Help needed please *warning* Long

C

Coffee_Bean

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 January 2007
Messages
11,653
Location
In a stable...
www.horseandhound.co.uk
Well, where do i start. Bean has got the looks, potential, conformation, breeding and paces to do well in dressage.....but there is one thing that is stopping us getting anywhere, she won't go in an outline.

Her original bit was a single-jointed, rubber covered, D ring snaffle and that suited her well apart from she refused to go in an outline. Since i have tried her in a french link which has had no effect.

I have ridden her twice in a 3 ring, single jointed dutch gag. Using it on the second ring. And wow, this has an effect, she is very, very head fussy in this bit, throws her head up and down and half rears if you put pressure on her mouth. She is very stubborn, not in pain. When she submits she has a stonker of a head carriage as this bit has lifted her poll high and her nose in. She is fine in canter and keeps this advanced outline well, with pretty much no head tossing, she can manage well in trot but walk there is alot of head tossing and halt if out of the question, she just rears. This tells me she isn't in pain, as she will do it in the more forward paces.

If you ask for an outline in walk then she will toss her head and quite often locks all the muscles in her neck until eventually she submits, taking very short, tense steps. Her neck softens after some schooling and lateral work, currently do leg yield, shoulder in and travers. She does travers particularly well and we are starting some half pass. We don't have a school and 90% of the time we just hack, so we school as we hack.

Another problem is that she refuses to rein back, she hates this on the ground and takes baby steps at a time if she doesn't rear. She usually just rears if someone is on her and asks for it, she rears if you try and load her too.

Please don't tell me that she is in pain, or that she needs to work through more from behind because thats not what she needs. Please help and thank you if you got this far
crazy.gif
smile.gif
 
even thou she isnt in pain she still might need her back done? it will help work out why she wont use her muscles correctly. also try bending exercises on the ground to increase flexability. if that dosent help you could ride her in a chambon or draw reins to make her submit?
only suggestions, will help more if i can!
 
I don't mean to sound cheeky, but what makes you adamant she's not in pain? I'd have her teeth and back checked out by the relevant specialists, and then go from there.

I also don't think you should be attempting half pass before she is soft and supple in her basic paces. She doesn't sound anywhere near ready to be in an 'advanced' outline. Using a bit to pull her into an outline rather than riding her forward and teaching her to balance herself will leave you with huge problems, and I think she sounds as if they are starting already. You need someone on the ground to look and see what's happening, and to work through it with you.

good luck.
 
Sounds like she doesn't like the poll pressure from the three ring & she shakes her head to tell you this culminating in a rear if you don't listen.

What was the reason for putting her in the three ring? Is she strong or is it a schooling aid or what?

& why are you thinking about using draw reins? Have you thought about using a de gogue or chambon on the lunge first?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to sound cheeky, but what makes you adamant she's not in pain? I'd have her teeth and back checked out by the relevant specialists, and then go from there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because she does the same thing on the ground, when loading or rein back. Teeth and back were checked less than 6 months ago and vetting has been done about 4 months ago.
 
Also - how exactly are you asking for an outline? What specific aids are you using?

& how do you know 100% that she isn't in pain - I wouldn't take previous owners word for it TBH, I'd get everything checked over again inc physio & saddle fitter
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like she doesn't like the poll pressure from the three ring & she shakes her head to tell you this culminating in a rear if you don't listen.

What was the reason for putting her in the three ring? Is she strong or is it a schooling aid or what?

& why are you thinking about using draw reins? Have you thought about using a de gogue or chambon on the lunge first?

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't have access to a chambon or de gogue and am skint tbh but have access to draw reins.
Put her in the 3 ring as experimenting what bit she likes and what bit helps with the outline.
She may be objecting to the poll pressure, but when you ask for an outline in a normal snaffle she does the same, and i am confused as to why she is so much worse in walk than in canter, surely it should be the other way round
confused.gif
You could say my confidence as an owner is at an all time low
frown.gif


Oh, and GonetoFrance, she rears when she is under pressure, e.g when she spooks at stuff badly, when asked to do as shes told etc, forgot to put that in last post.
 
I horse thats struggles to rein back can sometimes have a little touch of string halt which might also explain the short,choppy walk?

If this is def not the case then I would work her on the lunge in a pessoa or chambon to encourage her to work over her back- I lunge my horse 3 times per week in this. If using the pessoa get a proper pessoa lunging roller with the selection of rings so as her training progresses you can use the higer rings- I would be taking my time however before moving up a ring and be sure she is 100% settled. I find putting it to the ring between the legs really gets the horse sof over its back and stretching.
A 3 ring gag will pull her into a false outline and not help the horse to really work from behind into a true outline.

Longreining will also help with the walk and the halt but make sure you are not to strong in your hand- she must respond to the voice. You can teach rein back on the longreins with a helper as well.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also - how exactly are you asking for an outline? What specific aids are you using?


[/ QUOTE ]
I know previous owner through a trusted friend, so is why i have taken hers and the vets word.
Tweaking and playing with the reins, and driving her forward with my legs.
 
I'm guessing that she's worse in walk because she doesn't have enough impulsion & that she is dragging her back end a bit. Walk is one of the hardest paces to get a good outline because it is the hardest to get a real good active movement from behind.

I'd seriously lay off the draw reins for the time being until I'd explored more avenues. Have you got an instructor or friend that is good at dressage that can watch from the ground & tell you what Bean looks like - it can really help a lot to have another pair of eyes.

Also - need to ask again exactly how you are asking for an outline - I have a rearer myself & found that I needed to take a different approach with him than any of my other horses as he has a supersensitive mouth

Edit - sorry cross posted - you have just answered my above question.

OK - My rearer is very fussy with his head, he will not accept me tweaking the reins in any way, he just spins & rears!

Instead I half halt with my seat & legs with only a tiny adjustment on the reins & then immediately push him forwards, keeping the contact but not holding him back, this encourages him to raise his back & come through more from behind
 
It could the 'tweaking' with the reins that is annoying her. You should have a still hand with a allowing contact. The horse must be ridden from the leg in the first instance. Exercises such as loops, circles, shoulder fore etc with a change in bed, support from the outside rein and leg with a forward leg aid will put the horse onto the bridle rather than almost cheating and using too much hand.

I would also add that if the horse is inclined to stand up it may well do this in draw reins and could result in a disaster!
 
Thank you, will lay off the draw reins then.
Once she will go in the blo**y trailer then i will take her to my instructor Peter Coe. Currently i have my friend who has owned her dressage gelding for 10 years, so i do have a good pair of eyes on me
smile.gif
 
Just remember outline isnt the most important thing when it comes to dressage. Is she a baby? If you dont mind me saying from your pictures she looks quite weak in her neck, so outline will be very hard-work for her, no matter how much ability she has! Could you hack her to somewhere to use a school? Then you could have lessons there & it will remove the rush to get her loading!
 
Six months is plenty of time for a back to go wrong. And was it a vet or a qualified dentist who did her teeth?
I don't think that most vets do a decent job on teeth. I had a horse doing exactly what yours does even though he'd had his teeth done every six months, stupidly by a non BEVA registered dentist, and was checked by a vet, who found nothing. I had the backman look at him and he found a bone splint (like a rogue tooth) growing sideways and upwards into his cheek. I had a rotational fall XC with him because of it, my poor bliddy horse had been in pain for two or so years with this, and it took my backman to find it. He had ongoing back problems because when a horse tries very hard to evade a bit because of pain, the tension causes problems in the back. My backman said to me that 80% of all horses he treated had back issues because their teeth were bad.
I think you said the previous owner had him checked, so for your own peace of mind, and to give her a chance, I'd have her looked at again.
I'm not saying that she isn't taking the mick, but I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and have her checked.
 
God, this thread is moving fast...!!

I'd echo everyone about lungeing and no draw reins. And especially a still hand. You cannot force her into a contact, she has to learn to offer you one. It takes time and a lot of patience, if they are difficult mares can also be far more reactive to leg pressure than geldings can. I'm not sure why, but they are.
I think the trailer loading is a separate issue to the riding. One could be strop, the other could be pain or lack of comprehension. If horses don't want to do something, they have their established ways to say 'no'. It doesn't mean that the cause is one and the same.
I still think your best bet is a professional rider/instructor coming to see what's happening.
 
To me, it sounds like you are focusing on the head too much. What happens if you keep an even contact whilst riding forward into it?
 
well, keep going with it, transitions, even contact (no 'see sawing however mild!) and riding forward. I wouldn't worry about too fast to begin with as you can slow down once she starts to relax.
However, I'm not all that experienced, I can only tell you waht works for me
 
From that picture her contact is forced, your hands are fixed and too low and you are forcing her into a contact, not being rude she obviously isn't using her hindquarters properly cos she is lacking muscle on them
 
I have had the same problem..its pretty much solved now though. My horse needed lots of physio and is very fussy with bits and heavy hand. We also had him ex-rayed ect (and had a problem in his hock) We found out he likes copper roller best. I found longreining helped him to stretch his back and then when i am on him i can get him to stretch and gently bring his nose in and then, hte hard bit, bringing him off the forehand by using leg with help from a schooling whip for impulsion. He was also really under muscled so did a lot of hillwork to help that. Yours looks like he could use some 'muscle building' and also polework is good because they round themselves. Do you jump her?
I also used draw reins, harbridge and bungies to help him find his outline with helped a bit, but then i hate doing it artificially! Recently i found my lower leg contact helps.
Do you have a flat bit of field you can school in or maybe mark one out?
Good luck let us know what you do and if it works!
 
if you want to do dressage stick with the snaffle, and use draw reins as a last resort. unless you are supervised by some one who knows what they are doing.

i would surgest lunging 2 times a week in a pessoa as this will encourage her to work from behind, and correctly

getting them into an outline is not just the head, they should be working well from behind.
 
Personally think your probably better off working on her fitness than using a stronger bit. I would keep to the snaffle if I am honest.

Also make sure you have good impulsion when asking for an outline, as otherwise it is a false outline which actually means that there head is tucked underneath them, but they are not using themselves.

Pickle throws his head around if I try and ask for an outline with contact basically, and prefers a looser contact. I only ever spend short amounnts of time working in an outline as he just doesnt have the muscle to sustain an outline
 
Without seeing her it sounds like other wise people have said, first get her back and teeth checked. If all ok crack on. Get her walking out - really walking out remind her what forward is, a major problem in a lot of 'problem' horses i've been sent. Uping the bit is a last resort, the french link is a nice comprimise. Then, no offense, get your leg on and make her ride into your hand, not fixed a nice soft shoulder to elbow to a soft hand, if she dose'nt listen bring the hand out to the side to remind her about flexion! x

P.S Bean - great name I can see a foal being named that!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happens if you keep an even contact whilst riding forward into it?

[/ QUOTE ]
She rushes forward looking like a giraffe
smirk.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what happens to every horse who isn't used to a contact asking something of them which probably hasn't been asked before. Give it time and patience.
 
she looks to be on her forehand, which could be caused by lack of muscle in the back. if you work on transitions and lots of turning, it will help her support herself. also long reining might help as it will make her take the bit forward...
also lots of hillwork will build up her hindquarters so then she is able to work through her back a bit more. for the rein back, if she does mini rears and not actually not heart stopping vertical ones, it might be worth just preservering as then she will learn that rearing does not stop work. place two poles on the ground and reverse up, as mine used to mini rear just to evade moving though his bak but i made him and he started to listen to me.
just work on moving her bum under you, and ask for more engaement behind. try 2 poles on the ground at a 90 degree angle, and ask for her to step out over the poles by pushing her out with your inside leg.
if you ask for her to carry more weight on her hind, then she will find it easier to go in the correct outline!

hope it helps!
 
It sounds to me as if you are concentrating too much on getting her front end into what you think is an outline, and not on how her whole body is working. A horse can't work in a true outline unless they are relaxed and working properly from behind, with good engagement. Draw reins don't give you an outline, they just force the head and neck into a shape, which isn't the same thing. A horse can work in an outline without any tension (contact) in the rein at all, if the rest of the body is going along correctly.
Why don't you see if you can find an instructor who can visit you to help? I would really go for a classical rider, but that's my personal preference, you could have a look on the Enlightened Equitation website to see if there is someone in your area.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top