Help needed im at my wits end re liver problems in my 4yr old

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hellywelly1

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hi all

Please please help me
I bought a 4yr old recently and he was under weight but i put that down to just being imported from Ireland and living out and not much tlc.
After having him a few weeks he was putting on weight and dropping it just as quick as it went on.
We asked the vet to check him over and do his teeth as was dropping hard feed.

His normal bloods came back fine yet his liver function showed his enzymes were very high as at 195. Vet says normal for his age/breed/height should be between 1-80 and my boy is double and sum on top of this
The vet sent me some tablets which where herbal and asked me to give him four a day for two weeks and then 2 a day and recheck after four weeks.

The second set of results have come back and no change still 195. he is on a low protein diet as the vet suggested and has now put on weight but no change in liver enzymes.

The vet now wants him to have another 6wks off and then re-test but is unsure what is causing the problems. If no change after the 6wks she want him to travel to york of a liver biopsy which she has told me is very risk and there is a cange he could bleed to death yet I though it was a straight forward op???
He has now started attacking the stable wall with his teeth pic attached and this is something new.
I just don’t under stand how to help my boy and after the loss of my mare this yr due to a trapped nerve after kissing spine treatment i am now scared im going to lose my new friend

Please can some one help or offer any advice?
Thanks
Helen and teddy
 
I am sorry to hear of your problems with your new horse. I am no expert and am in no position to comment on what the vet has said so far.

Ragwort poisoning ? A possibility if he was kept on poor pasture before you got him.If your vet is agreeable would it not be worth trying some of the global herb products. Restore I can recommend as I used it on my horse when he was a bit off. Improved his condition no end. Supposed to help with the liver.They also do one specifically for horses which have been at risk from ragwort poisoning.
I hope you can get some answers soon
 
Milk thistle tincture or global herbs restore may be helpful.
Has the Vet considered liver fluke?
Sorry I can't be more help.
 
Hi Helen!!! It's Kayleigh, how weird that you're on here. I actually posted a post earlier asking if anyone had any advice/experiences that they could tell me, it's in the veterinary section. Someone replied and said that gtt enzymes have a quite a long life and that levels wouldn't have dropped that much over 4 weeks, so that sounds pretty good. Hope you don't mind me posting bout teddy. Just wanted to get enough info as poss. You notices the scrapes on the wall then?? X x
 
Sounds as though the best thing is to either wait a while, and see if the enzymes return to a normal range, or have the biopsy done.
FaldingwoodLivery - I'm sure you're great - but your signature is bloody annoying (and contravenes T & Cs).
S :D
 
yes hun i took pics of walls and im so sorry he has done it not setting a good show for his self is he??
n yes the yard is ace and is a good place to be
i have tried restore and well can say in my view didnt do much but going to give the milk one ago
 
hellywelly1 said:
yes hun i took pics of walls and im so sorry he has done it not setting a good show for his self is he??
n yes the yard is ace and is a good place to be
i have tried restore and well can say in my view didnt do much but going to give the milk one ago
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Don't worry, it's only a few scratches, he's been perfectly well behaved! X
 
Shilasdair said:
Not really.
I hope your hard sell works though - it must be a worry having empty boxes all the time.
S :D
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I dont mean to be funny but this is a post for helpping my boy please can we stick to that?? im really worried about him and dont want to see comments about empty stables.
this yard is really nice and isnt empty. i have a poorly horse they and the lievery is trying to help so please please dont make this harder to deal with by having ago at each other

many thanks
Helen
 
hellywelly1 said:
I dont mean to be funny but this is a post for helpping my boy please can we stick to that?? im really worried about him and dont want to see comments about empty stables.
this yard is really nice and isnt empty. i have a poorly horse they and the lievery is trying to help so please please dont make this harder to deal with by having ago at each other

many thanks
Helen
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Exactly why I chose to ignore that last comment! ;)
 
I'd second the global herbs and poss liver fluke ideas. Don't let your vet tell you that horses don't get liver fluke!! Do a google search and you will find evidence to the contrary! I believe Ireland also has a high incidence in general. Could an ultrasound not be performed on the liver before the seemingly more risky biopsy? Hope horsey is ok.
 
Ahh, my first horse was diagnosed with liver disease at the age of five, it was terrible. He was emaciated, and his skin started to peel of due to light sensitivity :(

It was diagnosed quite late on after a stupid misdiagnosis from another vet, he had to go for a biopsy, it was very simple and quick, and healed in no time, so i'd say go for it, anything to help him get better. After the biopsy he had to go on steroids, and he did start to pick up. He was a very poorly boy by this point though. Unforuneately due to an abnormally massive oedema in his neck busrting, and the condition being so serious, we found him in a terrible state one morning and had to have him put to sleep. :( :(

I'd urge you to get more opinions, talk to people and discuss you future options.

I miss my boy terribly and I'd hate for anyone to have to go through that!

I hope your boy gets better soon!
 
cm2581 said:
I'd second the global herbs and poss liver fluke ideas. Don't let your vet tell you that horses don't get liver fluke!! Do a google search and you will find evidence to the contrary! I believe Ireland also has a high incidence in general. Could an ultrasound not be performed on the liver before the seemingly more risky biopsy? Hope horsey is ok.
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hi thanks for your reply i have asked about ultra sound and didnt recieve a reply. i will ask again and make sure one1 else speaks to her like a horsey friend as well im not getting the answers i need and they may be more assertive(excuse my spelling im dyslexic)
 
SophieLouBee said:
Ahh, my first horse was diagnosed with liver disease at the age of five, it was terrible. He was emaciated, and his skin started to peel of due to light sensitivity :(

It was diagnosed quite late on after a stupid misdiagnosis from another vet, he had to go for a biopsy, it was very simple and quick, and healed in no time, so i'd say go for it, anything to help him get better. After the biopsy he had to go on steroids, and he did start to pick up. He was a very poorly boy by this point though. Unforuneately due to an abnormally massive oedema in his neck busrting, and the condition being so serious, we found him in a terrible state one morning and had to have him put to sleep. :( :(

I'd urge you to get more opinions, talk to people and discuss you future options.

I miss my boy terribly and I'd hate for anyone to have to go through that!

I hope your boy gets better soon!
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his skin is flaking really bad on his neck kinda like dandruff only bigger flakes n vet said that was down to the liver. i just dont get it they are just leaving him to try and sort him self out. im sorry but im a big believer in time waits for no man so making me more worried at her lack of urgency
 
Ah, I completely agree with you on that. My second vet was so good, she tried so hard with my baby!

I'm glad to see the support in your YO's other post, and you are lucky you have her support too!

The first vet that saw him told me it was really bad worms, then after me insisting after no improvment whatsoever, he did some bloods, told me that this was bad news for my boy, and there was nothing more he could do (prehistoric vet and methods)

But I really would agree with the vet on the biopsy, it really does let you know where you stand in terms of what treatment to go with!

xx
 
Right poppet. First off, don't panic. I took on a rescued gipsy cob mare who was about 24 hours away from death. Vets said kindest thing was pts. But we saw that she'd picked up a little just from tlc so we persevered. Local vets were amazing but the best ever advice I had was from Prof Derek Knottenbelt. A world expert in liver damage in horses. He will always, always reply to e-mails from ordinary owners. His e-mail address is Knotty@liverpool.ac.uk - try to write your e-mail carefully sticking just to facts and what your local vets have tried. He can't help if he doesn't have all the info.

Now here's how to support a liver damaged horse while you get to the bottom of what's going on. 1) a low protein diet as you are giving. But all animals need some protein so don't exclude ALL protein, but what protein he IS fed must be the highest quality you can afford. This means less work for the liver. Be careful with the hay/lage you're feeding as it could be very high in protein. 2) Milk Thistle - D&H do a high quality dried tub, specially for horses - don't get human coz you'll never get the dose right. D&H are working closely with the Prof to provide tailored diets to liver damaged horses. 3) Yea Sac - again D&H do a good one. Yea Sac provides pre and pro biotics, essential B vitamins, aids hind gut digestion (usually compromised in liver damaged horses) and acts as a very mild appetite stimulant (liver damaged horses often lose the will to go on). 4) Feed little and often - again, gives the liver less work to do. Top quality nursing, a positive attitude around the horse and oodles of sensible tlc will help too.

The biopsy is (obviously)to find out what is causing the liver damage. The only way to be certain is the biopsy. The problem with any invasive procedure is that one of the liver's jobs is to make sure the blood clots properly. A damaged liver may mean your horse would bleed a lot with the biospy. Ragwort damaged livers cannot regenerate but the liver CAN increase it's capacity to normal again with other forms of disease. The problem with liver damage is it is only normally seen when symptoms appear, usually at the 70% damaged stage. The Prof will tell you that damage at 76% and above is always fatal. You can STILL stabilise a ragwort poisoned horse with 70% liver damage but you have to keep the horse on the same management as above to continue essential support to the liver.

My mare recovered to the point where she has been backed and is living an almost normal life. She has to be stabled out of the summer sun as she is acutely photo sensitive. That's not a problem for your horse at the moment. One thing in my mare's favour was her breed. Hard as nails and never had a second's luxury in her entire 12 years of life. A less tough horse may be harder to help.

Keep a watch for distressing symptoms hun: letheragy, weight loss, depression, no appetite, abdominal bloating, standing in a corner pressing the head against a wall, jaundice and strange neurological problems like self harm and unusual vocalisation. With luck, you can turn your youngster around and have a healthy horse again, but do be aware that you may need to know when to call a halt. E-mail the Prof. Now. He'll tell it like it is. One of the best things he ever said to me was to save my money on more and more tests. He asked me, would you do anything different if a test came back poor? Answer, no. I'd keep on trying until I could see Angel had had enough, and they DO let you know. So we didn't have a bipsoy done and only had blood tests repeated once to see whether the "liver flush" procedure that the vets did had made an improvement. Second results were much improved thank god. Fingers crossed for your boy - do let us know how he gets on xxx
 
SophieLouBee said:
Ah, I completely agree with you on that. My second vet was so good, she tried so hard with my baby!

I'm glad to see the support in your YO's other post, and you are lucky you have her support too!

The first vet that saw him told me it was really bad worms, then after me insisting after no improvment whatsoever, he did some bloods, told me that this was bad news for my boy, and there was nothing more he could do (prehistoric vet and methods)

But I really would agree with the vet on the biopsy, it really does let you know where you stand in terms of what treatment to go with!

xx
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YO seems a star bless her and we have only been there 2 days, they tried saying teddy had worms too, so snap! vet wants to leave biopsy atleast another 6wks to see if a change n told me it was a 'waste of money' well ive decided they send me my perfered vet which is who i requested this time or i take business else were i am the customer and booked a different vet to who came twice already

i think a paddy is coming their way at this rate :mad:
 
box of frogs thanks
i will email the chat you mention
i am going to get the biopsy i think as i really want to know if the % is high as only found out in test i requested as poor weight.
can you shead any light on the scrapping his teeth on the stable wall which started last night?? not sure if he has tried this before as has always been in stone stables. im not think stomach probs eg ulcers as no discomfort or cribbing/sucking just dragging his teeth
 
I echo Box of Frogs and her advice, she is pretty much expert on the subject of liver's. As for the teeth scraping, this sounds very much like a stress response whch could be due to a number of reasons; moving owners/yards, new routine, no defined place within a new herd, lack of turnout, gastric ulcers, pain etc.
My first (urgent) port of call would be to sort his stomach out and put him on Coligone which will act almost immediately to neutralise any acidosis in the gut caused by stress or ulcers and help him to settle more in his new surroundings. Secondly I would sort his head out by ensuring a good routine and turnout and allowing him to be a horse. Thirdly, ensure that he is fed a high fibre/oil diet with no mixes which do not digest in the hind gut as well as nuts.
I do hope you get him sorted, please keep us updated x
 
BoF has covered it very well and i thank her for helping me too:) here is my experience (shamelessly repeated from an earlier post)
* VERY LONG POST ALERT*

Tuesday 11th May this year,my vet came to see Dex for suspected ringworm
SarahsCamera790.jpg


but he wasnt happy with how his coat looked so wanted to do a blood test- i wasnt too fussed at that time but went along with my vets recommendation..
48 hours later, my vet rang back and i was devastated to learn that his Gama Gt should be max 28 and he has 626 Alkaline something isnt 424 its 1012 plus Dehydrated (??) muscle enzymes/protein levels all wrong . This was followed by a further test (GLDH?) done at the lab to establish which bit of the liver is affected. He told me that some parts can be supported through protein balanced diet and supplements but other parts were irretrievable :(

Vet was “VERY concerned why it appears to have deteriated so suddenly” especially as we don’t have ragwort filled fields and he has been mine since 2006.

The plan was to run the liver function test, change diet and add supplements ...

He rang me on the Saturday to say that this test was really not good :( high bile level in his blood indicated 2nd degree liver failure :( so he was on 4 small low protein feeds a day with milk thistle & sugarbeet-unmolassed for hydration and first thing on 17th May- Monday, he had a liver scan and biopsy.The vet wanted the sample in the lab for that afternoon..

So the vet came to scan/biopsy Dex.When i went to get him in i was almost pleased that Dex took one look at me with a headcollar and marched off in the opposite direction He came back when i rattled his bowl :rolleyes:
Put him in the barn with io and Jacob for moral support- picture:
DexioJacobmay10.jpg

io on left, Dex in middle, Jacob on right.

Dex was sedated, Vet clipped a patch high on his offside flank and the girth groove on near side. He ran the ultrasound over him and the near side looked ok. the offside had a ragged edge like it had been hacked with scissors..blood flow was minimal and the whole of that side was brighter than normal indicating a level of fibrosis :(:(
Vet gave him a big jab anaesthetic and OH was a great nurse helping with the biopsy tools Vet made a 1/2" cut and got the worlds biggest needle out- i decided not to watch any further as fainting wouldnt have been helpful :eek: Out of the corner of my eye i could see something that looked like scissor handles and looked away quickly Dex was quietly snoring as the vet was just removing the 3rd core sample- OH nipped out the door and Dex threw up his head and barged out the door, mowing down OH and dragging me with the vet desperately trying to stop him. Thankfully he didnt get very far..the giant needle was carefully removed, a further scan to check it hadnt caused any damage in the excitement ( it hadnt thank God!) so 2 staples were put in and we left him to sleep off the rest. 10 mins later Dex was hammering on the stable door demanding to go out :rolleyes:

Picture of the biopsy site:
http://gallery.me.com/roger.edmunds#100628/IMG_5238&bgcolor=black

Vet said to wait til we get the results back before we blood test the other horses as it will give an idea what to look for. He didnt think it was liver fluke but tested for it anyway..I got results at the end of the week and it showed that Dexter's liver was rallying :) all enzymes were lower and the bile in the blood has significantly decreased- thats the good news...the following day i noticed Dex swelling up in his back legs
SarahsCamera812.jpg


I rang the vet and he said "keep an eye on him, its probably nothing and i will come tomorrow"

tomorrow came, and his front had swollen too:
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Vet took one look and said "******" several times :( "He has something wrong with his heart" and his breathing and heart rate were abnormal too :(

There was nothing to indicate a heart problem in the bloods yet he had ventricular tachycardia.heart beat rate of 50 per minute,temperature is 38.5 C, 28 breaths per minute in the heat decreasing to 38C and 16 breaths at night. . So he went off to the clinic 26th May for an ECG, cardio ultrasound, diretics and find an appropiate drug regime. The vet cannot understand, unless its sheer bad luck, how he could develop a heart and liver problem independantly yet they are there. Dex was 5 stage vetted by Peter Scott Dunn himself in 2006 and his heart was fine then so whatever it is has come on fairly suddenly. Dex was full of himself last time i rode- the day before the vet's first visit and hunts for 3-4 hours, 3 times a fortnight over winter without tiring so is usually very fit.

We got to the clinic, wired him up and Dex's ECG is fast but the wave pattern is normal Ultrasound showed his heart has a touch of scelerosis on the left side but "nothing of clinical significance" so he has a good heart but still doesn't solve the mystery of the swelling :

SarahsCamera802.jpg


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He had a steroid injection- i was freaking out at that as he had bad laminits when i purchased him and it took a long time to nurse him back to health :( He was also put on 50 furesamide tablets a day, this was accompanied by 68 steroid tablets a day AND Heptosyl tablets AND Liver Active liquid supplement plus Kossolian Blood Salts for the dehydration..Thank god he is such a piggy cob and shovelled down his food no matter how many tablets were stirred in :rolleyes:

Within 2 days he looked much better- i had to put factor 50 sunblock on his sores to stop the burning:
SarahsCamera796.jpg


Here he is in August with OH:
RognDex1.jpg


We missed the BSHA championships he had qualified for as a LW cob but the vet said i could bring him back into work and if all ok then he would be allowed to start hunting.

We managed to get 5 days autumn hunting in , missed the opening meet but went upto the central vale Tuesday where he joyfully pulled my arms out for two hours and then complained at being taken home so early :)
RoundhillDex1.jpg


Even carted me over a rather big rail for a 14.3 cob!http://www.evespics.co.uk/2010 even...undhill, Kimblewick 9.11.10/HTML/img_7518.htm

Deepest, heartfelt gratitude to Thames Valley Equine for ALL their outstanding efforts to save his life :D Things will never be normal but they are manageable..
 
Hellywelly - stay alert over the teeth scraping. Watch for standing in corners, pressing head against the wall, self harm, harm to the owner and other odd behavioural and neurological symptoms. It could be that it's just stress as Llwyncwn says but it could also be a symptom of the liver damage. Just for information, end stage liver failure symptoms are very very distressing for horse and owner so stay on guard. Meant to add before - no conditioning mixes or cubes ever - they contain high levels of oil and would be too much work for a struggling liver. Hugs x
 
HellyWelly, glad you are feeing more positive!
DDD, really nice to read your post after my awful experience!

Nice to see that it doesn't have to end badly!

Good luck with the biopsy!!!


x
 
Quick question for box of frogs. Would these end stage symptoms be present all the time or come and go? We've just had the vet out to hellywelly's horse as he had quite a strange episode tonight. He came in from field completely happy, was put in stable fine, ate his tea then out of nowhere started violently throwing himself around with very severe force, his eyes were glazed over too. But by the time the vet got here he'd returned to normal, so she said she doesn't think it was related to his liver problems but we just cannot put it down to anything else!!
 
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