Help me with my crazy horse please

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lucille

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Ok.. not sure where to start

Have owned my horse aprox 9 months now.

15.2 hh 8YO standardbred gelding.

When I got him, he had basically no idea of what ridden work was all about. Granted he would let you sit on his back whilst he wandered about, but as for bend, ballence, cantering , jumping he was clueless

Been a pacer I had dificulties getting his canter, but I soon found out he had a passion for jumping. Amongst other things I used his jumping to encourage the canter (finding that he would often land after a jump in a perfect canter)

He improved imense-ly in a very short space of time.

It wasnt easy, and we encountered problems along the way. For a short time he would do nothing but rear, but a dentists visit, and removal of a rotten tooth solved that instantly.

Things got better and better, he was so willing to learn, and genuinley enjoyed his job

Winning our first ever hunter trial( put him straight in at intermediate level), going clear round 2 others (including one at open level) 6th in his first ever dressage test (judge didnt even pick up any problems with the canter, which for a standardbred pacer is pretty amazing) and we also came 3rd in our first showjumping competition.

A promising start to his career....I dont see what your problem is, I can almost hear you thinking.

But over the past month his behaivoir has slowly gotten worse.

The rearing has started up again, he has also learnet how to buck, and has even impressed many onlookers by performing spanish riding school movements almost foot perfect.

Very impressive to look at, but also very confusing, and dis heartening, that I now cannot sit on this horse, even just to walk once around the arena without going airbourne.

I am not going to give up on this horse, and I am fully aware of how dangerous this behaivoir makes him, but I am 100% sure that there is some sort of problem, rather than it just been a case of him "taking his bat and ball home"

Below are 2 video's to demonstrate this extreme behaivoir

I know my riding isnt perfect, but I doubt its anything to do with that, seen as he has performed perfectly well for me for 8 months prior to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wkRHeYU6go (starts from 1 minute)

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMYZAzzZ_fU



Granted, its spring, everythings on its toes a bit, but this is more than just your average jolly horse.

* We have had the dentist back - no problems there

* His M2M saddle has been re-checked - again no problem

* We buted him for a week on vets instructions to discount "most mechanical problems" to use the vets exact wording - his behaivoir was the same

*He has been seen by a back person / physio who loosened a few tight muscles but said there was "no cause for concern"

* I have (stupidly) ridden him both bareback, and just in a headcollar to discount any problems with tack that the saddle person / dentist didnt find - he was no differant

* He throws the odd buck in when been lunged in tack, but nothing compared to the performance he puts in with me on board

* I have ridden him in several differant paddocks / menage to see if he was just napping / objecting to work - there was no pattern

* Nothing in his routine has changed, at all. (either work wise, or feed/ turnout etc etc)

* A few people have suggested sitting someone else on, but I dont want to do this, incase he injures them.

*On one of the video's you can see he is rearing / pouncing infront of jumps, but this has no bearing on the situation. He rears etc wether theres jumps there or not.... he's even done it out hacking down the tracks

*A few people have mentioned "giving it a good beating" or "pulling it over" but I will just state now, this is not something I am willing to try

*He has a varied routine, jumped once a week, schooled twice, 3 days of hacking and a day off, so I very much doubt he has "just got bored of doing the same thing" Obviously now this has started I no longer take him out on the roads or try jump him

I know every bit of evidence is pointing at him tantruming/ been nasty / bad, but I know the horse and I am 99.9% sure that this is not the case

He has had over a week off now, and i dont intend to try getting back on untill we have some sort of explination or reason as I obv dont want to cause more damage. He is having the physio back on saturday just to check he hasnt put something out/ caused himself a problem with all this ridiculous behaivoir

Sooo, basically with all that stuff discounted, and every logical route explored, I guess this is clutching at straws a bit, but just wondered if anyone has had a similar sort of thing, or had any suggestions. As I truely dont know which route to go down next, so anything is worth a try before I finally give in and turn him away for 6 months

Thanks for taking the time to read all of the above, it did get kind of lengthy :S xx
 
hmm dunno what to say, hasnt done much until you had him hav u done alot with him? looks like knapping in arena in one part due to him coming away from gate then he starts being naughty. hav you tried riding with another horse in arena?
 
Ok, I think firstly you need to rule out pain- 1 weeks bute is not giving you a definite answer.
To me he looks bi-laterally lame behind and this is where I'd start- get his suspensorys scanned, his hocks x-rayed and if that throws up nothing (and he's insured) get him referred for a scan.
To me it looks like classical hind limb pain
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I think firstly you need to rule out pain- 1 weeks bute is not giving you a definite answer.
To me he looks bi-laterally lame behind and this is where I'd start- get his suspensorys scanned, his hocks x-rayed and if that throws up nothing (and he's insured) get him referred for a scan.
To me it looks like classical hind limb pain

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, that looks like the next option then if the physio dosent find anything on Sat

Its sooo hard to tell if he is genuinley in pain / lame , or if his legs are just a bit stiff / off looking, with him been a pacer, and him having to learn the standard gaits

but as you said, definatley worth having the xrays etc for piece of mind.

Im always a bit reluctant to go to vets about something stemming from bad behaivoir , as a mare we had years ago left us with nothing but a £2500 bill and a piece of paper stating "Behavoiral issues" which of course the insurence dont cover.

But I think if the physio dosent bring anything up, it would be the only remaining option xx
 

I just looked at half of the video and I think he looks to have some sort of hind leg pain. He looks quite stiff & sore & not willing to go forward.

I would get a very good vet to do a full work up on him.
 
If this is new behaviour, which it is according to the history, this is usually pain related, the only problem is finding WHERE the problem is.

I would also stop all hard feed and see if that makes any difference.

One PC pony started bucking, to the mystification of its owners, it even turned up in a "problem horse" clinic. To the onlookers it was obvious that the pony was lame in a hindleg.

I don't know where you are in the country, but there is a well respected healer in Worcestershirre/Herefordshire who can do a "scan" of a horse to locate problems, and treat them. He is sometimes used by the local vets if they are stumped. Treatment is quite long, so it ends up expensive, but I've heard of several horses that have been in "last chance saloon" that have been helped/cured/returned to fitness by him.
 
maybe you should go down the route of having x-rays to eliminate problems like kissing spine that can cause reactions like that in severe cases. either that or he is being a naughty little [****]! once he has done it once and got his own way he will do it again.
 
I completely understand your worries re money/vets bills, but this (and sorry to sound patronising Im sort of talking to myself here) is the chance you take with horses and can happen to the best of us.
Regardless of whether the physio finds something or not on sat you should go for the aforementioned scans and xrays. Your life is more important than what may be a hefty few vets bills. Good luck and please keep us posted.
 
I can't look at the vidoes at work but I was wondering if he has irational behviour probs when not being worked? Eg mad bronc fits in the field? Any inexplicable behaviour any other time not associated with work? Does the behaviour seem similar to when the rotten tooth was an issue? Horses don't just wake up one day and decide they no longer wish to be ridden for no reason!
 
Firstly definately nothing to do with your riding, nothing there that should cause such an adverse reaction.

When I first watched I thougt OMG that could be our horse. We bought one in August to event who has a massive dislike for XC and early on there were a few signs in the arena when performing new movements and one in the Jump field which we put down to him being unsettled by my daughter who was learning to deal with a horses stride after coming off ponies. Anyhow he got worse and worse she learned to deal with his issues in the arena and the jump paddock and they no longer occur however the XC is a different story he tries to go backwards, forwards, rears, bucks caprioles you name it he has the trick. Should mention we have had everything checked to and all is reported back as fine, took him back to the eventer we bought him from as I think he thought it was daughter who could not cope but he was impressed with her and decided Horse just has a tantrum, he said he has never seen anything like it before. Horse was as usual as good as gold until we got to the XC, this is not a nappy thing he will happily leave all his mates, have his mates leave him, go out the start box and he plays up as often turning towards home as he does going away from it. He was very bad on the XC in the end he asked my daughter to get off and stuck one of his jockeys on so he could chase naughty boy with a lunge whip until he would go forward, in the end he just softened and gave in. It is extremely frightening especially as daughter only 14 but the noticeble difference between yours and mine is that mine will ride through it, it is temper tantrum your boy does not and does not look comfortable I would investigate further with Physio and vets before doing anything at all with him, or even if you manage to fix what's hurting it may well become learned behaviour.

Good luck and you make sure you look after yourself!
 
I'm in agreement with BN and MF i think he isn't right behind and looks lame at times. His behaviour suggests hind limb lameness. trot him up and check things like :-

is he holding is tail at an angle or to one side

is he tracking up - it some of the shots and it was hard to see it looks as tho he isn't tracking up properly on his off hind

is he straight in his movement

what are his feet like - does he have and uneven wear pattern - are his feet balanced?

Sorry if i sound like a know it all but i've been there with one like this and it took me a long time to figure it out - even longer for the vet who wouldn't listen to me!
 
Firstly , I wouldn't be getting back on him until you've had his legs scanned/xrayed . His movement behind isn't nice . Sol used to have 'steps' like his and she now has confirmed problems .

I wouldn't even wait until the physio to come out , I'd just get straight onto the vet ...

Hope things work out ok
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Im agreeing with you all in that he hasnt just decided one day "Im going to be a first class arse"

but like someone said, Its easy to say "there is a reason" but finding the reason is not so easy.

He behaves perfectly on the ground/ in his stable / field, I would seriously trust him with a 5 year old child. He is one of the most genuine and kind natured, well mannered horses you will ever meet

Another reason why i am so sure his problem is not behavoiral
 
just wanted to add that most problems are solveable - it wasn't to be for my boy tho and he now lives life as a very expensive field ornament with a nice lady as her pet.
 
and CM, yes the behaivor is similar to when he had the bad tooth

and he is perfect in all other manors, and even on the lunge, in full tack, with no rider on
 
Hmm, can't really play the video as it is just going in fits and stars on this computer but can see the extent of his 'misbehaviour'!
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Have you had the same saddle fitter and physio each time? My first thought would be the fact that you have only had him 9mths and have been doing different work with him than he would have done prior to you having him - is it possible he has changed shape and debeloped muscle a bit and the saddle that previously may have fitted him fine could in fact now be pinching him somewhere?

I can't comment on the lameness as the video is not running smoothly on my machine so it's jerky anyway but I have a pony who is almost trotter like and has an odd hind limb action, always has and I've had him 15 years and he is not lame, he just has a strange action. So, it may be he is not actually lame it is just the way he moves. OR alternatively he moves in this way BECAUSE he is in pain somewhere higher uo.

I think really, if the saddler fitter, physio and vet have so far reached a dead end, your solution may be have x-rays done to rule out or confirm any physical discomfort.

It could of course be that he has been out of work before you got him (was he ridden before?) and is having his tantrum moment now as he's not had any 'turn away' time to sort his head out - as say a 4 yo newely broken in horse would (although his reactiosn seem rather OTT) OR he could be like this EVERY spring time but you wouldn't know cos you didn't have him this time last year!
 
Can I just say thanks to everyone for replying. Some lengthy replies, which I have skim read , but I intend to make notes later, and after the physio has been saturday, if nothing comes of it. I will ring the vet, and explain your suggestions, and see if they would be happy to go down those routes. (why is it my pockets are already feeling much lighter)

But yeah, im aware i arnet really a regular member on here, and I thought it was nice that so many people jumped straight in willing to help

Thanks guys
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You all talk sense, unlike alot of other people.

I find it AMAZING how many people say "If I was on it i'd ......." but run a mile when I offer them a go

wink.gif
typical
 
Its very hard to tell by looking at the video's but he doesnt seem to have alot of rein - is he any better on a longer rein? With short reins and alot of leg the horse has nowhere to go but up (obvoiusly you may have tried this and are keeping your rein short so he doesnt get his head down to buck but maybe its worth a try?)

Seems to me maybe another teeth/mouth issue? Does he have a low pallet as the nutcracker action of a snaffle/single jointed bit can really hurt alot of horses, a bit with two joints or a straight bar might be wortha try.

Good luck anyway - hope you find a solution
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[ QUOTE ]
Its very hard to tell by looking at the video's but he doesnt seem to have alot of rein - is he any better on a longer rein? With short reins and alot of leg the horse has nowhere to go but up (obvoiusly you may have tried this and are keeping your rein short so he doesnt get his head down to buck but maybe its worth a try?)

Seems to me maybe another teeth/mouth issue? Does he have a low pallet as the nutcracker action of a snaffle/single jointed bit can really hurt alot of horses, a bit with two joints or a straight bar might be wortha try.

Good luck anyway - hope you find a solution
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A friend suggested teeth / mouth so stupidly I got on him in a headcollar

Had a bit of a bronko session, and then dismounted

Horse looked extremley pleased with himself, I looked white as a ghost, and friend concluded "nothing to do with your bridle then "

LOL

Iv also tried riding on a loose rein, and yes, he just bucks
 
It's clear from the vids that the horse is not sound around his back/pelvis area which you obviously are aware off...or some kind of problem there about, pardon me for asking this (I don't mean this in a funny way so please don't take it the wrong way) but why were you riding/jumping him at the time? did you not recognise at the time that something was not right (apart from the behaviour that is) at that time or is it because you were told that there was nothing to be concerned about medically?
Did he get worse with increased work, was there any difference in how he went and his behaviour say for instance if you reduced his work with longer breaks inbetween? was he the same being free schooled/lunged or just when ridden and was there any difference in the type of work you asked of him before he started playing up, say with more school/jump work to how he was if you did less demanding work, simple hacking etc, I'm only asking because I'm interested in seeing if there is a pattern that has developed etc

I do hope you find some answers though and things can be sorted out, must be very frustrating and disheartening at times, keep your chin up in the meantime and yes...well sat!
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At risk of repeating myself, the more I read from you the more I conclude that this is a pain issue, especially given that his last reaction to pain (the tooth) was to rear).

He sounds like a lovely horse - I hope you get to the bottom of this. X
 
I think you need to get a vet out to look at thoses back legss / back end. He looks uncomfortable, even when he goes over the jump he kicks out afterwards as though he is anticpating the pain. I would get a vet to give him a full examination on the lunge etc and follow there advice, get the x-rays done and scans. You can see he has his ears back the whole time. I do not think it is a temper tantrum I think he is in pain. Out of interest how much bute was he on a day when the vet said to put him on it for a week?
 
I agree with the others, it looks like he's sore behind/back legs. Personally I wouldn't bother having the physio out again, I'd get a good vet to do a full lameness work up. Is he insured? Get as much done as you/the insurance can afford.

Hope you get him sorted
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kenzo - The first video was when he was on bute, and I was told to carry on as normal with him, to give him every chance to be differant

and the second video was towards the start of his behaivor when I was trying to simply ride him through it.

---
It is so hard to tell if there is a problem in his hind though, with him been a pacer, he will never have a correct action in the same way other horses do, however i have decided that after saturday, I am going to try have xrays done, just to be sure
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i would get a full soundness work up done and stop riding him
he doesnt look right to me.and riding him obviously isnt helping his issues.
if nerve blocks, xrays etc are clear i would recheck his back,mouth and also check his tack fits.
from his reactions to a pain in his mouth in a pervious episode, i would strongly suspect a pain issue from somewhere is causing this behaviour.
even a week on bute may not touch pain from something as simple as a pinching saddle.
i would also try give him a break from jumping-it could be he is soured from over jumping.
 
i would have just suggested a few equine hopsitals that are very good but they are abit out of your way as there are in the south west
 
It may be something as simple as just doing himself a mischief which has got worse with work...or just not having enough rest since he's put his back out for example, even running around the field like crazy baboon could make it twice as bad as it originally was....so don't get too negative, it may be something that just needs some healing time.

I'd have a good chiropractor out, try a few treatments (depending on what the suggest)and give him a nice long break, obviously if you can have an exray or your vet can do some nerve blocks before the his rest period then it would certainly help narrow things down a little, then access him in say 4 to 6 months time, introduce work back gradually see how you go.

He doesn't look like naughty horse, horses do things for a reason, specially when things were going so well so I doubt he's just change like that if it was pain related and from they way he's moving on the vids but yes I appreciate that his may be misjudged because he was a pacer.

I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it and things will turn out ok in the end, just takes time....and money!
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have you thought about contacting:-

http://www.equine-therapy.org/
 
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