Help please - new filly attacked by gelding

Box_Of_Frogs

Box_Of_Frogs

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I have 5 shetlands. 2 veteran rescued mares about 9hh, 3 miniature geldings (1 rescue and 2 show quality). To complete my 3 show minis, I bought a cute little strawberry roan fillly (Maddie) and she arrived yesterday. 2yrs old, never left the field she was born in before. Small stud kept fillies and mares separate from colts and stallions.

So Maddie spent her first night in my huge stable (equivalent of at least 5 stables joined lengthwise) with gentle veteran Lady. Quick sniff and they were fine together. Then today, 1 of my mini geldings, bottom of the pecking order, joined them in the paddock. Quick zoom round with gelding running after Maddie but all sorted within less than 30 seconds and the three settled down to graze. Brought them in at about 4pm, to spend the night stabled again only with the mini gelding joining them this time. All 3 settled down to tea though Maddie had hers a few feet away for unrelated reasons. Thank god I was still leaning on the outside gate to the stable when it all kicked off. With absolutely no warning the gelding suddenly attacked Maddie. She fled the length of the stable with him in close pursuit. Spun round at the far end and galloped back to the gate, did this again without stopping and it was clear the gelding was trying his hardest to bite Maddie badly. As she spun yet again to flee to the other end, I went back in to separate them pdq. As I did, the most awful pungent smell of urine hit the air - it was clear little Maddie had peed herself in terror. I was mortified. I have never ever known this before. Grabbed the gelding, headcollar on and I frog marched him to the field where the rest of the gang overnight. Poor, poor Maddie. I have never known a gelding (both same age) attack a filly with such malicious intent. They were fine in the field. There was no food around other than haynets. Thank god Lady checked Maddie over and they were standing close together when I got back. My experience is that a gelding will defer to a mare and I expected Maddie to kick his lights out if he got too friendly. Too friendly! Hah!

Is this abnormal behaviour from the gelding - he's very attitudinal even though he was the last one in before Maddie, bottom of the pecking order and a bit of a loner. Will this resolve itself given time and careful separation for as long as it takes? Or is this an indication that the gelding can never be trusted with Maddie? He's fine with the 2 veteran mares. I don't know where this behaviour has come from. Desperate for expert advice???
 
It may be the presence of your other mare Lady.
My mums warmblood is hideous with new horses, and we would never put him out with anyone new for weeks, until they got to know each other over a fence.
My mum bought another horse, and when we finally turned them out, he was lashing and biting (he meant it).
Removed his field chum (my shetland), and he settled after that ... Although they did skirt round each other.
We re-introduced the shetty after a week. Some horses and ponies are not as tolerant, but it will sort itself out with time and careful introductions.
Poor little Maddie,what an ordeal for her, especially after her big move :) glad she's got Lady to take her under her wing
 
In my experience of our 'herds' over the years, this is totally normal behaviour when introducing a new horse. However, we have never mixed geldings and mares (never had mares) but I don't necessarily think this is the issue here anyway.

They were probably fine outside as presumably there's more space so the new one can be kept a distance away without the gelding feel she's threatening his space or the space of the other mare.

I would just say introduce them slowly. If they are fine out in the field then keep doing that but don't put them back in the more enclosed situation of the stable area again.

You may find now the gelding's started this behaviour though he'l continue - often horses can be ok for the first day/few hours and then they kick off. If this gelding is bottom of the pecking order he may well be thinking this is his chacan nce to ensure he doesn't remain there and he can let this new filly know it. I would think he was trying to keep her away from his 'pal' (as in your other mare) even if they are not actually buddies usually.

We can never put any new horses straight in with any of ours (well, maybe the very old TB as he is a really wuss and nevre bullies anyone). The last new horse we introduced took 5 weeks of being separated and having slow introductions with the others before we could put them all together and even then my horse went in to attack mode and we had to separate them for another day!!

let the new fily get her confidence with the nice mare for now and then maybe consider starting some introductions again once the filly has settled in to the routine and the surroundings
 
I agree this sounds pretty normal. Its even more horribe when they gang up and take it in turns to chase new horse around, really scary. One reason why my horses won't live on livery yards unless I have complete control about who they are turned out with.
 
The gelding who is bottom of the pecking order? Pretty typical behaviour from a lower ranking. Sometimes when introducing a new pony, it can be the lower ranks which cause and can be in a bit of turmoil. He just wants to keep his place, albeit a low one and wants to let her know he is no pushover. It should settle down just keep an eye on things as I'm sure you will.
 
I think the introductions are happening a bit quickly, and it was too soon to put them in even a large stable together. The dynamics between 3 are very different to how it works between 2. I'd say take a bit step back. Put the old mare and the filly in a paddock beside the others for at least a couple of weeks before doing more introductions, and as they seem fine, let them have the stable to themselves.
 
Tormenta said:
The gelding who is bottom of the pecking order? Pretty typical behaviour from a lower ranking. Sometimes when introducing a new pony, it can be the lower ranks which cause and can be in a bit of turmoil. He just wants to keep his place, albeit a low one and wants to let her know he is no pushover. It should settle down just keep an eye on things as I'm sure you will.
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This.

Classic bottom ranker behaviour.
I would introduce the other mare before the geldings. Create a girly herd where your new girl feels safe.
Introduce the bottom ranker last to ensure he realises she is part of the new gang who all outrank him and she feels confident in the herd.
 
I have just re-read your post and realised that you put them all in together in the stable for tea (When I first read I thought they were all in the field), don't feed them together in an enclosed space until the herd dynamics have settled down.

I usually introduce mine quite quickly though because I have an excellent herd boss who looks after any newies and sorts out anyone else who tries any trouble, I always introduce him to them first because it then ensures they will be looked after.
 
Thanks everyone. I started with 1 shetland and the herd has grown slowly over the last 2 years. Never, ever had any problems before - just popped new pony in with the rest, expecting the newbie to be pushed out to the edges of the herd for a few days, nothing more. Always worked perfectly. And when the 3 came into the huge stable for tea before settling down for the night, I waited with them while they ate. The problem came AFTER they'd eaten, while all was peace and calm. Sorry if you think it was a basic schoolboy error. I'm just trying to learn here and, as asked, to understand whether this is normal or aberrant behaviour because, obviously, the way I deal with it will be dictated by that. It's clear from everyone's replies (huge thankyou) that it's fairly normal, more so for a bottom ranker. Some good advice too has led me to plan to electric fence the paddock and get them all out together, but safely divided, asap because only then can familiarity begin. Also, I'm going to do the same with the stable, split it until I'm happy it's safe to open it up again. They're all my ponies and I have complete say about what happens to them and how...they have their own separate grazing...livery yard yes but superb YO and everything starts with horse and pony welfare. I'm gutted I let that happen to Maddie though. As I said before, it's worse because I've never experienced it before. All new big horses that come to the yard are popped srtraight in with the big herd. Never, ever been an episode of a newbie filly being chased down to the point of terror by a low ranking gelding (or mare come to that). Usually just a bit of jostling, newbie pushed to the edge for a few days, all sorted. Though to be fair, new horses of course have their own stable. It was the chasing to the point of making Maddie pee herself in terror that I was asking about, not just ordinary chase-and-bite.

Onwards and upwards, still with a sad heart because it's very hard to even LIKE a pony that has shown such unwarranted aggression. Thanks again.
 
It was the chasing to the point of making Maddie pee herself in terror that I was asking about, not just ordinary chase-and-bite.
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Because she had no escape route.

All new big horses that come to the yard are popped srtraight in with the big herd.
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But not in a stable together......
 
Box_Of_Frogs said:
Onwards and upwards, still with a sad heart because it's very hard to even LIKE a pony that has shown such unwarranted aggression. Thanks again.
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I know how you feel, it can be disturbing for us to witness behaviour like this but it is completely natural. Fights amongst lower ranking horses can be absolutely more vicious and determined than any amongst high ranking horses. Always err on the side of caution. Sounds like you are sorting it out now though, good luck.
 
Amymay, yes, thankyou, of course she had no escape route in the stable but it hadn't been an issue in the paddock! No chasing at all! And yes, the big horses all have separate stables, exactly as I said in my post. Learning point for me = how vicious a low ranking fight can be. Never experienced it in 23 years of horses. And here's the latest instalment: rescued mini gelding went in the paddock today with new filly and veteran mare (instead of the original gelding). Settled in no time. Came into the stable exactly as the other lad had the previous evening. New filly fed a few feet apart. Rescued gelding finishes his feed first and looks hopefully at new filly's bowl. I let him tiptoe over to see if she'd share with him. But she swished her tail at him and shifted the weight on her hind legs and he politely turned round and went away. No chasing, no peeing, no nothing. Why the difference???
 
I experienced something similar for the first time this year. A gelding chasing my poor little mare until, what it seemed like, he had killed her! He was soo agressive and so intent on getting her, cornering her, taking chunks out of her (luckilg had a big heavyweight turnout on but that was completely destroyed!!) And even when we got involved to get her out, he just wasn't going to stop - very dangerous!!

Very scary to watch so I do feel for you! But dont love him any less, its just horses :)

I agree its a lot to do with him being bottom of the pecking order (gelding i am talking about was too) just keep him separate for a while and they should be fine.

You keep all your shetlands in the same stable? I am soon to be getting two weanling minis, they are from the same stud (born on the same day!) have grown up together and get on very well with each other. I want to stable them together, but how can I be sure they wont argue!? I will watch them for a long time before I leave them, but how likely is it that a fight will break out over night when Im not there??

And what is your reason for stabling your shetlands, just being nosy? :P

Sorry to hijack your thread!! :D
 
Box_Of_Frogs said:
Amymay, yes, thankyou, of course she had no escape route in the stable but it hadn't been an issue in the paddock! No chasing at all! And yes, the big horses all have separate stables, exactly as I said in my post. Learning point for me = how vicious a low ranking fight can be. Never experienced it in 23 years of horses. And here's the latest instalment: rescued mini gelding went in the paddock today with new filly and veteran mare (instead of the original gelding). Settled in no time. Came into the stable exactly as the other lad had the previous evening. New filly fed a few feet apart. Rescued gelding finishes his feed first and looks hopefully at new filly's bowl. I let him tiptoe over to see if she'd share with him. But she swished her tail at him and shifted the weight on her hind legs and he politely turned round and went away. No chasing, no peeing, no nothing. Why the difference???
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You have already been given this answer by myself and others. I do not mean to sound like I am repeating myself. However, the other gelding is of a different social standing in the herd, he also may be of a calmer nature. His future is not at risk should yet another horse enter the herd so he has not much of a quarrel with your new mare. It makes NO difference when it is a mixed group of mares and geldings. They will and can fight from the lower ranks. Your other little gelding did nothing wrong apart from try to defend what he was already used to and at a lower rank he will try to keep himself from being pushed about by a new introduction, mare or gelding.

Your mare is young, peeing, yes she was probably scared but they will do that when chased about and as AmyMay said, you gave her no escape route. Out in the paddock, the herd was there and plenty distance between them all, the catalyst was buckets of feed and an enclosed space.

Don't mean to be harsh but you went and risked it again! I don't care if it is Mini Shetlands or Warmbloods, the outcome could be the same with a cornering.
 
Okay, I know I am posting again but I feel I need to.

Amongst higher ranking horses, they often use very subtle body language. A toss of the head, the flick of an ear, raising or lowering the neck, the subtle turn of their body, swish of a tail. They don't need to fight to survive in domestic circumstances so it is rare you get a head on fight between two high ranking horses. However, a low ranking mare or gelding has a lot to lose, last in to feed, last to be accepted for a groom, last to be accepted at a round bale of hay, last to get the strip of grass exposed by their owners, last to be allowed that nice bit of shelter when it is pouring rain, always last.

That is why what just happened with you along with a couple of other factors, happened.
 
Just because they're small, it doesn't mean that they don't need the same sensitive introductions that larger horses get, and an escape route. It's no ideal to throw horses straight into an established group, but at least in a large enough field they have room to get away if there are problems. If the stable is so big, and you have to put 3 or more in there, why not partition it off to make the process more gradual?
 
Did it again because I know the 2nd little lad has no issues whatsoever. And it all went like clockwork as I expected it to. And the herd wasn't with them in the field the first time, just the veteran mare, new filly and then the gelding. And there was NO feed in the stable when the attack happened. Thanks everyone, much appreciated, really, but all I was wanting to know was whether this behaviour was or can be fairly common because I haven't ever seen it in almost a quarter century of horse riding/ownership. And the proof of the pudding was that the 2nd little lad behaved impeccably. Yes, it will have been because the filly picked up on his different body language and felt confident enough to quietly tell him to back off. But strange why the 1st lad should turn so suddenly when there had been no inkling at all that there was friction.

My shetlands are stabled because they get rainscald easily and, taking a lead from my rescued lead shettie mare (who was the Christmas Day rescue on this Forum about 3 years ago) they can get sort of feral if not brought in and handled regularly. They come in for about 5 hours daily, summer and winter. In winter it gives them a chance to have rain rugs off, groom, check over, dry off, snooze, small feed, haynet. Just because ghastly winter weather won't kill a miniature shetland dosen't mean they have to like being constantly wet and cold. And a soaking wet shetland takes days to dry, even if you discount the ever present risk of rainscald. Most natives don't NEED stabling. Shetlands are no different. And you have to remember that the smaller body size an animal is, the quicker it loses body heat in relation to its size. Minis get cold, wet and miserable very quickly. Cold weather doesn't bother them one jot! The whole herd of 6 move today to a borrowed huge field for 2 weeks. They will still come in daily but filly and veteran mare will be separated within the same huge stable. Despite all this, I suspect that the low ranking lad may never be 100% round the filly. We'll see. Thanks again all.
 
Box_Of_Frogs said:
Did it again because I know the 2nd little lad has no issues whatsoever. And it all went like clockwork as I expected it to. And the herd wasn't with them in the field the first time, just the veteran mare, new filly and then the gelding. And there was NO feed in the stable when the attack happened. Thanks everyone, much appreciated, really, but all I was wanting to know was whether this behaviour was or can be fairly common because I haven't ever seen it in almost a quarter century of horse riding/ownership. And the proof of the pudding was that the 2nd little lad behaved impeccably. Yes, it will have been because the filly picked up on his different body language and felt confident enough to quietly tell him to back off. But strange why the 1st lad should turn so suddenly when there had been no inkling at all that there was friction.

My shetlands are stabled because they get rainscald easily and, taking a lead from my rescued lead shettie mare (who was the Christmas Day rescue on this Forum about 3 years ago) they can get sort of feral if not brought in and handled regularly. They come in for about 5 hours daily, summer and winter. In winter it gives them a chance to have rain rugs off, groom, check over, dry off, snooze, small feed, haynet. Just because ghastly winter weather won't kill a miniature shetland dosen't mean they have to like being constantly wet and cold. And a soaking wet shetland takes days to dry, even if you discount the ever present risk of rainscald. Most natives don't NEED stabling. Shetlands are no different. And you have to remember that the smaller body size an animal is, the quicker it loses body heat in relation to its size. Minis get cold, wet and miserable very quickly. Cold weather doesn't bother them one jot! The whole herd of 6 move today to a borrowed huge field for 2 weeks. They will still come in daily but filly and veteran mare will be separated within the same huge stable. Despite all this, I suspect that the low ranking lad may never be 100% round the filly. We'll see. Thanks again all.
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God knows how they ever manage on the Shetland Isles then!! Poor design of a horse going from your take on their ability to cope!
 
Rugged as well???

If you left their natural coats to grow, they probably would have the rain scald problem.

I can see why you want to handle them etc but Shetlands in rugs? Wow. I went to shetland a while back, little Shetland ponies in the rain, gale force winds etc, we're all lovely and toastie. Oh, and they have very few trees on the island, due to the winds, so little shelter.

Anyway, just voicing my gobby opinion, your ponies, up to you what you do with them.
 
I cant help feeling you have been given a hard time on this post for some reason Box Of Frogs. Hopefully you have had some explanations that make sense to you in terms of pecking order, but I can understand it must have been quite upsetting to see. Hopefully the issues with the gelding will resolve themselves as they are gradually introduced to each other :)
I cant really see how you look after them is anybody elses business personally, but from what you have said they sound extremely lucky to have ended up with you :). Good luck with the new little girl.
 
She may have been in season - some of ours are just finishing off - we have one mare and it appears that she wee's herself but infact she is "on heat" - or like others say it was the low ranking chap trying to hang onto his place.

At my last yard all new horses were just put in the field 30+ horses and were left to sort it out.##
 
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