Help me get 'outline'

[Laura2408]

I'm struggling with this and could use some advice.

I am trying to get my pony show ready. In other words in a consistant outline when in the ring!

I have been trying to increase his fitness since spring and he seems to be fine with normal work. He hacks, schools and lunges at least 5 times a week. He still has weight to loose though but I'm working on this, I would say he is fat if I am honest but he does not struggle on hacks etc.

The main problem I'm having is that he won't stay in an outline for long enough to build muscle. He will go on the bit for a short time (minutes!) after being schooled for a while but then gets distracted and breaks it. This means he is not building any correct muscles at all as he won't do it for long enough. I don't want to force his head in but I am getting frustrated as nothing is working!
At the moment I do lots of transitions, leg yielding and the odd circle although he is rubbish at these. He does work nicely when forced but he is lazy and avoids it at all costs.

The other problem I have is with the canter. He is absolutely rubbish at it! He knows the transition and always strikes off but when doing so flings his head in the air and hollows. This means he can't canter more than a few strides without falling back into trot. I have tried holding his head down but this didn't work and just caused him to trot faster and faster. He is the same on the lunge, he can't canter a circle without trotting again! He does canter on a hack fine though and will canter for ages, it's a school issue!
He can bend nicely on both reins in walk but struggles in trot and it's an absolute no in canter.

Any advice would be much appreciated. I have had his back/teeth/saddle checked recently and the vet thinks it's a fitness issue.

I do have lessons but can't afford them every week. I also struggle to fit them in around work. My instructor has helped loads but I can't crack this last bit and i loose motivation when schooling alone!

Basically, how do all these show pony producers get their ponies into fantastic outlines all the time??? What is the secret??

 

[catroo]

For a decent producer it's practice, practice, practice. There are no short cuts to achieve a proper results.

Being over weight won't help him and he sounds unbalanced if struggling to circle, that is basic stuff, same as bending. Sounds like you need to start from scratch and perfect the basics, this will take time and patience I'm afraid!

Start in walk, ensure he's responding to your aids and is moving forwards in to a light contact. Bending, circles, leg yield, transitions. This should be in the school and out hacking. A good march up a hill with him working into a contact will help lose waste and build muscle. Once established in walk then move on to trot in the same manner.

 

[JillA]

Walk on all fours on your floor. Now tuck in your chin - if you don't bring your legs further underneath you or hollow your back you will fall on your face. Same for horses - you don't want hollowed back, so they need to engage their hindquarters to counterbalance the loss of weight in front of their ears.
So, circle, serpentine, transition, gentle half halt, shoulder in..................all exercises that engage the hindquarters and get them stepping under more. Just maintain a contact while you are doing that and each time you feel the offer to relax the jaw and drop the head into he vertical position, reward with a slight softening.

 

[Fides]

At the moment I do lots of transitions, leg yielding and the odd circle although he is rubbish at these. He does work nicely when forced but he is lazy and avoids it at all costs.

That is probably where the problem lies. Straight lines aren't going to build up the right muscles. You need plenty of circles and serpentines and even more transitions. Not just transitions between paces but also within. Also try halt trot, trot halt and walk canter, canter walk transitions for engaging the behind.

If you get bogged down with schooling and lose track of what you are doing a good exercise is to ride a circle, do a few strides of straight, ride a circle, a few strides of straight etc.

 

[Clare85]

Try not to concentrate so much on where his head is and think about his hind leg being engaged and him working correctly over his back. Make sure he is going forwards into a consistent contact. Transitions, turns, circles, lateral work to engage him and help build up his balance/fitness. He needs to be able to carry himself, forcing his head in will not help, it takes time and patience to get a horse working correctly. Once he is balanced and engaged, he will find it much easier to tuck his nose in and work correctly across his whole body - an outline is not just about where his nose is, it's about the whole picture.

Also, don't ask too much at once. If he is a little overweight and is struggling with the work, keep it to short bursts and give him time to take in what he is learning. It will.come with time

 

[Laura2408]

Thank you everyone!

I am having a lesson this week so hopefully can get an idea of where I am going wrong on my position.

I will try my best to do more. I am always pushed for time during the week hence 30mins schooling but will try and increase this. I do hack him at least twice a week but he finds it very boring and ends not listening as whatever we are hacking past is more interesting. He sticks his head in the air and snorts rather than actually working! When we hack I usually do mostly walk with the odd trot and canter.

So what sort of excersise plan should I aim for?
Ridden every day or should I give him a few days off?
Should I lunge too or is riding better?

He is quite good at transitions and can do walk to canter and halt to trot when active and forward it's just he can't maintain it particularly canter.

It's a problem in the ring as he looks very lazy and becomes overshadowed by the flashier more forward ponies (rightly so!) but it is getting frustrating. I'm thinking of taking the winter out of competing and just work on him until next spring! All my comments have involved would have won if was more forward and schooled, however I have schooled for hours and hours and it's not working

The best work he has ever done is usually when he is wound up and fresh!

He is rubbish at circling, they are more like squares or motorbike circles. I'm not sure where I am going wrong with these either but there is obviously some problem. I usually ask by holding him with the outside leg and rein and flexing the inside slightly but he just resists. His lunging is also done in squares!

I have not lunged him in a Pessoa as I don't have one but I was thinking of using side reins or a chambon if either of these would be useful??

Thanks again everyone.

 

[JillA]

If he is rubbish at circling I would suggest you are trying for circles smaller than he can manage. Start with 20m circles and only when he is bending on those reduce gradually to 15m then 10m - it isn't easy, it demands suppleness and fitness because apart from the bend, it means his inside hind has to step under and carry the weight each stride. HAs your instructor not given you some guidance on that?
The problem with gadgets is they can cause resistance if he is struggling (but there is no release) or a false outline where his head is in but his back is hollow - much much better to do it right or not at all IMO.

 

[Red-1]

You seem to think that 30 minutes schooling is insufficient? My boy is well schooled (elementary BD) but would rarely work for more them 30 minutes on the school unless on a lesson. I would have a plan, such as 10 minutes of warm-up where the rein is fairly long and relaxed but there is a soft contact, and have the horse working forward by the end of this (quick transitions, and a canter).

I then have a break, and based on the warm-up decide what I would like to work on, and spend some time working on that. Then, I would introduce a linked exercise, have some repetitions, congratulate him and cool off. I prefer to do 30 minutes of work, 10 minutes is warm-up and then cool off with a half hour stroll around the block.

If mine were not fit and I were asking him to do something he finds hard he would run out of the will to work before half an hour were up. I would also echo getting the walk correct, connected and in your hand before moving on. The canter especially is likely to be unsuccessful if the horse is not confident and soft in the walk. I would still canter, but in the warm up phase on a long rein, where the only focus is on moving forwards. As your horse has a problem keeping the canter I would only do half a circle and then make sure it were me asking for the trot, not him breaking. When starting the "work" phase I would come back to walk.

Also I would not underestimate the need for a break. Mine needs frequent breaks to think about what he is doing. I tend to stop, have 30 seconds on a loose rein, and then pick up again. It breaks his work into easily understood chapters (the exercises) and paragraphs (the mini breaks) and sentences (working the exercises together) and words (the mini releases between cue and response). I also think the horse needs the letters which to me are how you breathe, gold yourself and your focus etc.

 

[HannaST]

Doing some work from the ground might help him. It sounds like he needs to become a lot more supple and balanced so that he can tackle his circles.
If you can find a good book on ground work or long reining that would be best, but essentially, you can walk next to him instead of sitting on top, using the inside rein to ask him to flex to the inside on a circle (big to start with). Make sure he moves forward and keep a contact on the outside rein too. Once he understands you can ask him (with a dressage whip) to move his quarters out, so it becomes a leg yield on a circle. There are lots more things to do and I'm probably not explaining it very well - you can look at Youtube, search for "in-hand dressage", "long-reining" etc and hopefully you will find something sensible!

Good luck! And as mentioned before here, 30 minutes is plenty, as long as it's used well. Don't avoid the circles, keep at it!

 

[Borntobeaprincess]

I would do groundwork, personally I'm a huge fan of long reining over lunging as you can incorporate lateral movements and see how your horse looks like from the ground.
With my youngster I found pole work helped immensely with my canter, I literally started off with asking for canter going over the pole at the corner, which encouraged striking off on the correct lead leg, to building it up over 4 or 5 canter poles in succession.
My youngster loves to jump, so I found putting a few poles and small jumps up not only helped the canter work but got her so much more forward in the canter.

Just now I wouldn't worry about where the head is in canter, just concentrate on getting the horse infront of your leg. Once you have established going forward then add in the other elements.

You always see far too many horses working in a false outline and literally pulling themselves along on the forehand.

I work my horse for the first 15 mins on a very loose rein, aiming for a forward long and low paces, walk trot and canter, then only once warmed up and going forward off my leg as for a bit more bend.

Just take your time and don't expect everything to come together at once

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Instead of saying your horse is 'rubbish' in the canter, take a look at your own riding. Don't mean to sound harsh but Iv inly ever solved my own riding problems by taking a good hard look at how my riding is.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

There is no reason why you can't school whilst hacking, imo your horse needs to be fit enough to work in a school before you transfer your schooling to the arena. Schools aren't really very big and unbalanced horse/ponies tend to panic when asked to work in there. Make sure that you do plenty of purposeful work on your hacks - don't let him just bimble along. You can help to develop suppleness by leg-yielding round puddles/drain-covers etc. Make sure that when you ask for a change of pace, you get it instantly. The more purposeful hacking you do, the thinner he will get.
Give him every opportunity to develop the correct muscles by always feeding from the ground - no hay nets!

If you find it difficult to have a lesson every week, ask your RI for some homework to do between lessons. Can you get someone to video your lesson so that you get a view of what your RI sees?

 

[dressagelove]

Agreed, it's not how long you work them for, it's how effectively they are being asked to work during the time you are on their backs. I only school my chap maybe 4 times a week at the most, and usually for only 25-30 mins. As soon as I have reached my goal I jump off, which can sometime even be 15 mins. I'm not a big believer in hammering them round and round for the sake of it. Correct but intensive work is more beneficial IMO.

 

[Apercrumbie]

A horse who can't do circles isn't balanced, working or listening (barring any physical reason). Work on your circles in walk first. If he can bend to leg yield then he can bend. To encourage bend do lots of leg yielding, spiralling circles and serpentines. Get him forwards with lots of transitions, particularly transitions within the paces, so half halts then asking for a forward trot, back to working, forwards again etc. Unless your school is absolutely tiny, he should be perfectly capable of cantering several circles. This may be an area where your riding isn't helping. What is your instructor telling you to do?

 

[Laura2408]

Thanks again everyone.

He can and does bend in walk and I do manage to get some bending/transitions in when hacking but sometimes he can be silly and I spend the whole time holding him together! I do try my best though and won't be allowing him to amble along any more!

I never claimed to be the worlds best rider and certainly have faults but this particular horse really struggles with canter even without me on him. He can't do much on the lunge and it takes a huge effort to get him to strike off when lunged or free schooled and I've never seen him canter in the field ever.

He can canter but can't maintain it! My school is average riding school sized so plenty of space and there shouldn't be a problem with room for cantering.

I think some of the problem is that I am quite nervous and he is very intelligent which means he knows how to evade work and can do things like buck into the transition which then throws my balance and allows him to evade. I am working on this but it won't happen overnight! My instructor is sure it's because he is not forward enough and hence is taking the mick rather than working properly, although being overweight won't help with this I'm sure. He really is one of the laziest horses I've ever met and spends most of his time asleep on his side or walking around verrry slowly, I don't think it's in his nature to want to work unless it's for food!

 

[JillA]

You are never going to get an outline unless you deal with the lack of impulsion - trust me, I know, my horse is a laid back slowcoach. Teach him to respond instantly to your leg, do more balancing and building up exercises on the lunge and make sure he isn't dragging himself along on his forehand (taking the mick is anthroporphising, Ray Hunt makes it clear "The horse does what he thinks he is expected to or what he needs to do to survive". If he can't because he isn't physically string enough it falls into the latter category).
Over to your instructor for that one - lots and lots of correct and responsive transitions, and persist with the building up the circles, they engage his hind leg which is hard work and he would really rather not but they are gymnastic exercises to work on his physique.

 

[Walrus]

What sort of horse is he? It's taken me about 2.5 years to improve mine from what you're describing: unbalanced, struggles to turn, head rising in transitions, hollow in canter and rushing off. I've got a fab instructor who has made a massive difference and we have lessons maybe once every 2-3 weeks. The key things that made a massive difference with mine where finding the right saddle, finding the right bit (turns out mine hates anything with a joint and much prefers a mullen mouth - who knew!) and finding the right instructor. My instructor said at the beginning that she was aiming to give me a "bank" of exercises that i could use in our schooling so i have a range of things we could try. Early exercises involved circles, spirals - fairly basic things like riding a 20m circle at A, E, A and B then riding a 10m circle at each marker - change the rein and do it again. Or riding "teardrop" shapes and making them smaller - this was riding round the short end of the school and changing the rein on the short diagonal - so, right rein C end of the school change rein MXE, next time turn before M and aim for E, next time turn from C to E making the turn smaller each time. Serpentines, spirals etc. make sure you turn with the outside hand and outside leg not pull the front end round with the inside hand (although this can be open). Then we progressed to different exercises such as leg yield, turn on the forehand etc. More recently we have been doing shoulder in, quarters in, walk to canter - but this has taken us a long time to get to. We also had to go through lots of transitions (and still do). Also, I think his balance has got better with hacking, jumping and generally doing lots of stuff. I lunge once a week - recently bought a pessoa which i think has made a big difference to his canter in a very small number of sessions so that is also something to consider.

 

[BlackVelvet]

Do not overstress about his head being down in an outline, concentrate on getting him working correctly through his back and he will go into a natural balanced working outline. You will know when they are working correctly as the trot feels more 'powerful'

Are you having lessons so an instructor can give you some tips?

I had a big Irish horse who had the most incredible trot and canter when worked correctly and felt like butter in the hands, but would only work like this if he had been for a hack first to loosen up.

 

[enchantedunicorn]

This is my most frustrating subject with my horse - he was so unfit , had been out of work for years! Could absolutely not canter! When riding try and inject alot of impulsion into your horse and have him moving in front of your leg - he should feel more responsive / forward going etc. If you have an instructor, making sure you are consistant with what they have been teaching you to do with your horse in your lessons is important that you are using the same techniques outside your lessons - something I didn't do early enough, which has delayed my horse's developing outline and a good canter.

 

[_GG_]

I would start by getting a physio out. He sounds like a willing horse that is finding it difficult as opposed to an obstinate horse that won't do it.

So...my advice would be physio first...I'd also check his teeth and assess the suitability of his bit and take it from there. Post back when you've checked these, including the saddle fit if he's changed shape a lot and ask again and I'll do my best to give you useful pointers, but it could make things worse, not better to continue when he may be masking some form of discomfort.

xxx

 

[AmyMay]

There is no reason why you can't school whilst hacking, imo your horse needs to be fit enough to work in a school before you transfer your schooling to the arena. Schools aren't really very big and unbalanced horse/ponies tend to panic when asked to work in there. Make sure that you do plenty of purposeful work on your hacks - don't let him just bimble along. You can help to develop suppleness by leg-yielding round puddles/drain-covers etc. Make sure that when you ask for a change of pace, you get it instantly. The more purposeful hacking you do, the thinner he will get.
Give him every opportunity to develop the correct muscles by always feeding from the ground - no hay nets!

If you find it difficult to have a lesson every week, ask your RI for some homework to do between lessons. Can you get someone to video your lesson so that you get a view of what your RI sees?

Brilliant advice.