HELP- Perfect horse except for INSANE separation/pair bond issues!

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Arkmiido

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I have had this horse for a couple of months, complicated story as to why. He is a 16.2 Rhinelander with incredible bloodlines, movement to die for and he is a perfect gentleman in every way (basically, he's worth the problems). Came over from germany aged 5, he is now 10, not done a huge amount in the interim 5 years! He hacks alone/ in company, schools, jumps etc etc. He will come in and stand on the yard alone quite happily if no other horses are in view. He stands perfectly (and stables) with other horses in with him. However, if you take his 'friend' away from him ie 2 horses on yard and you turn the other one out, he gets very anxious - this involves snaking/weaving on the rope, poo everywhere, calling, pawing the ground, rearing... and it doesn't stop, it gets more and more frenzied. If he is in a stable while doing this, he runs at the walls and door (box -walking is an understatement) and has almost pinned me to the wall in his 'red mist' moments. He goes across his stable in one stride, calling frantically.
HOWEVER..if I am holding him while other horse is taken away, there is no issue. He stands, respects my space, will back up and come forward etc. I can lead him away from the yard while the horse is being taken away, no problems. :)
I can now 'get into his space' while he is tied up, and he just continues the mania around me - previously he just wouldn't see me and I would have been squished... Now if I square up to him, he won't run me over, just.. If I untie him and hold him, I make the ground rules very clear - MY SPACE, and he gets schooled (by backing up) for moving in any direction (sounds harsh, but its fair...) We also do head lowering exercises. Calm, relaxed horse.
Tie him up again immediately, Mental pony!:rolleyes:

I want to make it clear that he arrived with these issues - I haven't caused them, and he's better than he was. I wonder if they stem from traumatic weaning or being locked in a stable... I suspect the only real option is to "manage" his issues by working around them - ie don't take another horse away. He lives out in a chilled out herd, will be stabled with company at night in winter.
When I hacked him out with a friend from a different yard, we went separate ways to go home and he didn't even look or call, and he would be like this with his best buddy from home too if we split on the ride - Surely if it was true separation anxiety, it would occur under saddle and in hand? The same problem occurs if he is the other side of a fence to his friends, even if they are right next to him, because it triggers the second they step away from him. He runs the fence line until he drops, and then he runs it some more. He won't settle if I 'just leave him long enough'... sadly!
I wonder if he has had his behaviour indulged or at least, reinforced, by previous handler(s) being shocked by his level of anxiety and immediately bringing the friend back! I have tried taking horse away, then bringing back when he settles - but he is settled if I am holding him, but remains insane when tied up, so there is no opportunity to reward the 'settling' except if I am holding him, which defeats the issue. Its got me a bit befuddled..

I have spoken to an IH RA about it, she thinks its probably a question of management, especially as its my yard so I can bring in as many or few horses as I like, as do other very experienced people who have seen him "in action". I'm sort of hoping for any suggestions or experiences, or ideas with homeopathy, stable mirrors, cross-tying? Food has NO EFFECT. Mag Calmer works a little bit on his overall level of "up" but no effect on his main issue. Also, I have no intention of trying the "it needs to learn the error of its ways" approach - I'm sure he's had enough "discipline" for his behaviour given the reaction when I happened to be walking past carrying my yard broom, and that sure hasn't worked either:eek:. Any ideas??:confused::confused:
 
If you are open to things like homeopathy, you could call a homeopathic vet. herbalist or Aromatherapy trained vets are also options (I'm not sure about aromatherapy but the herb and homeopathic ones they have to be a RCVS vet in order to treat the horse. however you can buy the products yourself and give it a go on your own horse, as long as its not at the expense of vet treatment). Reiki or Shiatsu are other options, and practitioners can operate with vets permission.

A less expensive option to try before that if you like is the bach flower remedies - all these type of approaches will work on him being mentally fit enough for it not to bother him so much, rather than physically restraining him. you can get hold of info about the various remedies online, and if you find one, two or three you think might be right for him, if you like you can PM me and I will dig out my book and let you know the in-depth explaination of each (which probably won't be available on t'internet) so you can decide which best fits what you see and know about him.

Have you tried rescue remedy?

ETS it sounds like a very specific fear - I wonder if something has happened to him in the past to cause this reaction - don't suppose you know it, do you? Any way of contacting previous owners?
 
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Hmm.

Stable mirrors: we got one for our mare when she was on box rest, she has sep. anx. but nowhere near as bad as yours. I have to say that she didn't pay any attention to the mirror, but I know 3 or 4 people who absolutely swear by them. Its worth a try at any rate. Word of warning though, search through google, because Robinsons etc sell them at a ridiculous price. Ours was about £40 I think.

I think its mostly a level of management tbh, he sounds like his problems are so deep seated. Have you tried getting an IH person out to work with him? Have you considered getting him a simple as companion who takes no work but can be left behind when you go out with him? Thinking a shettie or something like that. xxxx
 
flamehead said:
Hmm.

Stable mirrors: we got one for our mare when she was on box rest, she has sep. anx. but nowhere near as bad as yours. I have to say that she didn't pay any attention to the mirror, but I know 3 or 4 people who absolutely swear by them. Its worth a try at any rate. Word of warning though, search through google, because Robinsons etc sell them at a ridiculous price. Ours was about £40 I think.

I think its mostly a level of management tbh, he sounds like his problems are so deep seated. Have you tried getting an IH person out to work with him? Have you considered getting him a simple as companion who takes no work but can be left behind when you go out with him? Thinking a shettie or something like that. xxxx
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Think I will try the stable mirror idea - even if it doesn't work, its worth a try - maybe will also use it in the lorry if he likes it!!
My riding instructor is an IH RA and RWYM coach - she has seen him do it, and thinks its a question of management, not really sure where to go with him - I am already doing the ground work that she would do with him, and I have done a fair few of the IH courses, but its still got me stumped. Perhaps I should ask Kelly or Monty?! I think I'll write to the Listening Post!!
Its not really a problem for me as such, because I can bring him in ALONE and he ties up fine -its not being alone that does it, its the friend being taken away?! -
yes I have 7 shetlands, I used them as his babysitter when I first got him, but then realised the above.
TBH, I can "manage" him at home.. I'm going away with him for a week next week and the horse he will be stabled next to - that he won't know - will be taken away when their owner has lessons. My only option is to take him for a walk when this happens, I think.
 
To me this is perfectly normal horse behaviour- it's a pretty common problem and it's just best to avoid the situation as much as possible. It's not worth risking an injury, your horse is just being a normal horse.
 
My 4 year old displays almost identical behaviour. I can take him away from his field companion and if I stay with him on the lead rope he is fine. Tied up he is stressy, take companion out of the field and he goes mental galloping about neighing and threating to jump fence. If stay with him in the field he is ok, but then I can't ride my other horse, the field companion! Its a real dilemma isnt it . My youngster is unbroken, not going to be backed 'til next May so I will be a long time out of the saddle at this rate. I will be interested to see what advice is given here, certainly the only option I seem to have is to buy a shettie, but thats not possible as its another £50 per month for me, so until we move to our croft I am stuck with not being able to ride my old horse.
Good luck I hope you can get something sorted out soon.
 
I'm an aromatherapist, and one essential oil that is really fab for separation anxiety is neroli. You can buy this diluted to 3 or 5 % from holland and barret or boots. Let the horse sniff it, and if it wants a few licks, let it have some.

I also recommend rescue remedy - maybe add a few drops into a small feed ?

There is also a specific homeopathic remedy too, but can't remember the name, I'll look it up for you.

sm x
 
shysmum said:
I'm an aromatherapist, and one essential oil that is really fab for separation anxiety is neroli. You can buy this diluted to 3 or 5 % from holland and barret or boots. Let the horse sniff it, and if it wants a few licks, let it have some.

I also recommend rescue remedy - maybe add a few drops into a small feed ?

There is also a specific homeopathic remedy too, but can't remember the name, I'll look it up for you.

sm x
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Thankyou, yes please! Will start shopping for this stuff asap!! The "small feed" would have to be given before the separation, as he won't eat while he's in his tizzy...
 
One of my client horses has a terrible pair bond (a reason why I'd never only keep 2 horses, but nevermind!). She was rush around her stable and try and climb out of her stable if he went out of sight, if in a field she will smash through any fence.

They bought her a stable mirror and it really is problem solved! She is absolutely fine. In fact she stands in her stable staring at it quite a lot!! ha ha!
 
Your horse sounds identical to my TB ex racehorse. He will stand on the yard on his own to be groomed, fed, tacked up, hacks out alone, is turned out alone but with others in sight and doesnt turn a hair. If he is left however, he goes ballistic, throwing himself around, kicking out and shouting to the point of being dangerous. I keep him in a very small DIY yard with one other person who has several horses and she is extremely good, he is never left out alone and is never the last one to be turned out. Like you, I dont think he will change completely and I dont think there is much to be gained by forcing the issue, it is the only "if" I have found with him, in all other ways he fits the bill of perfect gentleman and happy hack, brilliant in traffic etc. This is his 3rd season with me and he is now calmer and more settled than ever. I have him on a low dose of magnesium and also this summer have started feeding brewers yeast which has helped to settle his runny tum. Ive been told that BY does have a slight calming effect as well so wonder if by settling his tum and feeding him no sugars or starch at all we may see an improvement this winter. I hope so because I hate to see him panicking, that is what it looks like, almost a blind panic so Im sure that the reasons are deep seated and as someone already said, it is natural horse behaviour not to want to be left alone. Good luck with helping him, sounds like a lovely horse.
 
I agree with the stable mirror - I think this has a good chance of working. I dont have a personal experience, however, my friend's horse was similar to yours. She opted for the stable mirror and it worked wonders!
 
TheMule said:
To me this is perfectly normal horse behaviour- it's a pretty common problem and it's just best to avoid the situation as much as possible. It's not worth risking an injury, your horse is just being a normal horse.
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With all due respect, this is not normal - especially for a horse who was "bred in captivity" - who has been handled and stabled daily since a baby etc. His reactions are very extreme, and he thinks nothing of endangering himself or people. I understand that herd instinct is very strong and that there is a survival imperative to remain with the herd. I own 11 horses, and have had a livery yard full of neds including nutty ex racers, who show some similar traits, but nothing anywhere near as extreme as this.:confused: His behaviour is beyond that - it has specific "triggers" which only occur while stabled or tied up - true separation anxiety would also occur under saddle and in hand. And its not that me being there pacifies him - if anything, he's worse if I just stand with him or near him. But as soon as I take control of him ie hold the lead rope, he stops. Doesn't help me much if I have to groom him or do anything else with him though!
 
You know when you know what it is you want (book) but you don't know where it is ? I will find it, and give you the name of that homeopathic remedy. Another idea is to spray watered down lavender oil in the stable.. Rescue remedy three times a day if you can, same with neroli. If not twice a day will be fine.

I'll keep looking anyway. sm x
 
Found the book in my homeopathy drawer - DUH ! Its called ARSEN.ALB. I would give 6 pillules three times/twice a day, gradually reducing as the symptoms improve over a few weeks.

I would try the neroli and rescue remedy first, then go for this if that still ain't working, otherwise you won't know what is working , if that makes sense.
 
I will be interested in the results of this, as very similar to mine. Perfect horse, never nappy, will separate from horse on a ride no problem, but goes bonkers if he can't see or be with his companion. When he was on box rest and his friend was turned out in the yard so they could touch over the stable door, he would go frantic if the pony went out of sight for an instant. He has a stable mirror, but that doesn't help much. Strangely he is quite fine if stabled at a show for instance, with horses all around him. I just manage it as best I can and make sure he always has a companion ( I don't want him galloping down the drive and jumping the cattle grid again, as he did once when turned out alone!)
 
Right... thanks everyone! Hopefully some of these things will work... have to wait for them to arrive now...


Stable mirror purchased (may be his "yard" mirror initially!)
Horse lorry Mirror purchased.
Neroli purchased.
Rescue remedy purchased
Arsen.alb purchased.
Maybe some of these could work on me?!
Next stop, psychic healer.... or just have this one shot and get a new one. (no, not really.)
Will post as to whether any of the above seem to work - I will be conducting my own experiment on little Leo, and I will try not to use them in combination! I just hope he doesn't bond with mirror...
 
crockshard said:
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I suspect the only real option is to "manage" his issues by working around them - ie don't take another horse away. He lives out in a chilled out herd, will be stabled with company at night in winter.


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This would be my approach, as this is your own yard and I can't see that it will cause too many problems, so long as the other horse will wait quietly in the stable. remember as well that you have only had him a couple of months, as he gets to know the place, you and his new companions better he may well become more 'chilled'.
 
It should improve as he relaxes more into his herd. A couple of months isn't a long times for his kind of horse to truely accept that the herd will still be there later. It suspect it has a lot to do with the way he was kept in the past - his behaviour is one of the reasons I would never keep a horse alone: it produces problems like his.

My horse was like this when we moved to a new yard - he couldn't deal with being 'alone'. 'Alone' in his head mean being tied up or left in a stable. He wasn't 'alone' when I was holding him or riding him, nor when he made the choice to leave the others. It is true serparation anxiety, it's just he likes humans enough that they class as an acceptable (if not desirable) alternative. It took my boy a good couple of months to settle, and it wasn't until he made new proper friends that he relaxed.

You will just have to manage it as best you can. Do practise taking other horses away as much as possible, but make sure you are there holding him and work him until he calms down again, then retie him. Over time it should slowly improve.
 
Just thought I'd give a bit of an update after our week away with Mary Wanless... Aside from the ripping a shoe off in the lorry and finding him hanging from his haynet by the other shoe (20 minutes from home!) we got there without further issue.
When there, he was stabled next to another horse that he bonded to immediately. Due to a scheduling mishap, his buddy was put in the lesson before him, and he was going mad in his stable, running at the walls and calling, poo every where, even though there were other horses 20 yards away. Nightmare situation. So I had an idea, which I don't know why I didn't think of before, based on the fact that he is fine when held in hand, and I have done lots of IH-based ground work with him. I needed a middle ground - tying him up still resulting in the rearing, snaking and shrieking, making it very difficult to tack up, and also very disruptive for the whole yard, and the other riders having their lessons!!
So... I ground-tied him.
The signal is the dropped lead rope, and I therefore schooled him with the dually by backing him up, or bringing his head back to the centre, or asking him to lower his head every time he even thought about moving, raising his head, or calling. Within minutes, his attention was totally on me, and I rewarded this by lots of sighing, rubbing his ears, massaging him and scratching him, making being totally still and calm a nice place to be, and reprimanding every movement the second it happened.
Pretty soon, I could leave him "tied" with the rope dangling over the stable door, or facing the back of his stable. At first, he was fine all the time he could see me - I could walk away and come back, and he remained totally stationary, or if there was a movement, I corrected it. I had to give him the opportunity to make the mistake, in order to correct it. After a little while of increasing the time and distance from him further and further, I went and sat in the covered school and he kept watching me. No one who had seen his histrionics, including Mary, could believe the difference in him - his eyes were soft, his head lowered, and there was silence on the yard!!

Now I'm home, I am no longer going to tie him up - just ground tie him in the enclosed yard. It's a very different way of 'restraining' him, and I can't believe how well it has worked. It's like I have tied up his brain, rather than trying to restrict his body while his mind is still going loopy. It has also greatly improved how he responds to other horses being taken away when he is loose in his stable - but he is still only conditioned to the dropped rope to remain totally still. However, he paced much less when turned out alone, and I think this could really work as a way to begin to recondition him to being alone. The homeopathic and Bach remedies were great - he refused to touch them, so I was using the rescue remedy on myself, especially before all the jumping!
I'm also going to try this with my other horses, especially the manic shetland that paws the ground constantly while tied up!!
Sadly the stable and lorry mirrors arrived after I had left, so we are trying them today. I'm looking forward to introducing Leo to Leo!
 
We have that with our new gelding. Had him since feb and he hates to be left last in field or on his own and being seperated from our mare. She will follow him and calls to him and waits by the gate but if others in field she is fine and if on her own but can see others she will start to graze pretty quickly.

He is a different story however and charges up and down yelling and getting more and more wound up if she leaves the field even if he has company if he sees us coming he has to come too. We try to bring them seperately and let him stand in the stable on his own and travel places on his own to reduce this neediness he has as we know she will be settled on her own. We cannot leave him out though as he hurts himself being a stresshead but we are working on it!!
 
FWIW I have had excellent experience with stable mirrors. I had a very stressy mare who hated coming in by herself and even though I was sceptical I gave it a go and it was miraculous. Problem solved instantly.

I don't know if its like that for everyone but it certainly worked for her. Your lad sounds pretty extreme but she certainly had her moments too. She tried to jump the door one day when someone turned their horse out so maybe it'll work for you. I'd be interested to know!

I've changed on to a two year old now who is much more chilled but even so she seems to love the mirror too. Just looks at herself in it all day. It's the best £50 I've ever spent on a horse item. And I don't even work for the company which sells them can you believe :)
 
I would try the stable mirror as you have nothing to lose, but from your title I expected a MUCH bigger problem than this. A lot of horses suffer from separation anxiety to a much greater degree and it causes a much more serious problem. If he were mine I would live with it and just not expose him to the stress of it. You may find that as he becomes more confident in your bond he will settle all by himself.
 
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