Help on law of Abandonment/Fly grazing notice

[advocate66]

Hi Everyone,
I'm wondering if anyone can help.
Last year a bunch of horses was taken under the guise of Abandonment/Fly grazing notice.

The people in question had an agreement with the landowner for livery and grazing and the rent was agreed no contract.
The horses moved on the 8th of the month and the rent was to be due on the 8th of the following month. During this time the landowner would not pass over his banking details so said rent could be paid and for him to give us a bill and receipt. We again went to see the landowner on the 8th he wasn't home. On the 9th we again went to his house but as we arrived another livery chained the gate not allowing us access to our horses. We confronted the landowner and he said he would email us over his bank details so we could get our rent paid of which he did not. Next thing we know an abandonment notice was put on the gate and hand delivered to our house. The notice had not been executed correctly the police was not informed and more importantly our horses had not been abandoned.
A few days later the other livery on the yard had seized our horses and had found them homes. A few days after that the landowner then made a deed of gift to the other livery. The other livery had used a false address on the deed of gift and it was not third party witnessed. What was the landowner actually gifting they had already been stolen days before.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

Please understand, yes police involved (still on going) and as you can all guess this story has many twists and turns.

So what I am asking is what the landowner did lawful?
Can another livery just take the horses?

Any help would be appreciated

 

[Polos Mum]

The BHS website has a really clear step by step process - if they followed that then yes it's legal. I think they only need to tell the police if they don't know who the owner is. As they did and they served the notice on you then no need to involve the police.

I'm guessing more to this story but the link below is really clear on the law.

https://www.bhs.org.uk/advice-and-information/the-law/abandonment-and-fly-grazing

If the police won't get involved then you can try a specialist solicitor but legal advice from random people on the internet will not help you.

 

[advocate66]

The BHS website has a really clear step by step process - if they followed that then yes it's legal. I think they only need to tell the police if they don't know who the owner is. As they did and they served the notice on you then no need to involve the police.

I'm guessing more to this story but the link below is really clear on the law.

https://www.bhs.org.uk/advice-and-information/the-law/abandonment-and-fly-grazing

If the police won't get involved then you can try a specialist solicitor but legal advice from random people on the internet will not help you.

Thank you, yes there is more to the story

 

[Shilasdair]

OP, you need to seek legal advice rather than asking forumites.
If you are a Gold member of the British Horse Society, perhaps their legal helpline would point you in the right direction.
Good luck in getting this resolved.

 

[advocate66]

OP, you need to seek legal advice rather than asking forumites.
If you are a Gold member of the British Horse Society, perhaps their legal helpline would point you in the right direction.
Good luck in getting this resolved.

Thank you for your reply.
It is complicated and in all honesty I am not well adverse in equine laws and acting as an advocate.
Looking at what's happened, I'm shocked that a landowner can with hold his bank details and stop access then apply a notice. This could lead to any landowner/livery taking horses on the guise of the abandonment notice.

I am ploughing through the bhs site

 

[FestiveG]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but if you were already aware that the landlord was iffy about giving you the bank details, I think I would have given him cash, got a receipt and then moved the horses as soon as possible.

 

[AmyMay]

Just get a solicitor ??‍

 

[dorsetladette]

OP you really need to be seeking legal advise.

I've had to issue abandonment notices. It is advised that you contact the police and tell them in case there is any breach of the peace but the land owner doesn't have to inform them if he didn't want to at the time.

But also I'd just like to note that abandonment can happen even if the rent is paid.

 

[advocate66]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but if you were already aware that the landlord was iffy about giving you the bank details, I think I would have given him cash, got a receipt and then moved the horses as soon as possible.

The people involved was looking for a new place, as someone on his yard was causing problems. All this happened in a month. In short, they moved on the 8th and the 9th the other livery(person) chained the gate stopping access and moved the horses out out of sight. They didn't avoid rent payment. The other livery(person) was telling the landowner not to accept payment. All the dates on this handmade notice don't add up. I'm trying to help these people who its happened to. There must be things in place to protect horse owners as well as the landowners.

 

[ester]

I'm surprised they didn't take the chain off and take the horses after the abandonment notice had been served.

I'm finding the dates a little confusing, so they moved on on the 8th (of say january) but were paying rent a month in arrears? and after that month, on the 8th Feb the gate was padlocked and then an abandonment notice served. But they had been attending the horses daily for the month they were there?

 

[advocate66]

I'm surprised they didn't take the chain off and take the horses after the abandonment notice had been served.

I'm finding the dates a little confusing, so they moved on on the 8th (of say january) but were paying rent a month in arrears? and after that month, on the 8th Feb the gate was padlocked and then an abandonment notice served. But they had been attending the horses daily for the month they were there?

Yes the agreement was move in on the 8th rent to be paid on the 8th. Notice put on the 11th (handmade notice) which went over a weekend, horses then taken on the 14th, then deed of gift made on the 17th (using false address).
They were attending to the horses daily, the land owner has another job and not always home.
There must be rights for he horse owner.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes the agreement was move in on the 8th rent to be paid on the 8th. Notice put on the 11th (handmade notice) which went over a weekend, horses then taken on the 14th, then deed of gift made on the 17th (using false address).

Please can you put the full dates in your posts inc the month & year, it's difficult to keep track.

 

[meleeka]

Yes the agreement was move in on the 8th rent to be paid on the 8th. Notice put on the 11th (handmade notice) which went over a weekend, horses then taken on the 14th, then deed of gift made on the 17th (using false address).
They were attending to the horses daily, the land owner has another job and not always home.
There must be rights for he horse owner.

it’s theft then and the owners need to pursue that through a solicitor and report it as such to the police.

 

[PurBee]

What a sneaky way to steal horses and then profit from their sale!
The audacity of the scam!

Agree - involve police (as reported theft of horses that were daily being looked after, and NOT abandoned) and legal help.

 

[Jenko109]

Doesn't add up.

If you chained my horses in when I had done absolutely nothing wrong and issued me an abandonment notice, I would either cut the chain or damage a fence and remove them!

 

[ester]

but anticipate the police saying it's a civil matter.

 

[Polos Mum]

OP this isn't a way to steal horses - there is more to the story but I appreciate it might not be appropriate to share on here.

I think you are saying they were 'abandoned' within a week of arriving. so 8th arrived and by 17th (of the same month) 'stolen' and sold.

If I moved my horses to a new yard and then a few days later found the gate chained and abandonment notice I would inflict criminal damage on the gate and lead them away then and there - begging favours and paying whatever £££'s needed from whoever I needed to in order to find them somewhere more sane.

I'd be expecting a visit from the police to explain the gate damage but that's a conversation I'd be happy to have.

Perhaps the land owner was owed money from the horse owners, perhaps the owners owed money to previous yard that the land owner was getting back from them, perhaps 100 other scenarios. None of which anyone other than a solicitor can advise you on.

TBH if this is for real, I think I'd 'steal' mine back from whoever they were 'sold' to and let them deal with the police / solicitors - given it's only been a few days I would have all records to show they were mine. I'd put the onus on the new owners to prove they weren't - although sad if they are innocents caught up in a total mess.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There was a similar ish story locally, and there was quite a back story to the actions of both parties. The police had to post on FB that they were aware of the comings and goings, but that after investigations they found that it was a civil matter.

 

[Bellaboo18]

So my understanding is. On the 8th of one month the horses moved on to this land the month after on the 17th so 6 weeks later still no rent had been paid?

On top of this on the 11th an abandonment notice was put up and the owners did nothing for the next 3 days?

As others have said, if someone put an abandonment notice up on my horses field, horses that I was caring for twice daily i'd be removing them the same day.

Nothing adds up here. Was there concern about the horses welfare? Why couldn't the rent be paid in cash? Why weren't the horses moved?

 

[dorsetladette]

So my understanding is. On the 8th of one month the horses moved on to this land the month after on the 17th so 6 weeks later still no rent had been paid?

On top of this on the 11th an abandonment notice was put up and the owners did nothing for the next 3 days?

As others have said, if someone put an abandonment notice up on my horses field, horses that I was caring for twice daily i'd be removing them the same day.

Nothing adds up here. Was there concern about the horses welfare? Why couldn't the rent be paid in cash? Why weren't the horses moved?

OP states that it all happened last year - its a long time to wait to start sorting the issue out. I'm thinking there is a lot more to the story. Horses would of been in their new homes a few months now.

 

[ycbm]

Is anyone else finding this thread ridiculous?

How on earth can we comment meaningfully when half the story is being withheld?

None of what we know makes sense. It defies belief that an abandonment notice was served and someone didn't just get the gate open and take them away.,
.

 

[advocate66]

Just get a solicitor ??‍

There goes the problem funds, as it always is.

 

[advocate66]

I'm surprised they didn't take the chain off and take the horses after the abandonment notice had been served.

I'm finding the dates a little confusing, so they moved on on the 8th (of say january) but were paying rent a month in arrears? and after that month, on the 8th Feb the gate was padlocked and then an abandonment notice served. But they had been attending the horses daily for the month they were there?[/

OP you really need to be seeking legal advise.

I've had to issue abandonment notices. It is advised that you contact the police and tell them in case there is any breach of the peace but the land owner doesn't have to inform them if he didn't want to at the time.

But also I'd just like to note that abandonment can happen even if the rent is paid.

Thank you for your reply.. The horses were not abandoned, what it does look like is theft by deception. As there must be rights for the horse owner as there is for the landowner as there should be. Unfortunately there was no contract, I am told correct me if I'm wrong its usually verbal agreements that take place on yards.
When I looked at the notice, i wasnt sure if you had to inform the police or not, but you have clarified that for me thank you

 

[SantaVera]

why, on the day after you moved the horses to the land and discovered a locked gate and couldnt see the horses did you not inform the Police ? If they had been mine at this point I would have reported them to the Police as stolen. WHo paid or didnt pay rent or when seems irrelivant at this point. on day 2 ie the day after moving them to the ground I would have had the Police round talking to the livery yard/field owner about what was going on. Things could have been resolved then and there and you could have removed your horses if bank details for livery were not forthcoming.

 

[ester]

I don't know of a yard that doesn't have a written agreement.

 

[advocate66]

What a sneaky way to steal horses and then profit from their sale!
The audacity of the scam!

Agree - involve police (as reported theft of horses that were daily being looked after, and NOT abandoned) and legal help.

The police are involved but saying cival when its clearly theft by deception

 

[advocate66]

why, on the day after you moved the horses to the land and discovered a locked gate and couldnt see the horses did you not inform the Police ? If they had been mine at this point I would have reported them to the Police as stolen. WHo paid or didnt pay rent or when seems irrelivant at this point. on day 2 ie the day after moving them to the ground I would have had the Police round talking to the livery yard/field owner about what was going on. Things could have been resolved then and there and you could have removed your horses if bank details for livery were not forthcoming.

Police where involved and did nothing. I agree it should not of gone as far as it did.

 

[Equi]

Most places take payment a month in advance, not areers. Perhaps your client misunderstood that and the yards owner is now seeking recompense for two months rent not one.

no point getting into it on here if the whole story can’t be told.

but as far as I’m aware abandonment needs 14 days after the notice and the owners need to have no been findable or not been in contact for those 14 days. If they have, the abandonment is void and it is then a claim for unpaid livery - which if there is no written contract would be down to small claims court. The horses shouldn’t be part of this at all really.

 

[ester]

It's 2 weeks in northern ireland, 96 hours here

• The person detaining the horse must then continue to detain it for a total period of four working days (96 hours), this does not include weekends or bank holidays.

 

[advocate66]

Is anyone else finding this thread ridiculous?

How on earth can we comment meaningfully when half the story is being withheld?

None of what we know makes sense. It defies belief that an abandonment notice was served and someone didn't just get the gate open and take them away.,
.

Because its on going with the police I cannot give full details out. I was trying to work out can a land owner stop you getting access to your equine (the horses were moved by another livery on the land owners yard). But I have now emailed the BHS and hopefully, they can help on this. I did not put this thread up to confuse you so I apologise for that.

 

[ycbm]

Because its on going with the police

Even more reason why you should not be discussing this with strangers on a forum.

How on earth do you expect anyone to give you meaningful advice if you can't or won't give the full details? For all we know the horses were hat racks and stolen by someone well meaning, for their safety. Or taken by someone in a relationship that's gone sour who believes they own them morally. It could be absolutely anything.
.