Help me make sense of this pony please

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lrw0250

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I am fully aware I am going to get some criticism on the back of this question as I will admit I have made mistakes such as not asking more probing questions of the seller or having a vetting but hopefully there will be some lovely HHO members who can help to shed some light on the puzzle that is our new pony. This is the one who ended up being in quarantine for 4 weeks due to strangles blood test showing antibodies and needing scoped. Apologies, this will be a long post!

14.2 bay mare sports pony - age somewhere between 6 and 8 (microchip says one thing, for sale adverts show another!) but not sure as on a replacement passport with no DOB. Advertised back in March by a localish dealer specializing in BS ponies/horses as 7 years old, honest but green so not for a novice, but no vices. Bought for my 12 year old daughter as a 3rd pony to do PC and BS. Saw her being tacked up in stable, ridden by their rider and then my daughter had a really lovely ride on her - dealer explained they had found that the pony likes a rider with light, quiet hands and seat which my daughter does. Dealer explained she had been a trade in from a family buying a more experienced BS pony from them a month before. Checked dealer out on the usual FB pages and reviews all good. Negotiated a reduced price because they wanted a quick sale due to other ponies due to come in and one sale had already fallen through because of the buyer mucking them around and not collecting as agreed.

In the last 2 weeks we have come across the owners who traded her in through social media and made contact with questions as we have had some issues since she was able to come out of quarantine. Boy, have had our eyes opened as to her history!

She was sold to them as a green 6 year old by a dealer who is known locally to be a bit dodgy in Oct 2023. He registered her for the replacement passport but they never changed it to their ownership. Knowing his reputation chances are he has backed her roughly and quickly after getting her from Ireland and may also have tweaked her age - his advert on FB only shows her trotting down a lane and the rider getting off and then remounting while pony looks unhappy with the bit in her mouth. Buyer was a 13 year old girl who had 2 years experience at a riding school with non horsey parents, so a disaster waiting to happen.

Between then and February this year they had a hell of a time with her. On the ground she was bargey, wouldn't tie up without stressing and jumped out of her stable so ended up out 24/7. Ridden, she bucked, leaped around and began rearing. The girl was having monthly lessons but otherwise left to deal with it herself and rather than lose confidence, her social media seems to show her playing up the fact that her naughty pony made her a good rider. She has told my daughter the pony is really sweet and good fun! Apparently they did loads of investigation in to her behaviors including the usual teeth, saddle and back plus vets for x-rays - my vets have requested her records from theirs. A lot is now starting to make sense to us, for example the pony has a bald patch on her face which the dealer told us had been caused by her rubbing her face in the trailer on the 3 hour journey to their yard - I now suspect the dealers have left her tied up for a long period of time to try and cure her and she has rubbed it then. I'm now 99% certain they knew of her issues but I can't prove it.

Knowing what I do now, its interesting to see the ways in which all this is coming out with us as her new owners. My observations and queries are:

  • She is anxious and stressy but weirdly not spooky at all. For example she will be practically shaking and have nervous poos if taken in to the stable block but will happily walk past a massive tractor pulling an irrigation reel behind it without batting an eyelid - is this unusual?
  • She is good to catch and polite to lead but dances and paws if tied up anywhere - better if another horse in view but still not great - I can bring her companion pony along to help with this but would that be creating a bigger problem when we want to separate them?
  • She is really very clever, very sweet and is catching on quickly to the bits of NH style pressure and release I am doing with her - backing up, disengaging quarters with minimal pressure needed etc - I'm happy doing this to build my relationship with her but should I also be letting my daughter to get involved with this as she is going to be the one riding her?

For the moment I am working on the basis that she may well actually be only 5 rising 6 if the original dealer bumped her age up and that shes never been properly handled or broken to ride. Riding has been taken off the table for the moment as we don't have a saddle and were planning to use a Zoe Snape until our fitter is out later this month but I don't want my daughter trying to deal with the pony throwing shapes in it. I've got vet booked to look at her teeth next week and a really good trainer ready to help us once we have ruled out anything pain related.

Other than the questions above I am really only posting to get it all down and off my chest because it's been the most stressful 6 weeks so far between extended quarantine and then finding all this out. Cup of tea and chocolate brownie for anyone who made it to the end!
 
Honestly, I’d say don’t overthink it/the history and deal with what you have now. You bought a reduced price horse that the dealer clearly eluded was over horsing previous jockey and your daughter had a lovely trial ride.

So assuming the horse is not a dangerous lame psychopath (in which case raise a grievance asap), the rest is just heresay and noise
 
I honestly would not worry at this stage.

The pony has been through a lot and sounds like
She’s been passed around a lot and ridden by a hung ho kid. Hopefully some consistency and training will do her the world of good and she’ll be a good pony for your daughter.

Good luck!
 
Regarding the fussy in the stable/tied up, if she's had bad experiences, or just never been taught to stable/tie properly that may well cause her to be stressed in those situations, even if she's not a naturally spooky/anxious horse. You may be able to teach her to accept stabling, or she may always be one that has to be kept out. I certainly would not ask her to stable/tie without another horse nearby until she's much more settled- once she's used to the idea she may come to accept you being there as enough.
As for the rest, I think it's a good idea to take her right back to basics as you are doing, if your daughter is interested in working with her on the ground that will help once she's ready to be ridden as they will both have a bit more of a rapport. Given that she was well behaved under saddle at the viewing, I would be hopeful that once she's settled down she will be a nice, if green, pony for you.
 
My pony can be stressy and anxious but isn't naturally spooky for the first wee while she just couldn't keep her feet still. Tying by herself took a bit of patience buts she's fab now. I usually make sure she has something to munch on to soothe but I know that's not everyone's cup of tea and we just did little and often to build a routine. She may be used to people rushing about her with high energy being on dealers yard etc.
 
I agree with the others - you are doing great.

The poor pony is lucky to have found you. I really hope you and your daughter can work with her, because as said above, with time and patience she could turn out to be a real gem.
She'll take a while ( as in months) to settle, and may well go through a phase of testing boundaries once she finds her feet and get confident, but stick with her and you'll have a real partnership.

I wouldn't rule out the use of a calmer, not simply to make her more handleable, but to reduce her stress levels. She'll be able to learn more if she worries less.
 
It sounds like there’s a basically nice, sweet pony in there waiting to be coaxed out with some consistency and good handling which it sounds like she’s been lacking so far in her life.

If she’s had most of the standard investigations done by previous owners then it could just be a case of green, confused pony getting slightly mixed signals from a Novice rider & dealing with it badly. (It may also be that there’s a problem there somewhere that’s yet to be discovered but if stressy in general it may just be that she doesn’t cope well with less than tactful riding)

You may need to teach her how to tie up sensibly & calmly and how to feel ok about being stabled (& a bit of bribery and some equine company is likely to make these things easier initially) but those are both very doable things and should get better as she settles more. (NGL that the Highland thug never has got the point of not snapping safety ties / headcollars etc if he gets a bit bored tied up… he is totally calm whilst doing this and just fancies sodding off to nearest patch of grass… I also had a Welsh D that would tolerate stabling but never actively LIKED it and if he didn’t like the Feng Shui you’d soon know about it!)
 
Agree with the others. She has had a lot to cope with.

Go back to the start and teach her things. As the "natural horsemanship" people say, if you do not give leadership to a pony, then they will take over themselves. You literally have to show them where to put their feet. Once they can accept this and do it, then they will become calmer.

I know someone who was a Kelly Marks person, and she was called to a bargy, wild pony and she could calm them down in one session. They were happy to be shown how to behave.
 
I would want to know her real age (at least insofar as all the adult teeth are in so she is 5 or over). I have in my field a pony whose passport says she is 3…she’s 2 at most by her teeth and body shape.

5 year olds, if that is what she was last year, can be funky - mares especially so. If you have a ‘turning 6’ pony then she will likely settle and turn into a real gem this year.
 
SpeedyPony said:
Regarding the fussy in the stable/tied up, if she's had bad experiences, or just never been taught to stable/tie properly that may well cause her to be stressed in those situations, even if she's not a naturally spooky/anxious horse. You may be able to teach her to accept stabling, or she may always be one that has to be kept out. I certainly would not ask her to stable/tie without another horse nearby until she's much more settled- once she's used to the idea she may come to accept you being there as enough.
As for the rest, I think it's a good idea to take her right back to basics as you are doing, if your daughter is interested in working with her on the ground that will help once she's ready to be ridden as they will both have a bit more of a rapport. Given that she was well behaved under saddle at the viewing, I would be hopeful that once she's settled down she will be a nice, if green, pony for you.
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Agree. It sounds like all her bad experiences have been around stables / when tied up.
You need to start replacing those with good experiences to build her trust.
 
As above, I too think time and consistency will work wonders. Make stables a lovely place where you feed her, start with short times and make it longer and longer and by winter she ll be comfortable for long time in. Tying up the same thing..tied for short times with haynet and increase. As for ridden work I’d get a really good trainer and have them ride once a week to teach the pony and teach your daughter on the pony once a week. Deep breath and dismiss what you ve been told and work with the pony in front of you…and let us know how you get on.
 
Cragrat said:
I agree with the others - you are doing great.

The poor pony is lucky to have found you. I really hope you and your daughter can work with her, because as said above, with time and patience she could turn out to be a real gem.
She'll take a while ( as in months) to settle, and may well go through a phase of testing boundaries once she finds her feet and get confident, but stick with her and you'll have a real partnership.

I wouldn't rule out the use of a calmer, not simply to make her more handleable, but to reduce her stress levels. She'll be able to learn more if she worries less.
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Thanks. We have already started her on the Premier Performance Premier Calm and are on day 4 of the loading dose. I noticed a bit of a difference last night when we took her in to our indoor school to do some ground work - no nervous pooing and less clingy.
 
Boulty said:
It sounds like there’s a basically nice, sweet pony in there waiting to be coaxed out with some consistency and good handling which it sounds like she’s been lacking so far in her life.

If she’s had most of the standard investigations done by previous owners then it could just be a case of green, confused pony getting slightly mixed signals from a Novice rider & dealing with it badly. (It may also be that there’s a problem there somewhere that’s yet to be discovered but if stressy in general it may just be that she doesn’t cope well with less than tactful riding)

You may need to teach her how to tie up sensibly & calmly and how to feel ok about being stabled (& a bit of bribery and some equine company is likely to make these things easier initially) but those are both very doable things and should get better as she settles more. (NGL that the Highland thug never has got the point of not snapping safety ties / headcollars etc if he gets a bit bored tied up… he is totally calm whilst doing this and just fancies sodding off to nearest patch of grass… I also had a Welsh D that would tolerate stabling but never actively LIKED it and if he didn’t like the Feng Shui you’d soon know about it!)
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That's the impression I get too - she does seem to be a sweetheart so I am hoping that we will get there with her in the end.

When she is tied up, it's not that she is pulling back and trying to get free but she just swings back and forward like a pendulum and paws the ground or her haynet if you give her one. Luckily she is barefoot and we use small holed nets so no chance of her getting caught up in it.
 
Thanks everyone, you have given me a bit more hope this morning.

After our session with her last night I am starting to think she has something going on in her mouth which is causing pain or at least the memory of it. She's much more settled in our indoor school now so last night I though I would see how she would lunge as the girl who had her previously said she was great on the lunge.

I don't have a lunge cavesson that fits her so decided to use her bridle but in the simplest way possible so I took off the noseband and popped in a straight rubber loose ring snaffle rather than the NS starter bit we have been using to practice putting her bridle on while she was on field isolation. In hindsight I think the rubber bit is too thick for her mouth but on the right rein she was OK, kept trying to turn in in walk but managed some decent trot work and a little bit of canter. However she was obviously not comfortable in her mouth, opening it, chomping on the bit, tossing her head around a bit etc. On the left rein, we had the same issue of her turning in when walking but upon asking for trot she managed half a circle before she started plunging and pulling, with the pressure making it worse. She actually tried getting quite aggressive and in my face to make me stop.

She also seems to have a strong flehmen response when eating, not all the time but I have noticed it twice in the last week when having hard feed and once from a pile of hay put on the ground in the field. Some googling this morning has suggested this could be dental or digestive such as ulcers. Feed wise she is already on A&P Soothe & Gain and Dengue UlserLite chaff.

I'm hoping that her dental checkup next week will shed some light. If not then we will ask vets on opinions on a Gastroguard trial vs scoping.

When I figure out how to add photos I will share some because she is a beautiful wee thing.
 
Sounds a bit like mine when she was unsettled re tying up she's never used to pull, she respected being type but was never still. Honestly it just took time. It was easy to rush tacking up as well just to through everything on asap to avoid it but I think that bringing the energy down worked better in the end. My girl is so good to be tied now but it is sometimes a useful barometer if something has upset her ,😅
 
Nearly a month on with this pony and I feel like we go one step forward and two backwards!

Things which have occurred since my last post are:

Teeth - very experienced dental vet did her check up and confirmed he would age her as 7. He thought she had work done in the last 12 months but that whoever had done it had not gone all the way to the back where her last 2 top and bottom where extremely sharp and causing 2 massive ulcers, poor thing. We let those heal and have put her in a Cambridge/Magic snaffle and she is much happier in her mouth.

Feet - her feet were done last week for the first time since we got her and our trimmer was happy they would not be causing any issues.

Vet records - got these and they confirmed that the whole time her previous owners had her she was extremely nervous and was sedated for any vet visits. A month after they got her she started bucking - vet confirmed rain scald which was treated. Then started rearing - x-rayed for kissing spine which was clear but also had 2 wolf teeth removed. Never shown any signs of lameness though.

Behaviour - since her teeth have been done she has not reared or even threatened to once so that is good. Likewise, some Protexin and the calmer seem to have sorted out her nervous poo situation and she is doing it less frequently and is much more solid. We got some nice work in walk, trot and a even some canter as we worked on upwards and downwards transitions the week before last but then the start of last week she came in to season hard when 2 geldings were moved to the neighbouring field. Que refusing to be caught, planting on the walk from the field and refusing to stand still at all. The saddle fitter was out last Friday and she was an absolute cow to him - pulling faces, threatening to bite and lifting her hind leg, particularly whenever he touched her withers which were twitching like crazy. Then yesterday my daughter had an hour long lesson in the new saddle which started off OK but after some canter work that got faster and more unbalanced as it went on she started rodeo bucking until my daughter came off.

Have now got her on chaste tree berries to see if that helps the hormone issues before we go down the Regumate route. Have physio booked for this weekend to see if she can pick up on anything which everyone else has missed.

Our instructor thinks we should see about returning her to the dealer despite the time passed as we have evidence that she is not as advertised backed up by the previous vet record and information from the previous owner. I do still think there is something we are missing and would like to persevere as long as my daughter is happy taking it very slowly. PSSM did cross my mind, as have ulcers given her nervous nature and history....would symptoms such as muscles twitching during grooming/tacking up, difficulty bending on one rein, bucking in canter (not the transition from trot or on straight lines, just on corners/circles) and general anxiety point to either of these in particular?
 
Have you had a physio look at her? If she's unhappy being touched over her back and having difficulty on one rein, I'd be suspicious of some kind of muscular pain/problem. It sounds as though the vet is happy for her to be worked? In which case, I would have a physio out to a)check for soreness and b)suggest some exercises for strength and suppleness.
Whether or not you go back to the dealer will depend on how you feel about her/the hassle of proving she was mis-sold. Was the rain scald noted during her time with the dealer or at the previous owner's? Tbh anyone that continued to ride a horse with rainscald under the saddle sounds pretty novicey and/or callous.
 
SpeedyPony said:
Have you had a physio look at her? If she's unhappy being touched over her back and having difficulty on one rein, I'd be suspicious of some kind of muscular pain/problem. It sounds as though the vet is happy for her to be worked? In which case, I would have a physio out to a)check for soreness and b)suggest some exercises for strength and suppleness.
Whether or not you go back to the dealer will depend on how you feel about her/the hassle of proving she was mis-sold. Was the rain scald noted during her time with the dealer or at the previous owner's? Tbh anyone that continued to ride a horse with rainscald under the saddle sounds pretty novicey and/or callous.
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Physio is out to see her for the first time this Saturday.

The rain scald was with her previous owner who were novices. It was certainly bad enough that she had to be sedated and clipped for it to be treated My gut feeling is that them riding her through that/wolf teeth/sharp teeth is what caused the initial bad behaviours under saddle which have now become learned.
 
The swinging about when tied up and being very unhappy about being touched were 2 symptoms for mine before we knew. She looks kinda new foresty and PSSM was very very common in the breed and still isnt eradicated.

If you can send her back. If that option is no longer available then a PSSM test is pretty cheap to do.
 
You are all a lot more informed about her, anyway!
Did you try a Gastroguard trial? Definitely worth ruling out / treating if necessary for ulcers, and particularly since your vet’s already booked to discuss Regumate (quite a few other possibilities for these issues, too).
Some of described symptoms and her age would make me query PSSM, but equally could have other causes - which you do sound to be slowly checking out. Plus - don’t know how you’d go on with your particular vet if want to test for type 2. Touchy subject with RCVS! (type1 - just send a clutch of hairs off)
If looking at escalating / ongoing veterinary involvement, and particularly at any variant of PSSM, I’d be very inclined to go with the instructor and return the mare before your daughter gets really attached, because that doesn’t often end well.
Full marks for trying, meanwhile!
 
Is she ok for people she knows to fully palpate all over her back, lift up legs etc? Was she better in the old saddle?

I think honestly you can go in two directions at this point. You can decide to keep her regardless, throw the book at finding out what is going on and if nothing veterinary is found, spend the money for someone good to work on behaviour.

Or

Send her back, save your money, time and daughter’s confidence.

Only you can decide which one to do.

Only thing I can really add is that while usually it is vet related, sometimes it isn’t. The people we bought my son’s jumping pony from had a similar experience to you. They did every vet investigation under the sun - and she arrived here spitting fire, angry and dangerous on the ground. We are now two months in, my son is madly in love and she is manageable so long as you accept her preferences. I cannot see how she ever would be happy on a livery yard though - she needs things in her routine you just cannot provide outside of a private setup. Some things are always going to be an issue too: she has saddle trauma for example, so if you even change the colour of the pad she gets suspicious and goes on the attack when you approach.

That said, we were told she jumps, and having got her fit and a saddle she likes, we headed out last weekend to arena hire. Oh my does she jump - and she is so happy doing it! Lit up, bright, ears pricked and confident. We kept them low due to fitness levels but she absolutely flew.

For us, it was worth the work.
 
I'm Dun said:
The swinging about when tied up and being very unhappy about being touched were 2 symptoms for mine before we knew. She looks kinda new foresty and PSSM was very very common in the breed and still isnt eradicated.

If you can send her back. If that option is no longer available then a PSSM test is pretty cheap to do.
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Her clinical history from her old vet actually has her breed down as "Welsh cob X" but who knows what's in the mix!

I honestly think we will struggle to send her back without loosing a wad of money so I am happy to do the hair test for PSSM 1 to rule that out at least.
 
Exasperated said:
You are all a lot more informed about her, anyway!
Did you try a Gastroguard trial? Definitely worth ruling out / treating if necessary for ulcers, and particularly since your vet’s already booked to discuss Regumate (quite a few other possibilities for these issues, too).
Some of described symptoms and her age would make me query PSSM, but equally could have other causes - which you do sound to be slowly checking out. Plus - don’t know how you’d go on with your particular vet if want to test for type 2. Touchy subject with RCVS! (type1 - just send a clutch of hairs off)
If looking at escalating / ongoing veterinary involvement, and particularly at any variant of PSSM, I’d be very inclined to go with the instructor and return the mare before your daughter gets really attached, because that doesn’t often end well.
Full marks for trying, meanwhile!
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Nothing booked to discuss the Regumate but it's on my radar to discuss with the vet after the physio appointment if there is nothing obvious there, as is a Gastroguard trial and a bute trial and potentially an ovary scan given how extreme her discomfort has been the last week.
 
lrw0250 said:
That's the impression I get too - she does seem to be a sweetheart so I am hoping that we will get there with her in the end.

When she is tied up, it's not that she is pulling back and trying to get free but she just swings back and forward like a pendulum and paws the ground or her haynet if you give her one. Luckily she is barefoot and we use small holed nets so no chance of her getting caught up in it.
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Can you cross tie her to start? Do little tiny sessions of like a min each time, very gradually making them longer. Consider a lick or some other high value treat for while she's tied, and gradually start reducing that too.

My lad wasn't great at tying and that, coupled with making him work* when he was being a knob, really helped.

(*I had him on a lunge line in the school and if he started messing about would unclip and send him off to do a few circles. He's not stressy though!)
 
lrw0250 said:
Her clinical history from her old vet actually has her breed down as "Welsh cob X" but who knows what's in the mix!

I honestly think we will struggle to send her back without loosing a wad of money so I am happy to do the hair test for PSSM 1 to rule that out at least.
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Welsh cob x? Yeah, could be - crossed with British sports pony? What you're describing sounds a bit like quirky over dramatic behaviour you can get from some Sec Ds.
My welsh can get stressy but not spooky. And if there's sports pony in there too, they can be sharp.
She could just be a young over-intelligent and stressy welshie who's been passed round a lot and needs you to give her the stability she hasn't had.
 
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