently, or has any practical advice suggestions I would be extremely greatful.
Slice of alcoholic choccy cake for good ideas, with cream for super-duper ideas.
 
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Seems like you've got enough things to hit him with don't know why you need anything else - yes I am being sarcastic !!!!
 
A none bannana stick solution - put a bridle on for leading so you can bring his head back round when he tries to walk into you.

It would seem that smacking him doesn't seem to have any effect on him. Try making his life difficult whenever he misbehaves - make him turn in small circles, back up etc when he is naughty.
 
I have a welsh like this. I bought him as a just 5 year old out the field, he hadn't done much for the first 5 years of his life and had been gelded at 4 (apparently due to him being plain dangerous as a stallion) and had really just been left in the field to his own devices.

He had zero manners, hitting/shouting/pushing him had no effect at all! He'd go where he'd want, lean on you, stand on your feet on purpose, stand on his hidelegs at you and squash you against the stable wall if you gave him half the chance.

Hes now 13 and alot better BUT still alot more rude than most horses, myself and others have tried everything but nothing seems to improve his manners totally. Luckily he doesn't kick but does like a good nip at you!

We have found that having a monty roberts controller has helped ALOT and also leading in a bridle and lunge rope. With his age i'd try a monty roberts controller and lunge line! I think they do grow out of it too some extent. Also luckily my guy is only 14hh I imagine yours is bigger, which probably doesnt help matters!!!
 
Little Lad was like this, though less on the biting and more on the just doing what he wanted as and when he wanted, irrespective of what any mere human wanted him to do.

I'd take the 'easy' way out and send him to Mickey Gavin :cool::D
 
I think the best thing you could do is turn him out with a very dominate older horse, let him learn his manners the natural way. And do eveything in a bridle, use short sessions say 20mins 3 times a day and not an hour as youngesters tend to get tired so less likely to take in what you teaching them
 
When he tries to lean on you use a sharp stick like a hoof pick, biro, or table fork held against your arm so that it hurts him properly, but don't chase him with it, let him realise that his action is causing the pain.
The leading can be helped by having a person leading from both sides; it seems to get them to understand that they don't HAVE to walk on top of their handler! I've only ever had to do it three times for the horse to catch on.
 
At the risk of identifying myself as EXACTLY the sort of person ridiculed in the referenced thread . . . ;)

On the biting.
The whole "point" of natural horsemanship (which is just good horsemanship but hey ho) is to use how horses communicate with each other, the language they already know, to teach them our rules, yes? So if he goes to bite you react like a dominant horse. LOSE YOUR RAG. For 15 seconds. If he bit a dominant horse it would genuinely make him think it was going to KILL him if he did that again. So immediately and the first time he does it, freak out. Don't stand back and strike out, make yourself HUGE - chest out, on your toes, leaning forward - and JUMP towards him, using all your best Anglo-Saxon language (you might want to warn anyone else around of your plan in advance ;) ) and tell him in no uncertain terms that if he ever, EVER does anything like that to you again, you will cut off his head and feed him to the crows. Do it the first time he even threatens you. You can't expect him to learn the boundaries unless you make them crystal clear so don't let him take a few swipes before you're mad enough to react, go straight to DefCon One. Then within 15 seconds or the INSTANT he backs away/looks frightened, stop. Drop it. Go back to being Nice Person. Don't stroke him or baby him or apologise, just tell him he's good and get on with whatever you were doing. Lower your heart rate, slow your breathing, go back to your normal size and let bygones be bygones. So he knows when he's bad things are going to get very unpleasant but if he backs off, you're cool.

If I'm in a situation where I can't do that or for some reason I don't think it's the best option, the other route is to grab hold of whatever part of the horse is nearest - a hefty chunk of skin on the neck is good, along with the side of the headcollar - look him straight in the eye and repeat the aforementioned warning about crows in as menacing a voice as you can. This is effectively the other "horse" biting back and making sure the message gets home.

I'm not saying you go this way for the occasional cheeky nip or space invasion (although if you watch a herd, horses aren't keen on giving too many chances), but it sounds like you're along way from the horse just being a bit silly.

On the shoulder check. Yeah, that's a brutal one once they learn it. It's one thing I really try to nip in the bud with any horse but it's amazing how many horses have perfected it.

Obviously it's a ground work issue but you have to be able to lead him about until it that is ingrained enough, so some "emergency" ideas . .

I'm not a fan of leading horses in a bridle (not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's not my preference for reasons related to the horse's further ridden career) but it's an option if it works for you, otherwise you need a nose rope or a controller halter of some kind. If you're close to the horse when he does it, hold the rope close to the head, even taking the side of the headcollar, put your arm along the neck and the point of your elbow HARD into the crease of his shoulder, at the same time pushing his head up and using the leverage of your arm to bring his head your way.

Another option is to lead in situations you think might be problematic with your left hand near the head and your right hand on the neck, right in front of the shoulder, ready to take a fold of skin. If he pushes into you, fold over your "handful" of skin, press your knuckles into the crease of his shoulder, bring his nose towards you and PUSH his shoulder away. If you have to stop until he gives in, do it. When he relaxes and gets soft, slowly let him bring his nose straight and soften your grip but if he goes to bog off again, fold him up again. As with the biting, be definite. Being definite about the boundaries is not being mean.

It's not just about what other "doors" are open - he KNOWS the door hard right is open and, if he's lucky, you won't even be attached to him anymore. What you have to do is shut that door. (And then convince him he doesn't need to escape, of course, but you can't do that if he's left already.)

Don't let him make you cry. He sounds a toughy. Horses have personalities and they live in a hierarchical society. Most aren't really looking to be boss so are quite happy to go along to get along, but some have ambition and if you want them to follow you, you have to convince them you're worth listening to. Then, when everyone is following your rules, you can be benevolent in victory. :)

It's important not to take it personally. He doesn't WANT to make you cry. He just doesn't want to do what you say and as far as he's concerned, that's reason enough not to. If you can take the emotion out of it you'll find it easier to be VERY clear on what you want. Good behaviour is health insurance for horses - you're doing him a favour by making him tow the line.

Right, sitting back and waiting for the jokes now . . . :D
 
TJP I'm still hoping that the great and knowlegeable PapaFrita will come to my assistance ;)

Ruth 83 / Muchy Shaving - As he hasn't even been 'mouthed' yet or ever had a bit in his mouth I'm very reluctant to put a bit in, also I agree with TarrSteps sentiments.

Annabel - I should have said I allready use a narrow rope headcollar and long lead rope which I think is as good as a MR Controller.

MrsM - small problem I'm the other side of the globe..... :-/ ;)

TarrSteps - I was hoping you would read! Thanks for the advice, have a large piece of cake & cream ;)
I have tried/ do most of what you suggest and will percerviere, I guess that after 3 weeks of doing the same thing realising that NONE of it appeared to have sunk in or had any impact on his attitude to me and that he was managing to just push me around like a rag doll was very very fustrating.

However Harry is attempting to redeem himself....
It would appear that something sank into his head the other day in our fight as I did nothing with him yesterday apart from a brush as my arms needed to recover. However I took him for a walk this moring and he was ALOT better. Not as bargy and moving over a bit :eek: :) when I asked and only one 1/2 hearted attempt to bite.
So fingers crossed things improve though I suspect we are going to have more major battles in the future.

Thanks again all for you suggestions.
 
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Hi Felicity - have you tried leading in a lunge cavesson, then you have the best point of control by having the line on the end of his nose.

What size is he? My 4 yr old has just gone through this phase and he has no excuse been well handled all his life. I carried a schooling whip and when he tried to invade my space - with shoulder I swapped rope into my left hand, stick in the right and gave him a good hard upward whop with the schooling whip just behind his elbew - and at the same time jerked his head around towards me. Both gave him quite a fright and I only had to do it a few times and he learnt to keep ouot of my space.

The basic parrelli work, moving out of your space, going backwards on command and lowering head when requested are all good exerrcises. To me they don't need to be labelled with a name but are basic horse common sense.

Suggest that you take his feed to the paddock when you go to catch him and leave it outside the gate. Then you will be able to lead him more easily.

One thing I have found with youngsters that works well is a good length of elkethene pipe. If you use it on them it makes more noise than discomfort and if you swing it around it makes a good stay away from my space sound. Mine tried the 'Grandmothers Footsteps' trick on me - creeping up behind me then waving his feet around - all play but no respect. So I waved my front legs at him, added to with a length of noisy pipe.
 
Yes the pipe is a time honoured piece of kit and works better in many situations than a whip. Useful thing to have around.

Tbh, some horses just need more convincing, especially if they're older and tough minded. I don't like fighting with horses but I've had a few of what a friend of mine calls ' Come to Jesus meetings' with tough horses over the years and sometimes it just comes down to convincing then you're tougher and more stubborn than they are. When they let you in you can show them you're smarter and have their best interests at gheartreat
 
I don't like this new mobile interface! >:{

. . . best interests at heart. I think far fewer horses need that sort of wake up call than some people think but the ones that need a short, sharp shock can be hard work (and a bit scary) until they get with the program.

I usually find they're good ones though. :)
 
Sorry, I thought of a few more points (as someone's horse was trying to alternately tap dance on me and smash me into the side of a lorry today :D ) for the record. . .

With a horse that's learned to "shoulder check", if I'm not leading with a nose rope/chain (a chain doesn't have to be severe, in fact I prefer it because the links make it easier to control the exact amount of tension across the nose) for some reason I attach the rope to the left halter ring, rather than underneath the chin. That way, I have leverage to bring the horse's nose around if needed. In order for the horse to push with the neck/shoulder and go right it has to drop the right ear and load the left front foot - pulling under the chin actually encourages this position. Pressure on the left side of the nose (I also tend to snug the headcollar up a bit when I'm leading) encourages the opposite and "closes the door" away from you more effectively, rather like an opening left rein.

Also, if I'm leading such a horse I am SUPER strict about never letting him even start to turn/dip his head right and/or lean into me. If the feet even shuffle my way he gets a FIRM correction back on to the literal straight and narrow. Even if there is a distraction to the right, he has to stay straight (he's got eyes on the side of his head for that sort of observation ;) ) or, if I allow it he can turn his head only WITHOUT moving his shoulder left or pushing against me with his neck. I don't even let the horse "harden" the left side of his neck - if he does we get a little left bend/left ear down and lowered head before we continue. I find horses like this often subtly test to see if the door is open before the walk through it, so you have to be very vigilant and even slam it in their face once or twice.
 
Update - I think some one has stolen Harry and replaced him with some other chesnut 3 yr old!! The last 2 days he has been a polite, well mannered Harry :) :)

Stepping back/way when I shoo him off while mucking out. When leading he is staying at arms length, stopping and not moving towards me, backing up, stepping over when pushed lightly on the shoulder. Only a few semi-playful nips (which were jumped on).

I actually managed to lunge him abit this morning as for the first time he seemed to get the idea that you move AWAY from the big stick not come over and see if you can eat it. And as part of the lunging he started to show the M.Roberts '3 signs of submission' chewing, head down, ears which I will take as acknowledgement that maybe he isn't top dog and I command some respect! :)

So once again thanks for all the suggestions and ideas, reassuring to know I was trying the right stuff even if it didn't seem to be that effective. Something in 'The Big Fight' must have sunk in. Long may it continue!!
 
Yay. Go, you. ;)

I really do find that's the way it goes with horses like they - you almost have to have a real knock down, drag out before they go ' Oooh, you MEAN it!?! Well, okay then.' :) And in fact it seems to come to a head and right at the moment you think it's all just too awful, it all turns around. Darkest before the dawn, as it were.

I look to have that 's discussion
 
Grrr.

. . .that 'discussion' with bolshy horses sooner rather than later now, not by being mean but by setting up a situation where I think they'll do their worst but I have time, space and quiet to do what I have to do safely. Otherwise you'll end up having the fight when you least want it!

I will say very few horses need that sort of treatment and the ones that do often need reminders but, as I said, I found they are often tough, brave horses and once you get them onside they're good fun. :)

Keep us posted!
 
Felicity_09 said:
Update - I think some one has stolen Harry and replaced him with some other chesnut 3 yr old!! The last 2 days he has been a polite, well mannered Harry :) :)

Stepping back/way when I shoo him off while mucking out. When leading he is staying at arms length, stopping and not moving towards me, backing up, stepping over when pushed lightly on the shoulder. Only a few semi-playful nips (which were jumped on).

I actually managed to lunge him abit this morning as for the first time he seemed to get the idea that you move AWAY from the big stick not come over and see if you can eat it. And as part of the lunging he started to show the M.Roberts '3 signs of submission' chewing, head down, ears which I will take as acknowledgement that maybe he isn't top dog and I command some respect! :)

So once again thanks for all the suggestions and ideas, reassuring to know I was trying the right stuff even if it didn't seem to be that effective. Something in 'The Big Fight' must have sunk in. Long may it continue!!
Click to expand...

MAybe he's been online and seen what we've proposed to sort him out.

Glad he's being a good boy now
 
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